I've always thought that jump drones are not possible simply because succesful jumps require for a (biological) sophont to be onboard. Something about the jumpspace being psionic phenomenon in that sense. You can send jump drones in but they never come back. There's a good reason for the AI ships of TNE era to still hold on to some slaves onboard so they can jump around. I have a faint feeling that I've actually read some old Traveller stuff that is the basis of this view, but I can't remember what book(s) it might mean. Even if it is just my own imagination, it works fine at preventing jump drones and explains why things like X-boats require a crew.
Jump torps - why not?
- Thread starter EDG
- Start date
BenGunn said:
Well we've already had a long and heated thread about that...
IMTU I'd say the ship is actually jumping to a substellar body in the 'empty' hex, and that jumps to hexes with absolutely nothing there aren't possible.
Yep. Though the part before the "but" is what isn't made clear in canon.
EDG said:
Hmm, I've always taken it for granted that a good astrogator can plot a course for an empty hex, thus making it possible for lower jump ships to pass the Abyss and other rifts by refueling at fueling stations set in empty hexes. It is just much more difficult than aiming for a star. If it is not possible, it causes a question of another sort - what happens to a ship that tries to jump to an empty hex? Say that it uses Jump 2 engines to aim for a completely empty patch of space? Does it somehow do a Jump 3, surpassing the limitations of its jump engine because the next stellar mass is at three parsecs? Or does the jump bubble simply collapse after two parsecs if a gravity field does not pull the ship back to the real space, causing the vessel to be swallowed by the other universe and never come back? Heh, this latter explanation I could accept, though it makes space traffic somewhat more dangerous.
If you accept the 'all jumps must terminate at a mass point' theory, then this still works - just assume that those fuelling stations are located at comets or planetoids drifting through interstellar space.Majestic7 said:
If the comet is made of water ice, it might actually be the fuelling station.
Well, canon (as described in GURPS Traveller, at least) says that jumps to empty hexes are possible, but the mathematics involved is hellishly complex. The First Imperium never learned the secret, neither did the Second; but at some point shortly before the founding of the Third Imperium some genius mathemetician came up with an entirely new concept that made empty-hex jumps possible to calculate.
To borrow an analogy from 'Buffy', I'd say trying to jump to an empty hex is like trying to hit a puppy by throwing a live bumblebee at it. If there's a mass point in the hex, its gravity sucks the jumping ship in and precipitates it out of jump space automatically - as if the puppy itself jumped up into the path of the bee.
What happens if you get the calculation wrong? Guaranteed misjump, I'd say. Either you come out at a mass point somewhere else entirely, or you never emerge from jump space at all. The first option is better for player characters, the second is probably more likely overall.
StephenT said:Well, canon (as described in GURPS Traveller, at least) says that jumps to empty hexes are possible, but the mathematics involved is hellishly complex. The First Imperium never learned the secret, neither did the Second; but at some point shortly before the founding of the Third Imperium some genius mathemetician came up with an entirely new concept that made empty-hex jumps possible to calculate.
To borrow an analogy from 'Buffy', I'd say trying to jump to an empty hex is like trying to hit a puppy by throwing a live bumblebee at it. If there's a mass point in the hex, its gravity sucks the jumping ship in and precipitates it out of jump space automatically - as if the puppy itself jumped up into the path of the bee.
What happens if you get the calculation wrong? Guaranteed misjump, I'd say. Either you come out at a mass point somewhere else entirely, or you never emerge from jump space at all. The first option is better for player characters, the second is probably more likely overall.
That is pretty much how I've handled things. In my current Bowman-based campaign, the player characters have been investigating points in empty space. Even though they have correct cordinates calculated for their jumps in advance my some unknown genius, the jumps are still pretty dangerous compared to normal daily traffic to neighbouring systems.
StephenT said:
Depends what you call an "empty hex" - if you're referring to "a hex with absolutely nothing in it" then you're right. But we know that during the IW era Terrans figured out how to find brown dwarfs in 'empty hexes' and use those to jump to (it's made explicit in the IW book). And presumably the Vilani had figured this out in the early exploration phase of the First Imperium (and then forgot about it as they fossilised culturally).
But yes, the implication in canon is that nobody knew how to actually successfully jump into a completely empty hex until around the Aslan Border Wars (a few centuries before the founding of the Third Imperium). Which to be honest further implies to me that you actually needed the mass there to pull you out of jump space (and that you therefore had to precipitate out at 100D) before Some Bright Spark finally solved the equations to allow the ship to come out in empty space.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Majestic7 said:
Well, see, there is no debate, as it has been decisively pointed out to me repeatedly that I am the only one interested in the topic...
So clearly all you guys don't exist.
