Jumping into empty hexes: some thoughts.
- Thread starter captainjack23
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EDG said:
Using thruster plates you should be able to make some pretty decently quick normal-space interstellar probes. Send a fleet of them in a search pattern in the general direction of the target system and detect useful brown dwarfs by measuring their gravitational effect on the relative positions of the fleet of probes. Sure it'll take decades, but it'll get the job done.
Next question?
Simon Hibbs
Edit: Actualy a few rough calculations suggest you get up to a decent fraction of C with thruster plates. Years, not decades.
EDG said:
(edit) The following isn't aimed at you or anyone else personally, it's an interesting discussion and everyone's contribution has moved the discussion forwards, however (/edit)
That's it? That's really the reason for all this anxiety?
The way I see it Imperium as a board game is only a simulation of the Interstellar wars, it's not necessarily the actual canonical Interstellar Wars any more than the outcome of a game of Third Reich is the actual WW2. Suppose GDW had come out with a revised version, would we be criticizing it as an abomination if it included rules for Calibration Points or praising GDW for moving with the times? New versions of games come out all the time with new or revised rules. It is after all only a game.
Sorry but I've never had any time for canon worship in Traveller or any other setting.
Ok, how about this. Using calibration points was known, but it was considered too costly in materials to make regular use of them due to the cost of provisioning refuelling way stations. Or alternatively, the way stations had become so depleted in fuel reserves due to budget cuts and the lack of a real threat that their reserves were exhausted so fast at the beginning of the war that they made no effective strategic contribution. Or alternatively again, the use of way stations for courier ships explains how come the player has more strategic knowledge of the situation across the map than they ought to due to the limitations of jump communications for moving military units.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Simonh
Thanks for playing even with your distate for Canonworship !
I honestly don't think that this is about anxiety, or worship - at least on most peoples parts here....it's just a gedanken experiment, or a little intellectual game (in the sense that it is entirely subjective, not that it is inherently intelligent)
To me at least, there seems to be a differnece between canon munging (which we are doing) and canon worship...but to each his own. me, I don't consider Canon to be sacred, but I'm pretending it is in here, for the fun of it.
I tried to include a users warning to that effect - I suspect it got buried. But, here at least, thats the goal.
Perhaps if I had cast is as a seminar by an imperial Historian and his guests from around charted space, we could have seen it as a role playing exercise. AH well. Hindsight.
Well, yes, obviously. But the game which has only ever been revised once in 2000, (and that for play mechanisms and art only) has been explicitly made part of canon pretty much in its entirety. Which has then been reenforced by GT:IW. And it doesn't QUITE fit. Because, yes its a boardgame, much as 3R is (and 3R gets bent by tring to limit it to what the IPL war might have produced, after all....and yet it's still a fave of mine).
But from the viewpoint of a 3Imp historian, the contradictions are in fact mysteries. Thats where I'm coming from. You know -anomalies and or contrasts that produce adventure -or in this case, background.
I'll get back to this- it's a good point.
Thanks for playing even with your distate for Canonworship !
I honestly don't think that this is about anxiety, or worship - at least on most peoples parts here....it's just a gedanken experiment, or a little intellectual game (in the sense that it is entirely subjective, not that it is inherently intelligent)
To me at least, there seems to be a differnece between canon munging (which we are doing) and canon worship...but to each his own. me, I don't consider Canon to be sacred, but I'm pretending it is in here, for the fun of it.
I tried to include a users warning to that effect - I suspect it got buried. But, here at least, thats the goal.
Perhaps if I had cast is as a seminar by an imperial Historian and his guests from around charted space, we could have seen it as a role playing exercise. AH well. Hindsight.
simonh said:
Well, yes, obviously. But the game which has only ever been revised once in 2000, (and that for play mechanisms and art only) has been explicitly made part of canon pretty much in its entirety. Which has then been reenforced by GT:IW. And it doesn't QUITE fit. Because, yes its a boardgame, much as 3R is (and 3R gets bent by tring to limit it to what the IPL war might have produced, after all....and yet it's still a fave of mine).
