Jumping into empty hexes: some thoughts.

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I have to admit I'm struggling to find what problem with the empty hexes that you're trying to solve. As far as I can see it's been solved - you couldn't do jumps to empty hexes at one point, but you can now. And the empty hexes are filled with substellar objects that can be targeted as jump points if you can find them (that for some reason aren't generally shown on maps... or maybe some of those late M Vs with rockballs around them really are just young brown dwarfs).


BUT, we have both civilizations not using empty space jumps strategically in a fight for survival.

The Vilani were notoriously unimaginative, conservative and traditional as a culture, so the thought of looking for jump targets between stars may not even have occurred to them (and down at the the arse-end of nowhere where all the skirmishes with the Sollies was going on they might not even had had the necessary tools to find them anyway). The Solomani could and would have been more into the idea, but just may not have had the resources to spare to do much looking. I'm pretty sure this is all explained in GT:IW and/or GT:Rim Of Fire.

But then at some point afterwards, the calculations to jump into realspace without requiring a mass at the other end were solved and it could become possible.

So... that's it isn't it?
 
EDG said:
I have to admit I'm struggling to find what problem with the empty hexes that you're trying to solve.

<snip>
But then at some point afterwards, the calculations to jump into realspace without requiring a mass at the other end were solved and it could become possible.

So... that's it isn't it?

reread the above posts. The issue is internal consistency. The math issue as stated in IW contradicts the spread of vilanii empire pre jump 1. It also requires the near terra jumppoint, and all that entails. And it fails on consideration of the frequency of large non-stellar masses.

Still, if its a level of consistency you're okay with, no reason for you to worry about it.
 
captainjack23 said:
The math issue as stated in IW contradicts the spread of vilanii empire pre jump 1. It also requires the near terra jumppoint, and all that entails. And it fails on consideration of the frequency of large non-stellar masses.

How? The Vilani empire could have spread using substellar masses in empty hexes as jump off points. Or they could have towed large asteroids using sublight drives to appropriate distances that they could have used as stepping stones that would have enabled them to jump a larger gap. They could have had any number of reasons to not bother trying to do anything like that around Terra.

The near-terra jumppoint isn't really a problem either - I think the official explanation is that it was forgotten about when it wasn't needed after J2 was invented. It's still there, and may well be a secret military base of some sort, but nobody really cares about it anymore.

And BDs and substellar masses are probably in every single 'empty hex', but they're so damned hard to find that hardly any are known (and if they are, they're probably jealously guarded as pirate bases and secret research or military installations and so won't appear on maps).

Doesn't that explain the inconsistencies you're finding?
 
By the way, it does not even have to be a problem of technology (jump
drives, long-range sensors, or whatever), sometimes there is just no one
who comes up with the right idea.

To give an example from our history, during the Age of Exploration both
the Spaniards and their enemies tried for many years to find a way to
sail across the Pacific from west to east, and all attempts failed, although
they had all the necessary technology.
In the end, the Spaniards asked one of their famous retired pilots to try
it, and he succeeded brilliantly on his first attempt, because he had the
right idea to simply use a more northern route.

So, perhaps Vilani and Terrans simply lacked the right idea of how to
do the trick and jump into empty hexes, and not the technology. They
might have been able to do it right after the invention of the jump dri-
ve, had they only found out how to do it. And later, when the trick was
no longer necessary and useful, it may well have been forgotten for
many years, re-discovered, forgotten again ...
 
rust said:
So, perhaps Vilani and Terrans simply lacked the right idea of how to do the trick and jump into empty hexes, and not the technology. They
might have been able to do it right after the invention of the jump dri-
ve, had they only found out how to do it. And later, when the trick was
no longer necessary and useful, it may well have been forgotten for
many years, re-discovered, forgotten again ...

I think that was the idea... I don't think the technology itself was the problem, just that when anyone tried to do a jump into a hex without a mass at the other end, the equations and so on became unsolvable. Then some bright spark figured out a new way to calculate it (and probably invented some new field of mathematics at the same time) and this solved the equations and figure out the correct jump co-ordinates to make an empty hex jump possible.

I guess it could have been forgotten about in the Long Night and rediscovered early in the 3I too.
 
EDG said:
rust said:
So, perhaps Vilani and Terrans simply lacked the right idea of how to do the trick and jump into empty hexes, and not the technology. They
might have been able to do it right after the invention of the jump dri-
ve, had they only found out how to do it. And later, when the trick was
no longer necessary and useful, it may well have been forgotten for
many years, re-discovered, forgotten again ...

I think that was the idea... I don't think the technology itself was the problem, just that when anyone tried to do a jump into a hex without a mass at the other end, the equations and so on became unsolvable. Then some bright spark figured out a new way to calculate it (and probably invented some new field of mathematics at the same time) and this solved the equations and figure out the correct jump co-ordinates to make an empty hex jump possible.