That said, do a search for empty hex jumps. The agreement you see is more that of lack of conflict due to exhaustion. A few notes to navigate by:
1. The canonicity of Interstellar wars (by GURPS) is not taken for granted by many.
2. The accuracy of the other source of the contention for Empty hex jumping being impossible in the early OTU is not taken for granted by many.
3. The distinction between EHJ being high risk vs Impossible is not believed to be clearly stated by many.
4. The canonicity of jump exit requiring a precipitating mass as a necc and sufficient cause is not taken for granted by many.
5. The canonicity of Canon is not accepted by many;
6. The contents of Canon is itself of questionable canonicity;
7. the source of canon decisions is disputed and may itelf not be canonical.
As a caveat, while I've tried to sum up some of the issues, I may be presenting Biased veiws, as I have ioppinions in the matter.these are:
1. GTIW is a worthy sourcebook, irrelegardless of Canon status
2. I question the validity of the verbatum inclusion of boardgame(s) rules to athe RPG setting.
3. This is my personal hobby horse, so read the threads..
4. I think its pretty clear that mass precipitation is not neccessary for Jump exit, although it is a convenient and lazy way to do so.
5. Yes.
6. Yes.
7. It should be me, and me alone.
I was tempted to write this up as a Nicean creed style catechism, but I recall that the last timne I did that, I actually managed to unintentionally annoy a few people....religion still being touchier than traveller.
captainjack23 said:
I'm familiar with the discussion in general, not from Mongoose forums but from other sources with the passing years. I actually avoided writing anything here for a long while since there seemed to be so much flaming going on.. now things seem to have cooled down.
However, it seems to me that the general consensus is that you can jump somehow in to hexes that are marked as "empty" on the maps? The question is mainly how and why that is possible, but it is just a detail to me. Either there are some points of mass within the parsec radius that the jump is aimed towards or it is simply calculated so that the ships drop out there. End result is pretty much the same. Gameplay implications can be very different, but that is IMTU part up to each GM and not anyone else. (Heh, I just had a mental image of some game group playing Traveller in a way X and a group of bearded nerds grappeling down the wall and through the window screaming "This is Traveller Canon Force! You are busted, heretics!")
Stating that jumping to an empty hex is always impossible begs for a good explanation what then happen to ships that plot a course for such destination or would end up there anyway through a misjump, incompetent (or insane) astrogator or equipment failure.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Oopsy. You got a few things wrong here......
Not vague at all. Explicitly stated as possible . Among other places, from the mouth of MWM himself (JTAS #3, I think ?)- and numerous adventures (TTAdv for one)
Unfortunately, this is wrong. It is explicit in Gurps Traveller, nowhere else; and as you know (GTIW status aside), the rule is that nothing in GURPS may be used to prove the CT/MT/T4/TNE body of work wrong. In fact, involuntary precipitation is generally denied elsewhere, and actually may have been included due to a misunderstanding. Plus, and in re your comments about the size of space (....big. really , really big.) Such events seem to have alsmost no liklihood of occuring.
Yes it has. Anywhere is a potential exit point outside of 100d areas. JTAS articles to name a few. Again, MWM.
Personally is fine. MTU is fine. Unfortunately lots of what you say about the OTU isn't actually supported or supportable except as YTU...no insult, I know you haven't had much interest in or exposure to the pre TNE stuff until now. You probably should be aware that lots of stuff isn't in TNE becuase it was seen as building on the past editions -but there were also lots of chages for a clean break (like the HEPLAR/Thrustrer change). Its confusing, and despite what one may think about the quality of the final TNE product, the transition was kind of half one half another.
There's lots of good stuff summarizing many of these issues at Freelance traveller, and , if you have access, some heated debates archived at COTI boards; plus, the JTAS collections are invaluble in adressing most of these issues, as they were the main author/consumer connection before the all too easy and unbiased internet.......
EDG said:
Not vague at all. Explicitly stated as possible . Among other places, from the mouth of MWM himself (JTAS #3, I think ?)- and numerous adventures (TTAdv for one)
Yes, that is correct. From CT LBB even.EDG said:
Unfortunately, this is wrong. It is explicit in Gurps Traveller, nowhere else; and as you know (GTIW status aside), the rule is that nothing in GURPS may be used to prove the CT/MT/T4/TNE body of work wrong. In fact, involuntary precipitation is generally denied elsewhere, and actually may have been included due to a misunderstanding. Plus, and in re your comments about the size of space (....big. really , really big.) Such events seem to have alsmost no liklihood of occuring.
Yes it has. Anywhere is a potential exit point outside of 100d areas. JTAS articles to name a few. Again, MWM.
Personally is fine. MTU is fine. Unfortunately lots of what you say about the OTU isn't actually supported or supportable except as YTU...no insult, I know you haven't had much interest in or exposure to the pre TNE stuff until now. You probably should be aware that lots of stuff isn't in TNE becuase it was seen as building on the past editions -but there were also lots of chages for a clean break (like the HEPLAR/Thrustrer change). Its confusing, and despite what one may think about the quality of the final TNE product, the transition was kind of half one half another.
