ISA, Vorlon, Shadows overpowered?

[Marco Raimeous]

I have heard it said that the ISA, Vorlons, and the Shadows are considered to be generally over powered fleets and therefore should not be played consecutively. Or that there was some general ruling that they not be played as normal fleets....not exactly sure.

I thought 2ed was supposed to fix the balance problems.

Anyways have you guys heard this before? After winning lots of games with 2ed Vorlons, my GM stated that maybe he would enforce this rule.... I obviously wouldn't like it due to the fact that vorlons are the only mini's I posess however I just want to know if there is such a ruling saying they are indeed overpowered.

Personally I do not believe they are due to may weaknesses that can and often are exploited. (ie F Arc weapons, lack of fighter protection, one weapon to fire, lack of manuverability coupled with F arc Weapons, etc...)

Thanks
Marco

 

[CZuschlag]

I'm sorta surprised.

ISA? I'd say so, with the White Stars I and II, and the Blue Star, being the prime offenders.

Vorlons? I think they're very fair, especially for a group without a Raid option. The powerful Vorlon fighter keeps them competitive; however, in most games, any CVA worth its salt should keep these little horrors in a mainly defensive role. Two Brokados, Avengers, or Garasoch, for example, are almost a mortal lock to get the job done.

Shadows? I've thought them to be weak, almost terminally hamstrung by a lack of Skirmish choices and a viable Auxilliary Craft. I, personally, think it takes a great deal of skill to win with these, even if the Scout is a powerful vessel.

 

[Triggy]

In terms of Shadows and Vorlons - both are fleets that often perform poorly with beginners at the helm as they have distinct styles. However as the player gets better, the fleets can really be taken advantage of. Then comes the point when other players forget that their weaknesses are different too (as you point out) and they really need to stop focussing on what worries them and force the Vorlon/Shadow player to worry about their fleet. Basically they're probably as balanced as most other fleets out there.

The Interstellar Alliance however in many players' opinions are a bit too good, with them being harder to kill than average, massively fast and manoeuvrable and having above average firepower too. They have a few smaller weaknesses like susceptibility to fighters but frankly once a player plays to their strengths they are one of the best fleets out there.

 

[katadder]

I wouldnt say the ISA are that over the top.
they are vunerable to fighters, e-mines, as well as fleets that dont do alot of damage per weapon but have multiple weapons.
you need to get lots of random hits against ISA - something like a g'quan should split its batteries against at least 2 targets as 1 hit = 1 damage even with the AA.
they are also have low crew so tend to be decrewed alot and if you can cripple one then board it and ignore the AA.

one thing that may fix peoples problems with the ISA is making WSs (including the gunship and carrier) boresight. 2AD TD P beam may be a bit much for forward arc but a 1AD beam doesnt cut it on a raid ship with the beam rules. better to make it boresight to help balance it.

 

[Triggy]

I wouldnt say the ISA are that over the top.
they are vunerable to fighters, e-mines, as well as fleets that dont do alot of damage per weapon but have multiple weapons.
you need to get lots of random hits against ISA - something like a g'quan should split its batteries against at least 2 targets as 1 hit = 1 damage even with the AA.
they are also have low crew so tend to be decrewed alot and if you can cripple one then board it and ignore the AA.

one thing that may fix peoples problems with the ISA is making WSs (including the gunship and carrier) boresight. 2AD TD P beam may be a bit much for forward arc but a 1AD beam doesnt cut it on a raid ship with the beam rules. better to make it boresight to help balance it.

Strangely enough this is what I (and others) have suggested too on several occasions (including playtesting)... I don't consider them that over the top but properly used, they are one of the best fleets out there.

 

[dag'karlove]

I Think you all Miss the point that there are supposed to be Overpowered fleets. The Shadows and Vorlons are anciets after all and Mpst of The ISA ships are made with either Minbarri or Vorlon Tech or a combo of both. They are supposed to be "Overpowered".

 

[katadder]

you miss the point that its a game and things at equal level should balance up to a degree anyway.

as for boresight suggestion, I know triggy, me an some others suggested it in initial playtesting of 2e too

 

[Triggy]

katadder - indeed

dag'karlove - I think you may be missing the point of the Priority Level system. This means ships of equal size/role in a race's fleet (e.g. Minbari Sharlin, EA Omega, Raider Battlewagon, Vorlon Heavy Cruiser, etc.) have different abilities and power levels.

However, this is balanced out by the fact they are all given different values (Priority Levels). The whole point of the PL system is that any ship at a given PL should have an equal value in the fleet it plays in (e.g. a Minbari Tinashi should be as valuable to a Minbari fleet as a Vorlon Destroyer or EA Omega is).

