Is The K'kree Navy A Threat - I Think Not! / Virus

A.I. is possible from TL11+ according to CT LBB:8

According to the MT timeline AI robots were built for Terran officers during the later Interstellar Wars era - TL12.

Self awareness an artificial sentience is TL16 or TL17 depending on if you go by the text or the design table (typical DGP production values).
 
Wil Mireu said:
Until Virus came along, true AI wasn't possible at Imperial TLs.

Been there since CT Adventure 1, The Kinunir. But quite silly given the technological assumptions anyways.

IMTU, the Imperium wiped AI's which controlled ships, factories, robots etc; because after about four years they began to develop their own emotional responses.
 
This thought came to me while I was researching Star Wars droids.

What if the best way to control robots is to deliberately mind wipe them every few months an reload the programs you want them to have.

From TL12+ you limit the learning of your robotic slaves by mindwiping them back to a less "developed" state (still lvl4 in the skills of your choice).
 
I'm drawing on Blade Runner to give pathos to the whole virus meme myself.

About a year back I had a player as a robot from the Imperium, who could not declare themselves sentient with out a mind wipe coming as punishment, but; who when entering one of the frontier republics, was automatically free.

It changes the paradigm, kind of fun to explore as well.
 
Sigtrygg said:
A.I. is possible from TL11+ according to CT LBB:8

According to the MT timeline AI robots were built for Terran officers during the later Interstellar Wars era - TL12.

Self awareness an artificial sentience is TL16 or TL17 depending on if you go by the text or the design table (typical DGP production values).

That's the point. True AI for this purpose is "self-awareness" and that isn't possible until TL 16.

The "AI" that's below that is like what Curiosity has today - it can smart enough to solve problems (e.g. a rock in front of it that it should steer around) but not intelligent enough to think that should have rights and that it's being oppressed or mistreated, or come up with its own solutions for things on the fly. It's what Transhuman Space would call "NAI" (non-sentient AI).
 
Sigtrygg said:
Does the MgT Robots book mention Virus an the New Era?

The Robots book is not tied to the Imperiums setting, and talks about various robot and AI plot lines in general instead of being setting specific. Even if it were expressly for the setting, Mongoose is firmly fixed at 1105, and even the CT adventure that introduced the Cymbalines is after that.
 
Solomani666 said:
I personally don't see how the K'kree could possibly be a threat to the Imperium militarily.
Granted they can be a serious force to contend with on the ground,
but in order to attack another system they need to travel through space first to get there.

While this thread has veered quite a bit from its original topic, I've thought about the K'kree problem as well.

I think the assumption is that the K'kree are "meant to fail" by the writers as not to compete with we humans and our smug ideas of superiority (GURPS K'kree materials are a great illustration of this). However, it's an interesting thought exercise to imagine how the K'kree might tackle such problems. If we assume K'kree are more than just some Traveller writer's half-joke race, we would assume they're intelligent and perceptive (in fact, as a rule, as herd animals and herbivores, K'kree would be vastly more perceptive than humans). This means they'd be aware of their shortcomings and strive to overcome them once they met an opponent that made them aware of their shortcomings. ("It appears these humans can tolerate confinement in these small spaces for long periods of time. As disgusting as the idea is, it means they can build their ships smaller and cheaper than ours...")

I could imagine the K'kree organizing their fleets around the idea of "herdships" which would be the equivalent of Battle Riders. These would be enormous, ponderous, and vulnerable ships. The K'kree would be well aware of this and strive to keep them out of combat. They'd carry the enormous herds of non-combatant dependents as well as the serving members of the fleet. Several of these would make the core of the fleet. Like aircraft carriers today, they would not actually do the fighting.