But from the viewpoint of a 3Imp historian, the contradictions are in fact mysteries. Thats where I'm coming from. You know -anomalies and or contrasts that produce adventure -or in this case, background.
I'll get back to this- it's a good point.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
I'd guess too, that the average IQ is noticably higher in the survivors....
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
A design for a vilani long range early empire J1 Scoutship:
VSS “Randomwalk” (Famous ships in class: Montecarlo, Markov, Chain rule, Roulette, Crapshoot, Randomizer, Dev Null- all in Vilanii, of course)
Hull:
200dt Standard , Sphere (possibly black, with a white circle containing a big number eight painted on it)
Crystaliron Armor : 20 tons for 8 points –some hope of surviving impacts –possibly too with a coating of hyperubber (200x elasticity of normal rubber)
Self sealing (Duh)
Engineering:
JA, MA, PA for J1 M1. 16 tons. Yes, it's slow in normalspace, but why waste good machinery......
Fuel : Jump = 80 tons (4 x jump 1, one good misjump, and then wander back, refueling as needed)
Power plant for 24 Weeks. 24 Tons (we'll be out there potentially a Looooooong time)
Fuel processor x1, 1 ton. (after all, most of the time we want to misjump).
Other:
Ships Boat/Launch modified with refueling capacity. 20 tons
Probe drones x lots –say, 20 for 4 tons (drop at least one before each jump, include current data dump, ships log, last letters home)
Bridge with advanced sensors: 13 tons
Two staterooms : Pilot, navigator, engineer, and captain/scientist double occ, 8t tons
12 Low berths for 6 tons (with 8 replacements for the above as- I mean, in case- they go mad, die of jump shock, jump out the airlock, etc. )
5 tons cargo: MREs and trashy vids, calming games, as well as a minimum of six months supply of tranqs, antianxiety, and antipsychotic meds, 1/2 Dton of hyperprophin (for those nasty jump migrains ), several body bags and a freezer.
Ships locker has four suits, ABSOLUTELY NO guns or blade weapons, and especially no Hatchets or Axes; One tranq dart shooter (Captains cabin), twelve straitjacket, body restraint, gag and blindfold sets. Ships boat is safety interlocked to require two crew to input codes to activate . As is just about any other system that could cause the ship to explode, or allow escape -oops ! mean, desertion or capture....
It intentionally has no Weapons. You do NOT give guns or missles to this ship. They may come back a tad....peeved, or even confused about who the enemy is......
Fire it up, go out to about 20d of a local world, press the Big Red Button. Caution. Jump outcome may be Hazardous.
Think “Dark Star”, only less pleasant……
:shock:
Edits: Stupid Typos corrected , including "straight jacket". In my defence, I've never even seen one, let alone having to spell it.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
atpollard said:
Well, yes, but MCM is a fertilizer for ideas, I'm sure.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
Uhhhhh. Thanks sir, but if I reenlist can I skip the benefit ?
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
Hold on....I need to go to the restroom. BLAM.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
simonh said:
Ding. A winner !
One non-EMS, non visual means for for investigating crucial hexes.
Expensive as heck, but potentially VERY profitable.
And the Vilanii have NOTHING but time.....and signed reciepts at the other end, no doubt.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Okay, I just took a short break and checked out the homeworld of the Suerrat -another race contacted well before J2...Illish/Illish 2907 -
It is in fact also inaccessable by continuous star to star jumps.
I also note that a waypoint allowing one to get to Illish from Vland would also open up trade with not only an advanced major race (in space longer than the vilanii, but non-jump only) but a main with about 40 planets. Seems woth an investment, says I......
It is in fact also inaccessable by continuous star to star jumps.
I also note that a waypoint allowing one to get to Illish from Vland would also open up trade with not only an advanced major race (in space longer than the vilanii, but non-jump only) but a main with about 40 planets. Seems woth an investment, says I......