I guess it could have been forgotten about in the Long Night and rediscovered early in the 3I too.

Which really is what I'm suggesting - and adding a way to implement it in gameplay -say in an IW setting.

keep in mind that too the vilanii might well have banned & supressed empty jump tech after they got jump 2 and control of everything; but that wouldn't apply to terran research.
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
The math issue as stated in IW contradicts the spread of vilanii empire pre jump 1. It also requires the near terra jumppoint, and all that entails. And it fails on consideration of the frequency of large non-stellar masses.

How? The Vilani empire could have spread using substellar masses in empty hexes as jump off points. Or they could have towed large asteroids using sublight drives to appropriate distances that they could have used as stepping stones that would have enabled them to jump a larger gap. They could have had any number of reasons to not bother trying to do anything like that around Terra.

The near-terra jumppoint isn't really a problem either - I think the official explanation is that it was forgotten about when it wasn't needed after J2 was invented. It's still there, and may well be a secret military base of some sort, but nobody really cares about it anymore.

And BDs and substellar masses are probably in every single 'empty hex', but they're so damned hard to find that hardly any are known (and if they are, they're probably jealously guarded as pirate bases and secret research or military installations and so won't appear on maps).

Doesn't that explain the inconsistencies you're finding?

Nope; if you want to rely on realistic substellar masses to solve all the above, everywhere is functionally a jump 1. And as jump 1 ships are cheaper than jump 2, there is no way a major port like Terra would have lost touch with a jump 1 point. Substellar jump masses significantly change and break the existing OTU -which is fine, but not what I'm trying to discuss.


All I'm suggesting is that it may be amusing to try and reconcile a few holes in canon...empty hex jumps vs chokepoints, and the whole issue of substellar masses vs the lack of stars on a traveller map. And provide some rules about it. And, possibly some implications of how jumpspace works. And canvassing for opinions about how to do so.

Also, a few posts ago, didn't you describe the whole point of substellar mass points & vilani diffusion handwave as broken ?

IIRC SJG had to invoke a brown dwarf to get to Alpha Centauri from Sol in IW though - if you look, Prometheus (Alpha Centauri) is the nearest system to Sol... and it's two hexes away. And Terrans start with J1 drive. So if they couldn't jump into the empty hex, they had to have a mass to jump to that isn't shown on the map. I guess it's not shown on the maps now because it's not necessary anymore, but I think that's a daft explanation. Maybe proper motion over the millenia has caused the BD to drift into an already occupied hex so it's not useful anymore? (I think that'd have to be some really rapid proper motion though...)

I don't think anyone actually tried to see how the Vilani could spread out from Vland with J1 and no empty hex jump capability, but presumably the answer was "brown dwarfs" again.

But yes, it's a huge gaping hole in OTU canon. If the "link" BDs are really there they they darn well should be mapped, but they're not. Go figure.

So, yes, if they aren't mapped, then why not ? Mains exist as important entities, but why if any given hex can be jumped to and from.....and why do the historical chokepoints (also mentioned in CT canon AND GT canon) exist at all ? And where are all the other stars ? Thus for me, thee simple substellar mass fix fails as an explaination (yes, in my personal and probably over-obsessive opinion).


So, unless one wants to accept that the traveller universe is vastly different than the real universe (SHUDDER !), from less visible stars , to almost no substellar wanderers, except when convenient , there is a problem...and if one want to posit a radically different universe, where, for instance planetary and stellar formation is radically different....well...heck. You're the ones arguing for physical versimilitude, I'll hand that off to you.
 
captainjack23 said:
Nope; if you want to rely on realistic substellar masses to solve all the above, everywhere is functionally a jump 1. And as jump 1 ships are cheaper than jump 2, there is no way a major port like Terra would have lost touch with a jump 1 point.

Well, the point is that in most cases it's just too darn hard to find a substellar object in an empty hex. It's not that suddenly everywhere is J1 from everywhere else... it's that potentially everywhere is J1 from everywhere else, but in practice it's not because it's blind luck if you find a BD or wandering planet to jump to. And most likely, it's only worth making the effort to find a BD when you really need it to jump over a gap, not anywhere lse.

And maybe the J1 point near Terra got "forgotten" because it was a top secret base. Or as I said, maybe the BD was moving through space fast enough to now be in the same hex as Prometheus after a few thousand years.

Also, a few posts ago, didn't you describe the whole point of substellar mass points & vilani diffusion handwave as broken ?

I don't think I did... it may be a gaping hole in canon, but it's not unsolvable. Things may have been removed from maps. Or they could exist solely on military maps as 'calibration point' type things. Or they may be there and not discovered yet.


So, yes, if they aren't mapped, then why not ? Mains exist as important entities, but why if any given hex can be jumped to and from.....and why do the historical chokepoints (also mentioned in CT canon AND GT canon) exist at all ?

