Is The K'kree Navy A Threat - I Think Not! / Virus
- Thread starter Solomani666
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Nathan Brazil
Banded Mongoose
Form follows Function. I would modify to make Form follows Function follows Need.Wil Mireu said:
The approach they take for ships even in early development is consistent with their needs. They started with spacecraft only because they found g'naak on their moon. Had that not been the case, they might not have even gone into space. Because of their NEED to feel safe and their NEED for travelling in groups, it all falls into place. But as the story goes, they saw g'naak before space travel. Must say something about K'kree optics technology that they could see them and that they could determine that they were g'naak.
Once they knew of those other worldly g'naak, they had to go up and kill them. It's in their NEED. Early experiments in K'kree space travel might have actually used chemical rockets and such, but to make them for K'kreed use the physics of mass, energy and biology would have tailored their approach. Just how small could they make the rocket and let "crazy loner" K'kree pilot them? Acceleration couches for K'kree? (does the K'kree stand or sit? How do they keep their necks up to look around?)
Nathan Brazil
Banded Mongoose
The majority of their ships are flattened spheres. In CT that means that the ships can land on planetary surfaces. This allows the K'kree to simply walk up the ramp onto their ships. Makes the ship's crew also your combat troops too. The aesthics of the artificial environment drove them to modify it to be more K'kree-like to survive the trip. It makes sense though that once gravity manipulation was developed, it all falls into place.Wil Mireu said:
People will argue that the K'kree might not have had the brains or tech background or agression or whatnot to develop gravity tech before or as an aspect of spaceflight. I will counter that when your family has the imminent threat of death looming every single moment, what will you do to have your family survive? I make that last statement overtly ominous because I think that is how the K'kree think of all g'naak. They would do anything. The closest parallel would be nuclear aspects of the Cold War. The US and the Soviets, as herds if you will, did everything they could to protect themselves from nukes from the other. The fear. The hysteria. The technological innovation.
My Little Ponies of Death and other jokes aside, that is why the K'kree are so dangerous.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
The old k'kree Alien Module I have (waiting for Mongoose's) States they were scared to death of an intelligent predator so close to them. It was their boogeyman come to life and they threw every fright into it not much different than terrans have with witches and aliens and we did everything when we though that person and their cats were actually witches. I'm sure the tales about what the G'naak grew more horrible by the day and everyone believed every word. Let's face it, they HAD to get them first! This is why the k'kree, as a unified race, put every resource into building a ramp to the stars.
As the book also says, the k'kree went full on intensive, never went trough a rocketry phase (figured out how impractical it was) but kept plugging until they found all the other elements for space travel. Works for me!
The war also lead to more efficient means of extermination through military applications.
Still in their paranoia the needed to find more predators the KNEW were out there waiting to get them and created Jump capability. Problem is they found what they feared.
And this is why they're dangerous. They are insane by many standards but have the guns and ships to back them.
Damn fine villain!
As the book also says, the k'kree went full on intensive, never went trough a rocketry phase (figured out how impractical it was) but kept plugging until they found all the other elements for space travel. Works for me!
The war also lead to more efficient means of extermination through military applications.
Still in their paranoia the needed to find more predators the KNEW were out there waiting to get them and created Jump capability. Problem is they found what they feared.
And this is why they're dangerous. They are insane by many standards but have the guns and ships to back them.
Damn fine villain!
K'Kree are like Kafers in 2300AD - they're the implacable foe that cannot be negotiated with. Ultimately, either they are wiped out, or they wipe everyone else out.
There is a dim possibility that they drop their ridiculously homicidal anti-carnivore religious zealotry, but they're so into it that I can't see it ever happen. They tried their big push when the Lords of Thunder took over after 'incorporating' Virus in TNE/1248, but it failed and they're pretty much on the verge of extinction after the dust settles (along with almost everyone else for that matter). THAT might be a time when more moderate elements might come to the fore, but it'd still be a struggle.