 

[dag'karlove]

Nope I completely get it. They should all be roughly the same size and have a Cruiser or carrier or etc etc type of ability. However the tech that drives said abilities is different and well sorry but all tech in the B5 universe is not equal.

 

[wkehrman]

you miss the point that its a game and things at equal level should balance up to a degree anyway.

The phrase "balance up to a degree" means some imbalance. What is the point of the qualification?

Should the seeking of this balance you desire (to some degree anyway) cause the game to track away from the B5 mythos?

 

[Triggy]

Nope I completely get it. They should all be roughly the same size and have a Cruiser or carrier or etc etc type of ability. However the tech that drives said abilities is different and well sorry but all tech in the B5 universe is not equal.

And that's why the Shadow/Vorlon ships are at higher PLs than those of other fleets! They have more traits to represent their tech and this makes their ships better.

However in ACtA, this means they have a higher PL and therefore can be beaten by other races taking more of the ships that perform the same role.

 

[Marco Raimeous]

Ok, so this is a myth that these three fleets had some sort of rule saying they are generally overpowered and thus should not be played as playable fleet.

That clears that up, I do believe that in order to make a game like this workable, all of the participating fleets need to be balanced in varying ways which can come at the expense of fluff. As said, if the vorlons were pound for pound the ones from the series, nothing could stand up to them which would make every other ACTA player not want to go against them.

Fluff is all good and is very fun to create ships out of but balance should be first and formost to make the game generally fair for all. That being said, knowing your enemy, and the strengths of your fleet can generally enhance the changes of victory which I believe I have done a fair job of in the past and that is why the issue came up in our group.

 

[skavendan]

Your problem with the ISA is that the combined defensive system allows them a 5+ save a 4+ dodge halfing damage still firing one weapon and moving at full speed they laugh at beaching pods there scouts so they can "mark" something Yes I've seen the ISA mark fighters to then shoot at with an accurate weapon talk about making sure you get the job done.

And on top of that they can chose just about any allie for the job that's what annoys me, particularly as a PSI CORPS player where people deal EA allies rubbish there the same empire or at least at one point in the history they are!

O and not to mention they can get anti fighter from the escort ship and interceptors from the campaign refits let's just not talk about cheesy whitestar fighters are!

What's that you say you nearly killed a whitestar? I will skin dance then! o wait did I ram you by accident on purpose? What a load of BS!

It is true some races do not have a problem dealing with them BUT from my point of view there a nightmare to deal with, and in a campaign situation what are you suppose to do part from go well heres a suprise I am conceeding the battle FREE RR points there you go!

Shadows/Vorlons I don't mind they have weaknesses.

 

[katadder]

if the ISA are on close blast doors whats the point in tagging someone? as you will probably be firing your beam.
yes they can get allies that overcome weaknesses, and psi-corps are not the same as EA, when the EA crew of the excalibur encountered a hunter they didnt know it was an earth black ops ship.
the ISA escort cannot keep up with said WSs.

the WS has damage 10 - now with dodge you could say equivalent to damage 20. then AA doesnt always count for double so I would say about damage 30.
lots of raid ships have damage 30, some even more alongside other defenses like interceptors, shields, GEGs etc. the WS is on par with these for damage. ok it can get around the battlefield quicker but it only has one arc - 6,4 crit and bye bye all weapons. also against another raid ship if it has interceptors pretty much only the beam is of any use in the fight as the interceptors will more than likely stop the few hits you get with the MPs.
people say its faster than most fighters, but even speed 12 fighters can catch them and get in range due to the WS having to actually move before a turn and between turns. and with fighters moving last you should never have your fighters in MP range of a WS anyway.

people think they are broken, but then thats probably cos the ISA have been lucky with dodges, sometimes they dodge all, other times they dodge nothing. the same can be said about minbari stealth, if you break stealth all the time they appear weak, if you fail all the time they appear broken.

 

[skavendan]

The point in tagging something as they have other weapons like gay ass white star fighters and blue stars.

Also once the whitestar fighters and allied e-mines are done the opposition has little to no fighters so don't give me this weak to fighters rubbish accurate weapons make a mockery of fighters.

It is faster than most fighters and it's range is more than 2" thus it fires at fighters at range your point here is abit flawed as the whitestars massivly good range and very fast makes it hard to pin down or catch.

And as stated it just has to go slow and blast away with the escort near by to take out all those fighters.

I suppose the major issue is dodge. It negatives damage and possible criticals and as crits seem to be the main point in most things they are shielded from that with a good dodge.

Another major point in my eyes is how come some Special orders are autopassable and others you have to roll for seems abit silly. Also makes a mockery of coms-distruptor only affective use that has is for repairing things.