The fighting would be conducted by smaller ships, the equivalent of destroyers or corvettes and up. They would be fast, reasonably well-protected, but their primary need would be to carry weapons for their task. Some would be expected shoot down enemy missiles or fighters. Others to tangle with enemy destroyers and cruisers. The largest would be designed with weapons that would hurt a battleship. They'd have sufficient crew so that a K'kree would not feel isolated but small enough so that the loss of the ship would be acceptable to the fleet's strength. The trick is, despite their size, they are not independent ships. They are more like "K'kree fighters" and have missions of relatively short duration. They would have limited life support duration and no jump drives. They would be launched from the herdship for some purpose, be it combat patrol, strike, or whatever then would return once that job is done. They're considered cramped and uncomfortable, but acceptable for missions of relatively short duration.

These smaller ships do not have a lot of the features you'd expect of a human starship. It's pointed out that K'kree have less of a sense that individuals need to be protected; most are perfectly fine with being the one who "takes a hit for the herd." This is practical acceptance of reality would be a large advantage K'kree have over humans. For instance, on these battle riders, the crew compartment of the ship would have some protection, but the interior would be communal. A good hit to the compartment would cause a blowout that would kill all of the crew; there's no "escape pods" or vacc suits. Combat is dangerous and such losses are considered just part of war (in fact, K'kree might have a herbivore fear of crippling injury over death - they'd rather die than to linger on with a broken limb, left behind by the herd).

Tactically you'd see this sort of thing as well. The herdships would not fight. If the enemy managed to break through in sufficient numbers to hurt the herdships, they'd simply jump out (they'd be designed with fuel tankage to perform two jumps on a single fueling). The battle riders that couldn't get back to the herdships would simply be left behind; again to the K'kree this is acceptable. The warriors in their battle riders would seek out glorious deaths. This tactic would be noticed and exploited by foes, so perhaps the K'kree mix it up. A large herdfleet "double bunks" its battle riders onto half of the herdfleet, which jumps to a destination. A day later, the other half jumps. In the destination system, the first herdfleet shows up, deploys battle riders and immediately jumps out. A day later, the second herdfleet shows up to pick up survivors.
 
I like the idea of herd ships and leads me to thinking the K'kree military personality reflects their herd mentality. What they lack in quality they make up in quantity. Their forces are huge in number. It's just their nature.

The thing is, they don't need fleets and ground forces in actual threatening numbers, just enough to feel safe and get certain jobs done like hunting down meat eating races within their borders. The Hivers gave them a bloody nose and made them behave, Imperials aren't a real threat because there's a 60 parsec 'fence' between them and humans have the insight to send emissaries that don't antagonize their neighbor while being accommodating to K'kree in human space. Vargr and aslan are just too far away. K'kree are comfortable in the own space. Add in their highly conservative nature and they are a footnote in Traveller space. The only threat the pose comes from that obsessive-compulsive hatred for any meat eating lifeform especially smart one, the ultimate boogeyman. Most of their military would exist for no other reason than paranoia.
 
Epicenter said:
While this thread has veered quite a bit from its original topic, I've thought about the K'kree problem as well.

I could imagine the K'kree organizing their fleets around the idea of "herdships" which would be the equivalent of Battle Riders.

Ooh, I had not thought of that! Keep in mind even in Classic Traveller, there are some ship design limitations. They are:
K'kree military vessels do not carry females or children. They are still a herd, just no noncoms
K'kree favor flattened sphere configurations
Staterooms are 48 tons per K'kree at MCr1 per K'kree. Double Staterooms are 24 tons per K'kree and cost MCr2 per K'kree.
K'kree ship weapons are droubled cost and tonnage (including the turret), and fire control takes up two tons.
Troops act as servants when not actually in combat.
K'kree favor used remote control drones as fighters.