Well now you're asking why people don't jump into empty hexes now that they know how to do it. I think the answer is (a) it's risky (you're probably right in that there may be DMs to be applied that may result in misjump), (b) it means you have to carry more fuel to do the second jump, which means less cargo/more expense, and (c) why take two weeks to get someplace when you can do it in one with a better jump drive?


And where are all the other stars ?

Maybe there's barren star systems in the empty hexes too (with no belts or planets). Though then of course the question is "so why not build a station around them"? TBH, I think that's where the OTU is just plain broken.


So, unless one wants to accept that the traveller universe is vastly different than the real universe (SHUDDER !), from less visible stars , to almost no substellar wanderers, except when convenient , there is a problem...and if one want to posit a radically different universe, where, for instance planetary and stellar formation is radically different....well...heck. You're the ones arguing for physical versimilitude, I'll hand that off to you.

Sometimes I wonder if it's better to just say "yeah, it's a crazy parallel universe where there's less stars and stuff"... but then that throws any kind of discussion about realism out of the window because there's nothing to base it on. And it's not like it even makes sense internally anyway... ;)
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
Nope; if you want to rely on realistic substellar masses to solve all the above, everywhere is functionally a jump 1. And as jump 1 ships are cheaper than jump 2, there is no way a major port like Terra would have lost touch with a jump 1 point.

Well, the point is that in most cases it's just too darn hard to find a substellar object in an empty hex. It's not that suddenly everywhere is J1 from everywhere else... it's that potentially everywhere is J1 from everywhere else, but in practice it's not because it's blind luck if you find a BD or wandering planet to jump to. And most likely, it's only worth making the effort to find a BD when you really need it to jump over a gap, not anywhere lse.

And maybe the J1 point near Terra got "forgotten" because it was a top secret base. Or as I said, maybe the BD was moving through space fast enough to now be in the same hex as Prometheus after a few thousand years.

Well, to me it seems unlikely that in something like 3000 years of high tech astronomy and trade and wars that every usefully positioned brown dwarf isn't noted. heck....haven't we already found some at tech 7 ?

As to the waypoint, given that lots of traffic went thru it, civilian and military, before J2 was developed, its hard to see how it could be secret. Or Why.

The relative motion could work, but I thought you said that was pretty darn unusual ? besides -it happened to right where it was needed, when it ws needed, and now its gone ? Shades of Grandfathers meddling, I say..;)

Also, a few posts ago, didn't you describe the whole point of substellar mass points & vilani diffusion handwave as broken ?

I don't think I did... it may be a gaping hole in canon, but it's not unsolvable. Things may have been removed from maps. Or they could exist solely on military maps as 'calibration point' type things. Or they may be there and not discovered yet.


So, yes, if they aren't mapped, then why not ? Mains exist as important entities, but why if any given hex can be jumped to and from.....and why do the historical chokepoints (also mentioned in CT canon AND GT canon) exist at all ?

Well now you're asking why people don't jump into empty hexes now that they know how to do it. I think the answer is (a) it's risky (you're probably right in that there may be DMs to be applied that may result in misjump), (b) it means you have to carry more fuel to do the second jump, which means less cargo/more expense,

no, I'm really focusing on then : when a J2 ship was cutting edge and new. Old J1 ships with extra fuel are only slightly less cost effective than a J2 ship - and building a new J2 ship is really expensive. Plus, if one only needs to make one long jump to get to the next main, it's back to business as usual. PLUS, if there is any likihood of a source of fuel at a waypoint object it's way better than a push.

While static, the Vilani were about business....it wouldn't take much for any of the Bureaux or megacorps to establish fuel stations, in any case.

and (c) why take two weeks to get someplace when you can do it in one with a better jump drive?

'cause it doesn't matter, and is cheaper ? And J2 engines are tightly controlled (for vilanii), and hulls are in such short supply relative to potential demand that theres no way terrans are going to scrap J1 Ships unless they have to ?

Substellar waypoints in any kind of realistic quantity really do create a VERY different universe.

And where are all the other stars ?

Maybe there's barren star systems in the empty hexes too (with no belts or planets). Though then of course the question is "so why not build a station around them"? TBH, I think that's where the OTU is just plain broken.

well, thats what I want to address. Broken is easy, and where's the fun in that ?

So, unless one wants to accept that the traveller universe is vastly different than the real universe (SHUDDER !), from less visible stars , to almost no substellar wanderers, except when convenient , there is a problem...and if one want to posit a radically different universe, where, for instance planetary and stellar formation is radically different....well...heck. You're the ones arguing for physical versimilitude, I'll hand that off to you.