I also hate that a carrier can DODGE while under close blast doors and recover fighters. I'd like to see a carrier doing that in real life o dear we killed most the fighters ooops

You didn't comment on Skin Dancing so I presume you acknowledge that is it broken!

Also as stated many a time the actual events of the show don't follow onto the game as it is a game and suppose to have some balancing point. I mean if we use the show as a referrence then the PSI Corp should only ever have 7 motherships. As it is stated in the show there is only 7 and in the actualy 2E fleet book it says in the description.

 

[katadder]

WS fighters have to come within AF range to do the job, and they are quite expensive.

sure it is faster than most fighters but due to havig to turn and move a certain amount its actually easy enough to catch.
yes it outranges most fighters, but that range is 10". you got a speed 12 fighter sit at 11" he cant get you and then see where he goes next. remember fighters always move last so there is no reason they should get shot down by WSs.

going slow and keeping an escort close goes against the whole point of WSs.

dodge negates crits, but then so do interceptors and shields on other vessels.

well if the enemy has allied e-mines its on a ship thats easier to kill, so kill that before launching fighters, as well as hes cutting down on the number of WSs so completely negates all the complaining.

you think these are bad, Wss used to have 3+ dodge.

 

[skavendan]

WS fighters have to come within AF range to do the job, and they are quite expensive.

Not if you got them from a whitestar carrier there not there free! And as far as cost goes they should be expensive! No other fighter is accurate!2 for a patrol level is a bargin when you look at other fighters that are 2 for a patrol point!

sure it is faster than most fighters but due to havig to turn and move a certain amount its actually easy enough to catch.
yes it outranges most fighters, but that range is 10". you got a speed 12 fighter sit at 11" he cant get you and then see where he goes next. remember fighters always move last so there is no reason they should get shot down by WSs.

I can conceed that point but they will most likely ally a gaim ship and in all probability the shaakak-class Queen light Raider. E-mine turret 30" no where to run

going slow and keeping an escort close goes against the whole point of WSs.

It's speed 8 only has to keep within 6" not too hard and can all power to engines to keep a decent distance

dodge negates crits, but then so do interceptors and shields on other vessels.

Interceptors are no where near as good as dodge, also don't work on beams/mini-beams! And you should know beams are the killer weapon in ACTA. Shields are shields they have a finite number once there down there down!

well if the enemy has allied e-mines its on a ship thats easier to kill, so kill that before launching fighters, as well as hes cutting down on the number of WSs so completely negates all the complaining.

Raid level gaim as I already said not too high only 1 ws down for taking it. Though that does bring a point to mind. Since the Queen's are worth Double VPS does that count when you ally them?

you think these are bad, Wss used to have 3+ dodge.

Bah how much cheese do they want! They still have a 3+ on the bluestar, at least it can not close blast doors and fire.

Which brings me to another point warp bombing that is rather harsh thing the ISA can also do!

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Not if you got them from a whitestar carrier there not there free! And as far as cost goes they should be expensive! No other fighter is accurate!2 for a patrol level is a bargin when you look at other fighters that are 2 for a patrol point!

Tell me how I can get this mystical White Star Carrier for free. If the carrier isn't free, then neither are the fighters :roll:

 

[skavendan]

Not if you got them from a whitestar carrier there not there free! And as far as cost goes they should be expensive! No other fighter is accurate!2 for a patrol level is a bargin when you look at other fighters that are 2 for a patrol point!

Tell me how I can get this mystical White Star Carrier for free. If the carrier isn't free, then neither are the fighters :roll:

O for that you just have to bend over and let one of sheriden's bone head cronies give it you up the (_I_)

You do realise what the slang term is for "white star" is right? :wink:

OK that's enough humour for one post.

Those items in your sig still for sale?

 

[katadder]

the carrier is no better than a WS gunship in firepower really and cannot turn as well. it gains a raid point of WS fighters.
so for a war point you get 1 battle and one raid equivalent. not free to me.
on the accurate thing - porfatis dont get that but they do get AF1 which basically with range 2 gives a nice anti-fighter weapon

so we have an ISA fleet with a Gaim queen - which btw can only fire 2 e-mines and that every other turn, much better to take a g'karith.
it also has an escort to protect all 3 WSs and thats a skirmish so probably 2 bluestars too. really doesnt seem overpowered for a 5pt fleet.
3 WSs that can do the major damage, 2 bluestars for harrassment and a Gaim queen for support.
the nolo'tar and gaim queen dont have dodge so are easier targets to take.

Interceptors: ok they cant stop beams, but try fighting dilgar - interceptors 2 will stop the 1st few bolter shots, and then give you a save of 6+ against every other bolter. the dodge is 50/50 against them all.

Shields: once they are gone they come back in the end phase to a degree but they still protect you from crits for the 1st few shots.