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Bawapakerwa-a-a-awapawab (aka Bwaps, aka Newts), homeworld at to Marhaban /Empty Quarter 0425) are also inaccessable by Jump 1. In this case LOTS of empty hexe gaps have to be crossed to get there - its in a fairly sparse area. I stopped counting at four.
They, too, were contacted well before J2.
They, too, were contacted well before J2.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
The Dishaan (Proalan/Zarushagar 2325)homeworld also cannot be reached by Jump 1 star to star links from Vland.
Thats Four for four thus far- (Genoee, Suerrat, Bwap and Dishaan) all known to have been contacted before Jump 2, and all needing either Jump 2 or empty hex jumps. So, a minimum THUS far, of seven waypoints to be found (remember, The bwaps need at least four by themselves) . And at least one large insular main attached to the Suerrat.
Thats Four for four thus far- (Genoee, Suerrat, Bwap and Dishaan) all known to have been contacted before Jump 2, and all needing either Jump 2 or empty hex jumps. So, a minimum THUS far, of seven waypoints to be found (remember, The bwaps need at least four by themselves) . And at least one large insular main attached to the Suerrat.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
The Vegans look to be connected via lots of J1 routes -allthough I do note that they weren't contacted by the Vilanii till after they had gotten the vilanii J1 drive from a third party.
Out of curiosity I just asked the player whose character is our setting's
chief pilot how she would solve the problem if she had to do it with a
jump drive (our setting uses hyperdrives):
1) Send a couple of drones with strong transmitters to a position one
parsec from the setting's system with the order to form a constellation
that allows her to determine a precise distance and location of a point
at the centre of the drone constellation.
2) Calculate a jump from that point to our setting's system (which has
sufficient mass for a jump destination) and then reverse the equation
for a jump from the system to that point.
3) Send a robot ship with enough fuel for two jumps to that point and
hope that it will be able to jump back, too.
Pure "handwavium", but she is convinced that it would work within the
framework of our Traveller-derived setting.
chief pilot how she would solve the problem if she had to do it with a
jump drive (our setting uses hyperdrives):
1) Send a couple of drones with strong transmitters to a position one
parsec from the setting's system with the order to form a constellation
that allows her to determine a precise distance and location of a point
at the centre of the drone constellation.
2) Calculate a jump from that point to our setting's system (which has
sufficient mass for a jump destination) and then reverse the equation
for a jump from the system to that point.
3) Send a robot ship with enough fuel for two jumps to that point and
hope that it will be able to jump back, too.
Pure "handwavium", but she is convinced that it would work within the
framework of our Traveller-derived setting.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
The Answerin are connected, though by a very sinuous and long J1 connection (47 jumps, give or take) .
That got me looking at vland itself ....Turns out it is almost insular -exactly ONE hex -Kha /Vland 1820 allows the Vilanii to get out of a (give or take) 23 planet group and expand out to the noted 1100 worlds viacontinuous J1 routes. Getting to corward is truly epic, having to literally navigate starting rimward, and all the way around the vilani home area until one is finally pointing in the right direction. About 3-4 times the distance from "crow flies" as it were.
I'm guessing that this layout and the possibility of blockade at the choke point (actually after that one, at Kha, there are two more before one "breaks out") they'd put some effort into finding waypoints; for trade efficiency, if nothing else......BUT, yes, that is an UOAF, so take it as conjectural.
That got me looking at vland itself ....Turns out it is almost insular -exactly ONE hex -Kha /Vland 1820 allows the Vilanii to get out of a (give or take) 23 planet group and expand out to the noted 1100 worlds viacontinuous J1 routes. Getting to corward is truly epic, having to literally navigate starting rimward, and all the way around the vilani home area until one is finally pointing in the right direction. About 3-4 times the distance from "crow flies" as it were.
I'm guessing that this layout and the possibility of blockade at the choke point (actually after that one, at Kha, there are two more before one "breaks out") they'd put some effort into finding waypoints; for trade efficiency, if nothing else......BUT, yes, that is an UOAF, so take it as conjectural.
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