Sometimes I wonder if it's better to just say "yeah, it's a crazy parallel universe where there's less stars and stuff"... but then that throws any kind of discussion about realism out of the window because there's nothing to base it on. And it's not like it even makes sense internally anyway... ;)

I think you're back where you started some time ago- "Canon needs to be scrapped". I can see your heart isn't into trying to justify canon young jedi. Follow your heart. :)
 
captainjack23 said:
Well, to me it seems unlikely that in something like 3000 years of high tech astronomy and trade and wars that every usefully positioned brown dwarf isn't noted. heck....haven't we already found some at tech 7 ?

Yes, a few. Very few solo ones. And most of the rest are either paired with another star or in young star clusters where they're still bright enough to show up.

As to the waypoint, given that lots of traffic went thru it, civilian and military, before J2 was developed, its hard to see how it could be secret. Or Why.

I dunno, how many things from 3000 years ago are you aware of? ;) Never mind that the OTU has a few centuries of dark ages in between Imperiums. That's plenty of time for things to be forgotten in.


The relative motion could work, but I thought you said that was pretty darn unusual ? besides -it happened to right where it was needed, when it ws needed, and now its gone ? Shades of Grandfathers meddling, I say..;)

Or just luck. Maybe it just happened to be in the right spot at the right time. Things do happen by chance sometimes you know ;).


no, I'm really focusing on then : when a J2 ship was cutting edge and new. Old J1 ships with extra fuel are only slightly less cost effective than a J2 ship - and building a new J2 ship is really expensive. Plus, if one only needs to make one long jump to get to the next main, it's back to business as usual. PLUS, if there is any likihood of a source of fuel at a waypoint object it's way better than a push.

While static, the Vilani were about business....it wouldn't take much for any of the Bureaux or megacorps to establish fuel stations, in any case.

Well back then they knew about them and could use them. One messy collapse and Long Night later, is it really surprising that the 3I doesn't know about them anymore?


Substellar waypoints in any kind of realistic quantity really do create a VERY different universe.

KNOWN substellar waypoints do. But the majority of unknown ones can't change anything.


well, thats what I want to address. Broken is easy, and where's the fun in that ?

...

I think you're back where you started some time ago- "Canon needs to be scrapped". I can see your heart isn't into trying to justify canon young jedi. Follow your heart. :)

I can't help but find it somewhat ironic that you're happy to spend all this time trying to solve canon problems that most likely don't even have a sensible solution, given how often you've berated me for "tilting at windmills"... ;)

But hey, whatever floats your boat...
 
According to Gurps:Traveller Interstellar Wars (p169-171) here are a few select sentences about deep space jumps, known as 'jump points' (paraphrased).

The mathematics for jump is easier when there is a significant mass (planet, star) at each end of the jump.

So maybe a TL12+ ship's computer wont have as much problem making the computations but then why would you need it if you already have Jump 2 &/ Jump 3?

Interstellar space is not entirely empty. Astronomers may be able to find massive objects (rogue planets, brown dwarfs, large comets) in "empty" hexes.

It would seem to me that the 3rd Imperium's Second Survey would have located and marked all such jump points to facilitate trade, esp between mains, which is what the Imperium is supposed to be about.

The Terrans are willing to use them when found. The (First) Imperium has not looked for such points in centuries.

At the time of the IW's (according to published Classic and Mega Traveller timelines) the 1st Imperium is TL B(11) and had jump 2 so they had no need for deep space jumps points. (IIRC there are few jump 3+ seperations between the Vilini and Terrans.)

Such jump points are not marked on supplied maps. The GM should place them as he sees need for them. However, such jump points are rare.

Probably more rare than what we are starting to see in reality using advance TL 7 methods.

Terrans compute all the details of a jump taking longer to compute but can always plan a jump, even into unexplored space or after a misjump.

I'm supposing that a jump point (sufficent mass) has already been found in the hex/space being transversed.

Imperial ships use jump tapes to shorten the computation times for known routes. The means that Imperial ships have become so dependent on jump tapes ships that have misjumped into empty space are lost.

Now we know where jump tapes came from. Hold up, I gotta dim the lights. We're about ready to jump. :P
 
EDG said:
captainjack23 said:
Well, to me it seems unlikely that in something like 3000 years of high tech astronomy and trade and wars that every usefully positioned brown dwarf isn't noted. heck....haven't we already found some at tech 7 ?

Yes, a few. Very few solo ones. And most of the rest are either paired with another star or in young star clusters where they're still bright enough to show up.

at tech 7. I guess I have more faith in the progress of astronomy ?
As to the waypoint, given that lots of traffic went thru it, civilian and military, before J2 was developed, its hard to see how it could be secret. Or Why.

I dunno, how many things from 3000 years ago are you aware of? ;)

Ho ho ho, mr Smartypants..... :P ; actually quite a few: classical civilization ? Just their lives, their literature, their technology and science, their wars -what they eat, where they lived .....where they traveled, how they travelled. And if we are talking China or Egypt, even more. Drop by, I'll show you our library. (I cheat, I admit, my wife's degree is in classical cultures).
And that's from tech 2.