There is a dim possibility that they drop their ridiculously homicidal anti-carnivore religious zealotry, but they're so into it that I can't see it ever happen. They tried their big push when the Lords of Thunder took over after 'incorporating' Virus in TNE/1248, but it failed and they're pretty much on the verge of extinction after the dust settles (along with almost everyone else for that matter). THAT might be a time when more moderate elements might come to the fore, but it'd still be a struggle.
Nathan Brazil said:
I'll this toss this one out there, but ... what if the K'kree developed anti-gravity/grav-plates earlier than most other civilizations?
Though another thought might be that the K'kree have a sufficiently large population so they did have those "crazies" who can grit their teeth and take tight confinement. With a large enough population, 5% or even 1% of the population becomes a pretty large number. Even 0.001% becomes a sufficiently large number.
It's entirely possible the K'kree used such "crazies" to build a space station in orbit. Then they started transporting troops up. These troops would be in transport rockets crowded together in a tiny space ... and anesthetized for the trip to the station.
If the K'kree don't evolve their psychology (which I admit seems more likely), being anesthetized for various reasons might be pretty routine and acceptable to the K'kree who consider it uncomfortable but the lesser of two evils.
For instance, you could modify the herdship idea and put on small ships with Jump Drives. The claustrophobia of a cramped Jump-driven warship would be mitigated by the entire crew of the ship being either anesthetized or injected with a one-week dose of the Fast Drug while in Jumpspace. Since the length of a Jumpspace trip is set at one week (unless something goes wrong, in which case, just like for humans they're probably up a certain creek without a paddle anyway), they can measure out the dosage.
The mention that K'kree use remote fighters and remotes for various purposes also suggests that the K'kree might also have pretty good computer technology. Perhaps K'kree ships are bristling with automatic defenses and flexible routines to make their ships safe. So when a cramped K'kree ship comes out of Jumpspace and the crew are still groggy, these defenses keep the ship safe until the crew revives enough to handle combat (this is to ensure the 'man/k'kree-in-the-loop' thing that's so important in Traveller). If you want to give the K'kree an even more "alien" feeling, perhaps their landing vessels are similar. The large re-entry ships are packed with K'kree marines and their equipment with all of them anesthetized for the trip. Automatic defenses and naval support keep casualties acceptable until marines revive. Imperial forces who have faced K'kree might say things like, "Yeah, it sounds neat and clean to wipe them out while they're still sleeping, but it's a lot harder than it sounds."
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
This is why the K'kree hate us. We try to make them conform to our psychological standards. Their spaceships and starships function just fine. Military personnel train to tolerate more confined conditions (Enclosure skill). We don't demand everyone bare a 2 ton stateroom on human vessels just to save space and money.
I have an idea. I was just looking around the net for k'kree ships and they're as common as carnivorous centaurs. There are only a merchant, courier and frigate in the old sourcebook. What say we take the known elements to date about their designs and come up with what we think might exist.
Until we have a Mongoose version, we use the old book's parameters:
* Displacement is in multiples of 1000 at MCr .08. Other hull displacements cost MCr .1.
* No stateroom. Large, open space with certain areas partitioned by curtains or translucent dividers.
*Each person has 48 tons open space at a cost of MCr 1 per person. If all personnel have the Enclosure skill (military only and no females carried) then double occupancy of space is allowed. Non-military ships must accommodate every family member of each crew member.
* Low berth only for medical emergencies.
* Cargo may be carried either in specially designed holds or in the accommodation area if the ship personnel have more than 40 tons per individual. Personal baggage under 1 ton per person doesn't count.
* Weapons: As basic rule but tonnage and cost double. Gunner uses remote fire control stations at 2 tons grouped in a separate area.
* Streamlining is a standard feature on all ships.
* Small craft rarely carried
* Ships operate with minimal crews.
The 5000t frigate design in the book is a fairly standard independent craft and I think GDW assumed most ships are so but the herdship concept should be considered. I see k'kree 'fighters' the equivalent to human SDBs along with battle riders carried by huge herdships, the equivalent to carriers. Everything is huge and numerous.
