Kafers in MGT

[captainjack23]

Well doc, in this case, I wasn't actually doing anything other than asking you a simple question.

No, you were asking if I'd call people that to their face. And also assuming that it's more acceptable here because "no doubt it's different in BC?". Actually no, it's the same in BC, because we're not bloody savages here.

You've admitted previously you don't grok the american touchiness about slavery and racist language, I was honestly curious if it simply wasn't as big a deal for you because of your background.

It would be nice if you stopped assuming that I was some kind of backward idiot.

For example, you've publicly (and politely) posted that you don't see what the problem is with Gurps transhuman love doll androids, both here and at SJG (and IIRC COTI). You attributed a chunk of the knee jerk heat you got from that to the exact issue I quoted, and peoples parochial issues. I actually acgreed awith you on the issue. Sorry if I thought that you might have the same position here.

Till, I'm going to do something that'll surprise you: I apologise for offending you; I don't think, and didn't mean to imply you are in any way a racist, or whatever that implied about BC.

I'd love to believe that, but given your history of wilfully riling me up I don't think I can. Either way, it was a stupid thing for you to say. And you harping on about how people who use it in a discussion context like this are somehow "smug intellectuals who are being contrarian and offensive behind a position of safety" is also insulting.

Actually, you were disparaging the audience of people who get offended, and I was agreeing.

If you took it personally, I'll just say that I've never accused you of being that kind of shallow contrarian, despite lots of intentional criticisms we've exchanged; and I'm not doing it there.

I'm not sure why why what I wrote about thos who offend out of knee jerk contrarianism is worse than you mocking people who are knee jerk offended by PC stuff, but whatever. You have convinced me that if I can write Kaffir, I can write nigger. Or that I should avoid both. So score that one if you want.


Still. If you cant even deal with an apology, we're done.

No, you're not a racist, and I'm sorry if you thought that's what I said; but obviously you want to make your insulted feelings the centerpiece of the discussion. I'm trying to get beyond our history, but that isn't happening today, I guess.


EDIT:

changed description of love doll at the request of the good doctor.

 

[rust]

Since I have already heard German players mispronounce Kafer (they
were obviously unaware of its origin), I strongly support Käfer.

 

[rust]

Hey, Captain, EDG - I am trying to get something between your posts
to keep you from each other's throat, at least for a moment, but this
obviously does not work well enough. :wink:

 

[captainjack23]

So, lets just try somthing differnet if we have the chance.

Why though? Why change something that ain't broken?

Who here is actually going to be offended if they're still called Kafers? Who here ever even WAS offended while they were called Kafers for the past couple of decades that 2300AD has been around in some form or another? Anyone?

A handful of people at most have even raised the issue in the past. That is not enough for any sane publisher to warrant changing anything.

Before you jump on the "count noses to validate an argument train", consider this:
how many people really care that red giants have habitable planets, or that some world should be tidal locked and thus uninhabitable ?

How many people are really annoyed by small worlds with atmospheres?

A handful of people have raised the issue in the past. And no more than a handful of people here care, either. So, shall we drop this, too ?

Your position surprises me.

 

[captainjack23]

Hey, Captain, EDG - I am trying to get something between your posts
to keep you from each other's throat, at least for a moment, but this
obviously does not work well enough. :wink:

Hmmm. How 'bout a beer ? That always distracts me.

But yes, we've reached the "you're a racist for accusing me of being a racist for being offended about racism" stage.

My apologies to the audience. I shall self distract, as I can.

 

[rust]

I give it up and go to bed - you two have the most highly developed
ability to misunderstand each other in the worst possible way that I
have ever seen. :lol:

 

[EDG]

For example, you've publically and politely posted that you don't see what the problem is with Gurps transhuman love doll slavery here and at SJG. You attriburted a chunk of the knee jerk heat you got from that to the exact issue I quoted, and peoples parochial issues. Sorry if I thought that you might have the same position here.

Wow, way to misrepresent my positions ("woo! EDG is in favour of love doll slavery!"). WTF man, you're really on a roll today.