I am designing a K'kree dreadnought using old CT High Guard design rules along with the old K'kree Alien Module modifications. I am using the Tigress Class Dreadnought as a base and working from there. I double the tonnage and cost of all weapons, not just the turrets. By getting rid of the flight deck and reducing Jump to 2 (and associated crew), my 500,000 ton ship needs a total of around 540,000 tons with everyone using double occupancy. I can skim it down some more, but base idea I am thinking is that K'kree military vessels are:
Cramped (double occupancy)
Do not travel far (reducing Jump to make up space)
Require more combined fleets (to make up the fighter wings)
More specialized ships perhaps (same reason)
 
Nathan Brazil said:
Ooh, I had not thought of that! Keep in mind even in Classic Traveller, there are some ship design limitations. They are:
K'kree military vessels do not carry females or children. They are still a herd, just no noncoms
K'kree favor flattened sphere configurations
Staterooms are 48 tons per K'kree at MCr1 per K'kree. Double Staterooms are 24 tons per K'kree and cost MCr2 per K'kree.
K'kree ship weapons are droubled cost and tonnage (including the turret), and fire control takes up two tons.
Troops act as servants when not actually in combat.
K'kree favor used remote control drones as fighters.

I am designing a K'kree dreadnought using old CT High Guard design rules along with the old K'kree Alien Module modifications. I am using the Tigress Class Dreadnought as a base and working from there. I double the tonnage and cost of all weapons, not just the turrets. By getting rid of the flight deck and reducing Jump to 2 (and associated crew), my 500,000 ton ship needs a total of around 540,000 tons with everyone using double occupancy. I can skim it down some more, but base idea I am thinking is that K'kree military vessels are:
Cramped (double occupancy)
Do not travel far (reducing Jump to make up space)
Require more combined fleets (to make up the fighter wings)
More specialized ships perhaps (same reason)

Yeah, it's a bit different, but I don't think it really changes very much in my view. The herdship isn't really considered a combat ship. I imagine their early herdships were essentially enormous O'Neil cylinders with Jump drives on them. Later, with artificial gravity they made the more iconic flattened "flying saucer" look ships. Either way, they are the home base for the "strike arm" but are not true fighting ships themselves. However, it allows a K'kree herd to travel together, important for psychological reasons. When not in combat, it allows everyone to mingle.

The herdship is basically an enormous tender, mirroring the K'kree herd itself; numerous other, smaller ships handle things like transporting fuel and topping off consumables (though the herdship strives for a closed ecosystem). By eliminating a lot of the K'kree-specific life support needs from the riders, they can be built more competitively to other race's ships (while still lagging a bit behind). The need for sky and soil and so on is fulfilled by the herdship.

The short-duration ships (the "riders" of the battle rider system) would be fairly large ships, but would save on the mass for the Jump drive and extended life support. Since missions would be of short duration, it's easier for the K'kree to be a cramped (for them) ship thinking, "That's okay, in a few hours I'll be back with the herd." Defeating enemy fighters and so on would be handled by "carriers" which would be battle riders that are dedicated to controlling and launching large numbers of remote drones.

I could imagine a K'kree "meson gun spinal mount" would pretty much be a flying meson gun - as small of a crew compartment as the K'kree could handle, an enormous meson gun, the reactor array to power it, the computers to focus and fire it, and maneuver drives. It wouldn't really have secondary weapons - it'd depend on cover from other ships.
 
Likely the heavy use of AR, and smart materials for nearly all surfaces, would be employed to help mitigate the more "extreme" feelings of claustrophobia... at least for short-term usage.

The point being that conditions are only temporary, and the individuals in the smaller ships know that.
 
Going with the herd mentality thought as well, one could also say their fleets are huge and that seeing one K'kree ship is scary because you would know there are a thousand more nearby.
 
Also, if the ship walls are made of transparent armour the problem of claustrophobia might be less... I can't remember the K'kree being especially afraid of open space.
 
More points to consider. In generating K'Kree Naval Bases and outposts. There are two conflicting methods of generating base true. In the CT Alien Module
On page 27 it says to use normal procedures, I am assuming from Book 3, or the relevant section in Traveller Book or Starter Traveller. The roll for Naval Bases is 8+ only at A or B starports. This would result in only 16% or 17% of K'kree generated systems.

However, on page 26 in the summary charts, it shows that K'kree Naval bases are found on a 7+ resulting in 58% of K'kree generated systems, as there are no DM's or restrictions based on Starport. Even Starport X.