There's lots of good stuff summarizing many of these issues at Freelance traveller, and , if you have access, some heated debates archived at COTI boards; plus, the JTAS collections are invaluble in adressing most of these issues, as they were the main author/consumer connection before the all too easy and unbiased internet.......
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Majestic7 said:
Speaking as a bearded nerd -
....I suspect they would look more like Blake's 7, or possibly a bunch of amped up Whovian fans, but that's just me.Yes, the concensus does seem to be that one can (currently, in the OTU post aslan wars, etc etc) plot a course to an empty hex and just jump out. The wjhole mass thing is from the historical perspective, and involves a couple of issues such as "in the Interstellar wars period, why didnt one side or another jump AROUND the strategic choke points thru empty space"; "how did the Vilanii get where they went with only jump 1", and while Gurps interstellar wars is one hell of a fine work, should its sidebox quick blurb about mass requirements be taken as gospel, literal, or just imaginary".
I thought of two ways to describe why that might or might not be an issue as I'm typing this....
I need help..........but luckily, Empty hex jumps currently are absolutely allowed, and currently need no mass whatsoever for the exit or the entry point.
The impossibility issues do exist for the pre - EHJ period...which is why my personal Hobbyhorse is to to describe them as "insanely dangerous" but not impossible. But, MTU.
Where one went in a misjump before EHJ's were possible is a mystery, but except for finding the cold mummy filled hulks drifting between stars as an adventure, not a big issue. Say.........
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
Yes ! And add in, "once you no longer simulate a fish, you burst out of the water" and that's it. Which somewhat strains the metaphor, but that happens.....
Thanks for the effort....I really wish I had your knack for putting things simply.
If it is something else, I would need a translation ...
Well, bablefish translating technobabble to english, I get:
"And of the many spheres that are rotating; depend on the source, for it has ears. Many types slowly electrified above as below when intangible benefits are ejected. resemble fully or deny; all rot eventually recharges when spinning weeps".
I'm not sure if that makes more sense in German, perhaps ?
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:
Yes, its like Deja Vu all over again....
captainjack23 said:"And of the many spheres that are rotating; depend on the source, for it has ears. Many types slowly electrified above as below when intangible benefits are ejected. resemble fully or deny; all rot eventually recharges when spinning weeps".
I'm not sure if that makes more sense in German, perhaps ?
Ah, this gives me that warm feeling of being back home again, because
it reads exactly like our Finanzamt's (Internal Revenue Service's) expla-
nation of how they calculated my taxes ...
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
rust said:captainjack23 said:"And of the many spheres that are rotating; depend on the source, for it has ears. Many types slowly electrified above as below when intangible benefits are ejected. resemble fully or deny; all rot eventually recharges when spinning weeps".
I'm not sure if that makes more sense in German, perhaps ?
Ah, this gives me that warm feeling of being back home again, because
it reads exactly like our Finanzamt's (Internal Revenue Service's) expla-
nation of how they calculated my taxes ...
I'm so glad I could do that for you........I suppose.
So, do you suppose the original tax documentation was originally written in Linear A and has just been translated from language to language by whatever equiv of babelfish existed ?
Explains alot, if so.
Well, I'd argue that before the discovery of the Advanced Jumpspace Theorum (we really need to come up with a name for the inventor of that, incidentally., Since it was during the Solomani-Aslan border wars, lets be non-chauvinist and assume she was a Fteirle' mathematician...)(The status of her footwear is a separate debate.) it would go like this:Majestic7 said:
You can devote the entire computational resources of a major industrialised planet for five years to calculate the correct jump coordinates for a one-off jump into deep space.
or
You can guess.
If you guess, and the hex is genuinely empty, you have a 99.99999999% chance of misjumping. Or, there's a 0.00000001% chance that you guessed right, and you arrive at your destination safe and sound.
But! What happens if there's actually an undiscovered planetoid or brown dwarf in the hex? Well, there's a small (but much larger than 0.00000001%) chance that you'll be precipitated out of jump by that object, and you've arrived at your destination safely! And also made a major discovery that will revolutionise trade and colonisation patterns for parsecs around...
So what happens if you misjump? Well, my own opinion is that you emerge from jump anywhere in a 36-parsec 4-dimensional radius of your start point. 4-dimensional, because you might not precipitate back into our space at all; you might enter a higher or lower band of jumpspace that's starkly inconceivable to mere three-dimensional intellects, and be instantly obliterated. (Sorry, channelling Doc Smith there...) It's almost totally random where you end up - although mass points exert a jumpspace field which distorts the probability - and you may even come out exactly where you wanted to go. I wouldn't put money on it, though...