I have an idea. I was just looking around the net for k'kree ships and they're as common as carnivorous centaurs. There are only a merchant, courier and frigate in the old sourcebook. What say we take the known elements to date about their designs and come up with what we think might exist.
Until we have a Mongoose version, we use the old book's parameters:
* Displacement is in multiples of 1000 at MCr .08. Other hull displacements cost MCr .1.
* No stateroom. Large, open space with certain areas partitioned by curtains or translucent dividers.
*Each person has 48 tons open space at a cost of MCr 1 per person. If all personnel have the Enclosure skill (military only and no females carried) then double occupancy of space is allowed. Non-military ships must accommodate every family member of each crew member.
* Low berth only for medical emergencies.
* Cargo may be carried either in specially designed holds or in the accommodation area if the ship personnel have more than 40 tons per individual. Personal baggage under 1 ton per person doesn't count.
* Weapons: As basic rule but tonnage and cost double. Gunner uses remote fire control stations at 2 tons grouped in a separate area.
* Streamlining is a standard feature on all ships.
* Small craft rarely carried
* Ships operate with minimal crews.
The 5000t frigate design in the book is a fairly standard independent craft and I think GDW assumed most ships are so but the herdship concept should be considered. I see k'kree 'fighters' the equivalent to human SDBs along with battle riders carried by huge herdships, the equivalent to carriers. Everything is huge and numerous.
Reynard said:
Reynard said:
Actually, you remind me of a very interesting point that I think most authors of K'kree stuff pass up.
The K'kree disliking enclosure is referred to as claustrophobia by us humans, but it's not actually accurate as to implication with the human condition of claustrophobia. K'kree are herd herbivores, meaning they actually have no problems being close to each other. In fact, they have no sense of "personal space" as 21st century 'Westerner' humans define it (I say this because not every group of humans have the same concept of personal space as most of us reading this post). I'll posit that the K'kree sense of disliking enclosure comes from the feeling that confined spaces restrict lines of sight - they get uneasy that they're becoming easy prey for predators because they can't see them at sufficient range to react to them.
The implication that this has for herd creature descended starfarers is pretty enormous.
For instance if we go with the idea that a K'kree requires 48 dtons of open space to feel comfortable. You could put another K'kree in the same space without the two K'kree feeling crowded at all. In fact you could probably fit in like ten K'kree into that space, perhaps even more. They don't have a problem spending 24/7 rubbing shoulders with another K'kree - they probably feel more comfortable that way. So in a sense, a K'kree vessel has a minimum size that is quite large by human standards, but you can keep adding quite a few K'kree to it without having to make the "stateroom" larger. As long as a K'kree can see, say, 10 meters out or it is another K'kree blocking his or her view, it's fine. So at some point, a K'kree vessel will actually be smaller than a human vessel that would carry the same population.
For instance, using that 48 tons of open space idea, to house one K'kree requires 48 tons. However, to add up to nineteen further K'kree to that requires no additional space. To carry another K'kree requires in the same open space requires another 2 tons of space, but those two tons allow you to carry up to four more K'kree before the area needs to be made larger again. If you want to create a discrete stateroom separate from the first, however, will require another 48 tons of open space.
The K'Kree can present as much of a threat as they need to. Focussing on the key differences (larger life support requirements; use of one single chamber subject to explosive decontamination) and wondering how they could ever have gotten spacecraft off their surface ignores that they are at a TL15 higher level with TL14 common enough to be considered average. The K'Kree have a more narrow range of technology levels world to world within their space. This means that they will be able to devote more industrial capability to production of "state of the art" military vessels. Presumably there will be variations within their technologies to deal with particular issues for the species. K'Kree self-sealing hull technology should be second to none, for example.
The need for more space within turrets and the quantity of space needed for each gunner will cause their larger military vessels to tend towards automated control of small betteries or slaving together multiple turrets to bear together on one single target to reduce the number of gunners needed per turret. Robot gunnery drones (automated fighters) will supplement the point defenses of their ships.