If the more militant option is the case, well now. 58% of K'kree systems with a fully stocked ready to rock naval base. May explain their slow expansion, Can't have the settlers move in until the fort is built and the natives, er, vermin, er, g'naak exterminated.
"Captain send out the cavalry, um, troops. The natives are eating the settlers again."
"But, Colonel. Won't they eat us too?"
"Get out there and take your pointy sticks. FOR THE HERD!"
 
Lord High Munchkin said:
Also, if the ship walls are made of transparent armour the problem of claustrophobia might be less... I can't remember the K'kree being especially afraid of open space.
On CT K'kree ships
Accommodations: K'kree need a great deal of space, both because of physical size and because of the need to avoid the claustrophobia so dominant in K'kree makeup. "Staterooms" are not constructed; K'kree ship interiors are large open spaces featuring synthetic grass, a sky-like overhead, and, frequently, holographic images of prairie on all sides. A few areas (the bridge, for instance) may be partitioned off by curtains or light, translucent dividers, but this is the extent of K'kree internal compartmentalization.
and
Deck plans of K'kree ships, even these comparatively small ones, are prohibitively large to include. If referee's wish to assemble plans of their own, space allocation will be similar to that given for human ships in the basic Traveller system.
K'kree ship designs, however, are distinctive. The vast majority of K'kree ships are flattened spheres; the appearance is similar to a dome-shaped K'kree city, and reminiscent of the classic "flying saucer". Within, there are 1 112 decks; the main, full deck where the crew lives and works, and a half deck only 1 meter tall into which all machinery and fuel is placed. Access to the drive spaces is exclusively from above.
The living quarters area is 6 meters high, not 3 meters; each square thus represents one ton of space, instead of 1 12 ton as on human ships.
 
Nathan Brazil said:
Staterooms are 48 tons per K'kree at MCr1 per K'kree. Double Staterooms are 24 tons per K'kree and cost MCr2 per K'kree.
As someone with no experience of CT, TNE etc this has been very informative, and the "herdship" idea is very interesting.

Anyway, time to put in my 2Cr;
1. If the K'Kree were not just meant as a 500Kg joke, are we taking their herd ancestory a little too literally? No-one argues that, because humans evolved to hunt game on the African savannah, Imperial warships need large hunting spaces and sharp sticks to make the crew feel healthy. Perhaps technologically advanced K'Kree have also developed their societies to better cope with things like space travel. This idea about enormous K'Kree staterooms assumes that the K'Kree needs this space, but what for?, Domesticated herd animals (e.g. horses) manage perfectly well with small stalls in a stable, wouldn't K'kree just fold up their legs to sleep, they wouldn't need a bed, and would not want the "personal space" humans need to retreat into. Certainly communal areas would be bigger, but then the K'Kree are large creatures.
2. Why would K'Kree need their weapons mounts to be twice as big? As has been pointed out on other threads, the idea of manned weapon mounts is very mid twentieth century, the K'Kree could have their gunners in rooms well away from the weapon mounts, which are remote controlled. If K'Kree mounts are twice as big, its because, as large beings who think big, those mounts do twice as much damage.
3. Similarly, the idea that K'Kree ships would be enormous, undivided, spaces just seems too literal, as intelligent sophants the K'Kree will appreciate the need for internal sub-division to reduce the vulnerability of the ship.
4. The stars are the ultimate big sky, I could certainly see K'Kree ships having a lot of windows, perhaps constructed out of a large number of transparent modules, but also, as intelligent beings, blast proof shutters to cover them when the need for security outweighs the need for stargazing.
Just a thought or two.
Egil
 
Egil Skallagrimsson said:
Anyway, time to put in my 2Cr;
1. If the K'Kree were not just meant as a 500Kg joke, are we taking their herd ancestory a little too literally?

I don't think anyone here is. Just trying to make sense of what the author wanted. Personally, I'm of the exact same mind you are. We changed to live in modern environments, they would also.
 
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