3000 years pre 1105 is tech 11.

Never mind that the OTU has a few centuries of dark ages in between Imperiums. That's plenty of time for things to be forgotten in.

Fact is, much of the long night is a propagandist fiction designed to justify the 3rd Imperium -heck, Sylea had a perfectly good interstellar federation for several hundred of those years - and Sol never even regressed to pre starflight levels. It wasn't the massive destruction of the TNE event.

But heck. lets go back 1000 years to Cleon I: tech 10/11. In 1000 uninterrupted years I suspect that the biggest issue will be wading thru data, not forgetting things. Do you really think that if the substellar jump points exist, that none of them anywhere seem to be marked, used, or have any impact ? Or they've never been found again although the Vilanii and the Terrans could have (at a lower tech) but forgot about them entirely, and no one has been able to replicate their methods since then ? Despite the potential advantages monitary and otherwise ?



The relative motion could work, but I thought you said that was pretty darn unusual ? besides -it happened to right where it was needed, when it ws needed, and now its gone ? Shades of Grandfathers meddling, I say..;)

Or just luck. Maybe it just happened to be in the right spot at the right time. Things do happen by chance sometimes you know ;).

Oh yes. Thats what he would like you to believe......

no, I'm really focusing on then : when a J2 ship was cutting edge and new. Old J1 ships with extra fuel are only slightly less cost effective than a J2 ship - and building a new J2 ship is really expensive. Plus, if one only needs to make one long jump to get to the next main, it's back to business as usual. PLUS, if there is any likihood of a source of fuel at a waypoint object it's way better than a push.

While static, the Vilani were about business....it wouldn't take much for any of the Bureaux or megacorps to establish fuel stations, in any case.

Well back then they knew about them and could use them. One messy collapse and Long Night later, is it really surprising that the 3I doesn't know about them anymore?

Well,yes, it is. If you want to invoke the long night causing them to be utterly forgotten, then you need to explain why at the same tech levels, in the same areas, with the same motivations, AND with an increasing tech, they wouldn't be found again, even starting from scratch ? The 3rd imperium was a jump 2 empire, itself, at the beginning.

Substellar waypoints in any kind of realistic quantity really do create a VERY different universe.

KNOWN substellar waypoints do. But the majority of unknown ones can't change anything.


well, thats what I want to address. Broken is easy, and where's the fun in that ?

...

I think you're back where you started some time ago- "Canon needs to be scrapped". I can see your heart isn't into trying to justify canon young jedi. Follow your heart. :)

I can't help but find it somewhat ironic that you're happy to spend all this time trying to solve canon problems that most likely don't even have a sensible solution, given how often you've berated me for "tilting at windmills"... ;)

Entertainingly wasting time on unimportant, possibly unresolvable things for free is the definition of a hobby. If I was paid for it, I'd be a Psychologist....oh, wait....
But hey, whatever floats your boat...

Indeed, and thats why I'm the captain...;)

BTW, I certainly have berated you for quite a few things, but never , I think, tilting at windmills.....
 
Hi randy, thanks for taking the time and effort to chime in with the stuff from IW.
Hope you don;t mind if I add a few dog headed opinions of my own to it....

RandyT0001 said:
According to Gurps:Traveller Interstellar Wars (p169-171) here are a few select sentences about deep space jumps, known as 'jump points' (paraphrased).

The mathematics for jump is easier when there is a significant mass (planet, star) at each end of the jump.

So maybe a TL12+ ship's computer wont have as much problem making the computations but then why would you need it if you already have Jump 2 &/ Jump 3?

Well, once you have jump three, and if you are using it, you don't. In fact, gaining jump-3 was what let the Terrans get behind vilani front lines, and ambush them (among other things).

However, at jump 1, and even with jump 2, there are a lot of places that were canonically gotten to that would require empty jumps.

Interstellar space is not entirely empty. Astronomers may be able to find massive objects (rogue planets, brown dwarfs, large comets) in "empty" hexes.

It would seem to me that the 3rd Imperium's Second Survey would have located and marked all such jump points to facilitate trade, esp between mains, which is what the Imperium is supposed to be about.

Yup, agreed. nice spot about the survey office -its one more justification for the Scouts !

The Terrans are willing to use them when found. The (First) Imperium has not looked for such points in centuries.

At the time of the IW's (according to published Classic and Mega Traveller timelines) the 1st Imperium is TL B(11) and had jump 2 so they had no need for deep space jumps points. (IIRC there are few jump 3+ seperations between the Vilini and Terrans.)