The actual issue, IIRC was that I wouldn't have a problem with using a bioroid for the purpose that it was created for (whatever that was - be it military, cleaning up rooms, sex toy, whatever). The problem that some people had was with the concept of using bioroids for anything at all because they're programmed to do a task and for their psychological wellbeing to be dependent on doing that task. So if you prevent them from doing so, you're actually causing them damage. Some viewed that as slavery, others didn't. All I said was that if they existed then I'd rather not cause them damage and allow them the right to do the task that they were created for (and I took great pains to point out that at no point would I ever treat a bioroid disrespectfully or abuse it).

As a result of that, I got a lot of crap from idiots like Whipsnade who decided to label me as "loathesome" or somesuch, just over a frakking hypothetical situation in a fictional RPG setting. :shock: :roll:

If you took it personally, I'll just say that I've never accused you of being that kind of shallow contrarian, despite lots of intentional criticisms we've exchanged; and I'm not doing it there.

I thought it was funny that you used that comparison, given that I'd just been using the word "nigger" in my post. It's not hard to see how you could have mentioned it purely as a dig at me. The thing with you is that you're not directly insulting, you just make snide insinuations.

 

[captainjack23]

Since I have already heard German players mispronounce Kafer (they
were obviously unaware of its origin), I strongly support Käfer.

I find myself unable to remember what an "a umlaut" sounds like.* Any hope of help ?




* i would like to apologise to my old german teacher, Frau Nichols for this, despite all her effort. I am deeply ashamed.

 

[captainjack23]

For example, you've publically and politely posted that you don't see what the problem is with Gurps transhuman love doll slavery here and at SJG. You attriburted a chunk of the knee jerk heat you got from that to the exact issue I quoted, and peoples parochial issues. Sorry if I thought that you might have the same position here.

Wow, way to misrepresent my positions ("woo! EDG is in favour of love doll slavery!"). WTF man, you're really on a roll today.

The actual issue, IIRC was that I wouldn't have a problem with using a bioroid for the purpose that it was created for (whatever that was - be it military, cleaning up rooms, sex toy, whatever). The problem that some people had was with the concept of using bioroids for anything at all because they're programmed to do a task and for their psychological wellbeing to be dependent on doing that task. So if you prevent them from doing so, you're actually causing them damage. Some viewed that as slavery, others didn't. All I said was that if they existed then I'd rather not cause them damage and allow them the right to do the task that they were created for (and I took great pains to point out that at no point would I ever treat a bioroid disrespectfully or abuse it).

As a result of that, I got a lot of crap from idiots like Whipsnade who decided to label me as "loathesome" or somesuch, just over a frakking hypothetical situation in a fictional RPG setting. :shock: :roll:

Which I defended you about. For those exact reasons.
Christ, sorry for that, I guess.
The point is that some topics cause irrationality. I cannot look at that issue and not see slavery; you can. Some people go mental about it. that's my point. The question is, does Mongoose want more of that baggage ?

If you took it personally, I'll just say that I've never accused you of being that kind of shallow contrarian, despite lots of intentional criticisms we've exchanged; and I'm not doing it there.

I thought it was funny that you used that comparison, given that I'd just been using the word "nigger" in my post. It's not hard to see how you could have mentioned it purely as a dig at me. The thing with you is that you're not directly insulting, you just make snide insinuations.[/quote]

Okay. You're doomed to be insulted, and, obviously, I can't change that if I can insult you by not being insulting, or just by my- I don't know, style ? Accent ? Spelling ? For someone who is intentionally supposed to rile you up, I sure seem to be apologising to you a lot.

Like I said, it seems that just the existence of my posts my offends you. Okay.

Nighty night. I'll change the "love doll slave" line as needed.

 

[EDG]

Before you jump on the "count noses to validate an argument train", consider this:
how many people really care that red giants have habitable planets, or that some world should be tidal locked and thus uninhabitable ?

How many people are really offended by small worlds with atmospheres?

A handful of people have raised the issue in the past. And no more than a handful of people here care, either. So, shall we drop this, too ?

Your position surprises me.

The difference is that nobody is offended by realism or the lack of it.

The argument here is that people might be offended by a word that doesn't look like an offensive word that it sounds similar to, and that explicitly doesn't even share the same meaning. But as a result of this, consideration is being given to changing that word.

So your comparison is utterly irrelevant to the discussion. It's nothing to do with numbers, and everything to do with the fact that the argument is ridiculous from the get-go.