Well, yes, but they were crucial, and war winning. One of the few advantages terra had was position -the Vilani couldn't get at them except by two specific routes. And vice versa. heck, even just using waypoints to take the long way around fortified systems would have been a BIG change.
Such jump points are not marked on supplied maps. The GM should place them as he sees need for them. However, such jump points are rare.

Probably more rare than what we are starting to see in reality using advance TL 7 methods.

Terrans compute all the details of a jump taking longer to compute but can always plan a jump, even into unexplored space or after a misjump.

I'm supposing that a jump point (sufficent mass) has already been found in the hex/space being transversed.

Imperial ships use jump tapes to shorten the computation times for known routes. The means that Imperial ships have become so dependent on jump tapes ships that have misjumped into empty space are lost.

Now we know where jump tapes came from. Hold up, I gotta dim the lights. We're about ready to jump. :P

Yup. One of the fun parts about canon studies is how things sometimes fall into place serendipitously. Jump tapes fit in well. Except that they don't exist for the terran stars they are jumping into in the 1st-3rd wars....so thats a bit dodgy.

Okay, fun fun fun.
 
captainjack23 said:
at tech 7. I guess I have more faith in the progress of astronomy ?

Even TL 15 astronomy is going to have a bloody hard time finding an inert rocky planet in interstellar space that emits a fraction of a watt per square metre of heat at most...

Brown dwarfs are more likely to be detectable because they're still a lot warmer than the background, but it'll still need a dedicated search for them, ideally from either a parsec away or from a mobile station within the same hex.


Ho ho ho, mr Smartypants..... :P ; actually quite a few:

No no no. I mean, can we honestly claim to know EVERYTHING about the cultures of 3000 years ago? Do we know every hidden trade route the Greeks or the Romans or the Egyptians (or whoever was around at the time) used? Do we know every cooking recipe that I understand that we're still not entirely sure what "Greek Fire" was. Do you know what knowledge was contained in the Library of Alexandria before it burned down? Who knows how many mathematical and physical principles and techniques we think we've discovered for the first time since then, that had actually been written in those scrolls? I've even heard that the ancient egyptians might even have had a rudimentary knowledge of electricity and even might have had crude "lightbulbs" (they may not know how it worked, but they could have known that mixing certain chemicals made what we now know as a battery, and that filaments could be heated by that). Maybe that's a load of bunk, but still, it's not beyond the realms of possibility. They certainly were good engineers, anyway.

Things like that are what I'm talking about. We only know what survived the passage of time - and obviously, we don't know the stuff that didn't. And there's a lot that could have been forgotten.



Fact is, much of the long night is a propagandist fiction designed to justify the 3rd Imperium -heck, Sylea had a perfectly good interstellar federation for several hundred of those years - and Sol never even regressed to pre starflight levels. It wasn't the massive destruction of the TNE event.

Maybe not, but it only needs a few critical data systems to go down that contained important data like that to have it be lost for all time.

And what if someone found the data systems lying in an abandoned base and decided that they needed the drive space to store all their planet's economic data? One quick format of the drive and boom, there goes your massive astronomical catalogue of dim interstellar objects.


Do you really think that if the substellar jump points exist, that none of them anywhere seem to be marked, used, or have any impact ?

Like I said, some of them probably have been mapped. What we see on a map as a system with an M8-M9 V star might just be a young brown dwarf that got spotted and marked.


Despite the potential advantages monitary and otherwise ?

I think actually if anyone's got the time and resources to look for them it'd be the military. And they probably wouldn't want anyone else to know about them, because they'd rather be able to jump across a gap in two weeks than have to go the long way round and spend 8-10 weeks getting there to quell that pesky rebellion.



Oh yes. Thats what he would like you to believe......

Well, if you're going to invoke Grandfather then all bets go out of the window. He's the convenient "a wizard did it!" of the setting.


Well,yes, it is. If you want to invoke the long night causing them to be utterly forgotten, then you need to explain why at the same tech levels, in the same areas, with the same motivations, AND with an increasing tech, they wouldn't be found again, even starting from scratch ? The 3rd imperium was a jump 2 empire, itself, at the beginning.

I never said that they haven't been found again though. You're stuck in thinking that every BD and interstellar object that exists can be discovered when I'm telling you that simply isn't true. Even with TL 15 astronomy. A handful may well have been discovered. Some may even be on the maps already. But the fact of the matter is that there are still going to be 'empty hexes' that may well have planets in them that simply haven't been detected because even the TL 15 instruments aren't powerful enough to see them.


Entertainingly wasting time on unimportant, possibly unresolvable things for free is the definition of a hobby. If I was paid for it, I'd be a Psychologist....oh, wait....

You want a waste of time? I've spent the past couple of hours colouring dots on printouts from AotI just to see how damn far the Vilani Imperium DID actually extend with just J1. What's even more perverse is that I'm actually finding it fun (like "yay, it's entered another sector... oh wait, that's a dead end!").

I'll keep you in suspense til it's done ;).


BTW, I certainly have berated you for quite a few things, but never , I think, tilting at windmills.....

I'm pretty sure you have, actually... but whatever. ;)
 
Tweeeeeet !

referee time out ! Shared foul !

Repetitive questioning and answering ! Unprovable opinions argued as fact ! Gratuitous pedantry on both sides ! Jokes about grandfather taken as serious ! Tempers flaring !

Discussion to move to PM !

All others play thru !

Tweeeeeet !
 
Um, what have I said here that provoked that reaction exactly? All I did was point out the flaws in some of your assumptions in my previous post - it's not my fault if they don't hold up to scrutiny.

Fact is, it doesn't matter what TL you're at, there are physical limits to what you can detect at large distances. I'm sure that BDs would be theoretically easier to detect at higher TLs, but you're still looking for a tiny object radiating not an awful lot of IR radiation in an entire cubic parsec's worth of volume. And there's probably not an awful lot of demand or interest (or even money) in setting up IR observatories in every planetary system to scour 180 degrees of sky looking for a proverbial needle in a haystack. And spending more money and effort to send scout ships out into an empty hex for weeks at a time looking for them is even more crazy IMO.

EDIT: And note that I can honestly say that I "wrote the book" on this. I've written two JTAS articles on the subject where I go into some detail about how and why the Imperium may not have mapped these objects. I came up with two reasons - one was that some parties had actually mapped them but were keeping them for their own use (e.g. pirates, megacorps, military) and not telling the public (i.e. the PCs), and the other was that they had looked and found some of them when they actually made a concerted effort to find them, but just didn't bother looking for them otherwise). The point being that I have actually put considerably thought into this...

So jack - are you going to calm down and respond to those counterpoints, or are you just going to randomly give up on the discussion? (not that I see any reason for you to give up on it...)
 
Fundamentally, the need for deep space jumps doesn't occur to the J1 Vilani, and even when they get J2, they still have a huge range.

Terrans, however, just to get out system, needed deep space jumps. Therefore, since the contact was outsystem, the simplest is that Terrans could and did use them. Or, the Terrans simply used J1 as an in-system drive.

And the fact that the maps in Supp 10 support this...

And EDG's map work shows the vilani had no need for CP's at J1, so until they actually NEEDED them, given that probably 300 of them were readily colonizable, that's a long time.
 
AKAramis said:
Fundamentally, the need for deep space jumps doesn't occur to the J1 Vilani, and even when they get J2, they still have a huge range.

Terrans, however, just to get out system, needed deep space jumps. Therefore, since the contact was outsystem, the simplest is that Terrans could and did use them. Or, the Terrans simply used J1 as an in-system drive.

And the fact that the maps in Supp 10 support this...

One solution I suggested on the SJG boards was that actually the Terrans could have had used J1 to get around within the Solar System and then actually invented J2 to get to Barnard and meet the Vilani. I think that would have only conflicted with canon only for the first couple of Interstellar Wars and wouldn't have made a real difference, and then it would have aligned with canon again since around that time they would have invented J2 anyway.

But they didn't go for that. :).


And EDG's map work shows the vilani had no need for CP's at J1, so until they actually NEEDED them, given that probably 300 of them were readily colonizable, that's a long time.

And then when they DID get J2, they still wouldn't have needed to do an empty hex jump because they'd have so many more systems to access normally anyway.
 
Stars, then, seem to matter in calculating a jump, but they are not essential. We'll move on with the assumption that an empty hex jump is always more difficult than a star jump and sometimes impossible.

That said, what's the deal with stars, and what about the missing stars ?

See, thoughts about empty jumps came about as a result of too much thinking about the missing stars in the empty hexes.

We know that some kind of complex, time limited and location dependent calculations need to be made for jump. I have to say that I've never been overfond of the argument that these are mostly due to differing velocities. Multi vector calculations are doable now, abiet not by hand, and can reliably solve for any number of vectors (in fact, they can be rotated thru any number of dimensions relative or not to any one or set of the vectors- it's the basics of factor analysis). If you want a more in depth explanation of why I think its unlikely, read the * below. Otherwise we can move on.

My theory (cough,cough) is based on this: all points in jumpspace, except for the 100d situation, map to points in realspace, this is explicit. However, this mapping need not be one to one, or exclusive.

In fact, I'd suggest that the key nature of jumpspace is that its spaces routinely map to potentially many other internal jumpspace points. The key then is finding out what point in JS is the one you want -that maps to the point corresponding to the jumpspace point of exit; essentially you are coesisting in both points. The entry takes lots of power, and the exit works much like particle decay -your jump field (which is holding you in the correct location) collapses somewhat randomly, and dumps you out at your exit point (presumably something about the enntry process also fixes which realspace mapped point you return to). One cannot choose an exit point within 100d of a major since those areas do not exist for jumpspace mapping. Precipitation is simply the result of the exit map being displaced.