 

[rust]

I find myself unable to remember what an "a umlaut" sounds like.* Any hope of help ?

Germans pronounce the "a" in "Kafer" like the "u" in "sub" (or "bug" ...)
and the "ä" in "Käfer" like the "a" in "bag".

 

[captainjack23]

The difference is that nobody is offended by realism or the lack of it.

I've removed the word "offended" to preserve the point which is this:

A handful of people at most have even raised the issue in the past. That is not enough for any sane publisher to warrant changing anything.

agree ?

 

[Sturn]

I give it up and go to bed - you two have the most highly developed ability to misunderstand each other in the worst possible way that I have ever seen. :lol:

I think EDG and CaptainJack should just go ahead and get married. At least they would then enjoy a tax break. :wink:

 

[captainjack23]

I give it up and go to bed - you two have the most highly developed ability to misunderstand each other in the worst possible way that I have ever seen. :lol:

I think EDG and CaptainJack should just go ahead and get married. At least they would then enjoy a tax break. :wink:

I'm already married, and I don't live in Utah........

Plus, domestic partners don't get the tax break, anyway.

 

[captainjack23]

I find myself unable to remember what an "a umlaut" sounds like.* Any hope of help ?

Germans pronounce the "a" in "Kafer" like the "u" in "sub" (or "bug" ...)
and the "ä" in "Käfer" like the "a" in "bag".

Thanks !

I'll go for an umlaut too. It makes a good metal group, also.

Or not. Its mongoose's call.

 

[rust]

I think EDG and CaptainJack should just go ahead and get married. At least they would then enjoy a tax break. :wink:

I do not have the impression that they would enjoy any kind of break. :wink:

 

[captainjack23]

I think EDG and CaptainJack should just go ahead and get married. At least they would then enjoy a tax break. :wink:

I do not have the impression that they would enjoy any kind of break. :wink:

Except of the neck variety. which actually sounds kind of relaxing at the moment. Personally, that is.

 

[EDG]

I've removed the word "offended to preserve the point which is this:

A handful of people at most have even raised the issue in the past. That is not enough for any sane publisher to warrant changing anything.

agree ?

No, because (for the second time) the number of people who may or may not have raised anything isn't the point.

The point is that the kafer/kaffir argument is a ridiculous one, and that people who are or could be offended by a word that isn't actually a totally different word with a different meaning aren't worth listening to. The fact that there aren't that many people who would be offended that way is a bonus.

And this applies regardless of how you phrase it, so hopefully you've got the point by now.

 

[captainjack23]

I've removed the word "offended to preserve the point which is this:

A handful of people at most have even raised the issue in the past. That is not enough for any sane publisher to warrant changing anything.

agree ?

No, because (for the second time) the number of people who may or may not have raised anything isn't the point.

The point is that the kafer/kaffir argument is a ridiculous one, and that people who are or could be offended by a word that isn't actually a totally different word with a different meaning aren't worth listening to. The fact that there aren't that many people who would be offended that way is a bonus.

And this applies regardless of how you phrase it, so hopefully you've got the point by now.

Okay, so a few or a lot of people being offended isn't the point, or relevant. And if less people are offended, that's good.

I'm fine with that, and it was my point: you wanted to move to adjourn by reason of trival numbers, not me. I'm glad you agree.

Given that we all seem to agree that adding an umlaut is fine and have done so for some time, it seems all we have left to argue about is weather or not people have the right to be offended about certain things - or, at least, what topics qualify as "ridiculous" and which as "offensive", from a menu including hypothetical slave androids to british colombia, to kaffirs; some being okay, some not so much. And I'm not foolish enough to believe that's a viable discussion anywhere. And the sad fact is, its an issue that publishers have to wrestle with all the damn time, for a long time, and as its still batting around since gutenburg, I cant see you and I resolving it here.

So, thanks for your time and attention, and apologies to the forum if it got a bit heated; it was, in defense, sincere.

 

[Dave Chase]

I give it up and go to bed - you two have the most highly developed
ability to misunderstand each other in the worst possible way that I
have ever seen. :lol:

:lol:

That is what happens when you are needing sleep and decide to try to step between to individuals who have a set way of discussing that everyone else avoids being in the same room with.

It can be entertaining at times to watch, from a distance.
:roll:

Dave Chase