If one likes jump interruption (ie a mass intersects your vector , you pop out there) it's a bit trickier to explain, but still works based on the idea that internal jumpspace points cannot map to each thru an appropriately sized real world object. One essentially gets the first available displacement point.

For the jumpspace calculation then, one is looking for a series of points that solve the desired travel plan, if one posits that the interface of jump and normalspace is informative to some degree about both sides, the difficulty is that the exit point must be chosen based on indirect observation of the entry point.

My suggestion is that the initial jump calculations at each level use the fact that the stars 100d limit as a beacon - a point connected to a displaced point is easier to find - possibly because a large number of points all would tend to be displaced and give similar solutions. Using this, one can say, aim for the point were everything has a (techbabble) rating of .06, since that is clear rating of a displaced point -too, possibly, one could also identify the star's 100d displacement zone based on known characteristics.

The thing is, none of those advantages exist in an empty hex. So it is far, far harder.


Heres the deal. Jump space is effected by diameter, and not mass. While very small (cosmologically speaking) bodies can mess up a jump, and force precipitation, they may not be big enough to provide a useful target. Using inddirect calculations to find the exit point, there ca be posited a critical point where the number of displaced solutions cannot be distinguished from an incorrect or unwanted solution. In short, one has a statistical problem, one that ones life is bet upon.

However, we still have the issue of why those hexes act as empty even if they have all kinds of junk and possibly stars in them ? Traveller has too few stars, and potentially too many waypoints....so here's my gloss on the situation.

The absolute size of a star determines its useability as a target for early jump calculations.

Since at least 50% of all stars are missing from the map, we can set the limit there -bodies smaller than a particular size of M type stars (which are about 50% of the stellar population) are too small to be useful (and luckily, are also some of the least likely to be useful for anything). Gaps exist for low TL jump because, simply, they don't have a big enough beacon.

Now we throw in the differential tech limits on empty jumps, and Volla ! A number of seeming contradictions clear up. The early vilani were unable to make empty jumps early in their history, because they needed beacons, but developed beconless jumps later at tech 10. Beacons allow jump tapes as a wide variety of solutions work for star to star jumps; Terrans may or may not have had it from the start, but they did not have to have a massive waypoint to enable jump.

Once jump 2 had been developed, it was the initial star to star kind, precluding serious jumps to empty hexes; the ability to jump to empty hexes would be developed at the next tech level - where jump 3 tech would make it unecessary. So, with this scheme, there only is an issue for a brief window -the two tech period of jump 1; at any time empty jumps are more hazardous, but only then was the inability to calculate them not mooted by an advanced jump drive.


Waypoints matter with regard to fuel and supplies; and some kind of calibration may perhaps reduce the hazard...but do not make the jump possible if TL will not allow it. In fact, space can be full of undiscovered or discovered substellar objects...it doesn't matter if one can only jump from star to star, and it doesn't matter (unless you hit one, I suppose) once you can do empty jumps.

Yes, I'm aware I havent adressed jumping from inside a 100d limit. That's for later. The above is relevant to exit points.

Wow. That was a lot of babble. Time for bed. Dig in !

No, NOT to my bed. Bad Traveller !



*Yes, everything's moving, but one can measure and record any needed movement of a given system and or planet, and store it for each system as a set of vectors relative to a common arbitrary origin ...say, Reference (in whichever sector that is in). Compare the data for the target and the jump exit system, fire up the drive, and set the resultant vector -which will be preserved at exit. Sure, you'll want to be sure that you miss any planets, but that's what a navigator is for. And in unexplored systems, much of the movement will be known beforehand -and as to those pesky smaller but still massive bodies ? Well, that's what the scout survival roll is all about.
 
I'll skip the technobabble because to be honest I didn't understand a word of it...! :shock:

captainjack23 said:
Since at least 50% of all stars are missing from the map, we can set the limit there -bodies smaller than a particular size of M type stars (which are about 50% of the stellar population) are too small to be useful (and luckily, are also some of the least likely to be useful for anything).

Small problem with that idea - the mapped systems can have M8-M9 V stars. In terms of mass, they're around 0.1 solar mass, and in terms of actual size, they're a couple of hundred thousand km in diameter. And obviously they have 100D limits at they're at the bottom end of the mass and size scale for stars.

Brown Dwarfs and Gas Giants are smaller and less massive than that, and we know they have 100D limits that can act as your "beacons". Heck, even rocky planets like Earth have 100D limits too. So the problem would more likely be that these smaller "beacons" are too small to be detectable at lower Tech Levels.


I guess at the end of the day I'm not convinced that your explanation is any better than the ones we have already. It just seems like a much more complicated way to explain what we already know and I'm not sure it really adds anything to it.
 
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