Fact - the Imperial Navy vessels, ton for ton, will outmatch the K'Kree. But the Imperial Navy, for all it's size, will not be able to maintain a general superiority in battle because the K'Kree will have the numbers. And fact - a spinal mount on a K'Kree vessel won't take up significantly different space than one mounted on an Imperial Navy vessel.
I don't have references to relative population, but assume the Third Imperium is substantially more populated than the K'Kree. But what has technological advantage and industrial superiority done for the Third Imperium against the Zhodani - losing ground each Frontier War. The Imperium suffers under a key weakness - the need to enforce its rule over its territory.
Massing its entire force against the K'Kree would invite incursions by the Solomani and Aslan, as well as embolden separatist movements within the Imperium. Fleets are maintained in all sectors (including those fuly within the boundaries of the Imperium) to show the flag and remind member states of the power of the Central Government. And there is a history of admirals given substantial fleets turning on the central government when the conflict is over (Admiral Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag). The Imperium just cannot concentrate its military might. It also can't impose greater taxes or demands on member worlds to suppport a war effort without needing local fleets to ensure compliance. The more the Emperor/nobility imposes their will on member worlds the more local military might is needed to back it up.
The K'Kree, on the other hoof, are organized, patriotic, and orderly. Fleets are not needed to enforce the law over their territory as much as the Imperium needs them. If you go to war against them, their response will be slow and cautious at first but you will find youself in a war against the entire empire of the Two Thousand Worlds - not just one reinforced sector fleet. Their economy can shift to a war footing more effectively than the Imperium can.
And while it is more expensive per soldier for the K'Kree to transport ground forces, this is more a factor influencing overall strategy and tactics than ability to invade. Viewing citizens of the Third Imperium as carnivorous barbarians they may be willing to put more reliance on orbital bombardment and use of drones.
And while what I have described (greater numbers, larger ships, more concentrated firepower) implies waging war like a blunt instrument it is important to remember that the K'Kree are as intelligent as Humans and are (within their conservative structures) capable of adapting their tactics to make better use of their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses. (Think of how Imperial Japan, arguably a very conservative society as well, learned the value of naval aviation before the US Navy did).
The need for more space within turrets and the quantity of space needed for each gunner will cause their larger military vessels to tend towards automated control of small betteries or slaving together multiple turrets to bear together on one single target to reduce the number of gunners needed per turret. Robot gunnery drones (automated fighters) will supplement the point defenses of their ships.
Fact - the Imperial Navy vessels, ton for ton, will outmatch the K'Kree. But the Imperial Navy, for all it's size, will not be able to maintain a general superiority in battle because the K'Kree will have the numbers. And fact - a spinal mount on a K'Kree vessel won't take up significantly different space than one mounted on an Imperial Navy vessel.
I don't have references to relative population, but assume the Third Imperium is substantially more populated than the K'Kree. But what has technological advantage and industrial superiority done for the Third Imperium against the Zhodani - losing ground each Frontier War. The Imperium suffers under a key weakness - the need to enforce its rule over its territory.
Massing its entire force against the K'Kree would invite incursions by the Solomani and Aslan, as well as embolden separatist movements within the Imperium. Fleets are maintained in all sectors (including those fuly within the boundaries of the Imperium) to show the flag and remind member states of the power of the Central Government. And there is a history of admirals given substantial fleets turning on the central government when the conflict is over (Admiral Plankwell and the other Emperors of the Flag). The Imperium just cannot concentrate its military might. It also can't impose greater taxes or demands on member worlds to suppport a war effort without needing local fleets to ensure compliance. The more the Emperor/nobility imposes their will on member worlds the more local military might is needed to back it up.
The K'Kree, on the other hoof, are organized, patriotic, and orderly. Fleets are not needed to enforce the law over their territory as much as the Imperium needs them. If you go to war against them, their response will be slow and cautious at first but you will find youself in a war against the entire empire of the Two Thousand Worlds - not just one reinforced sector fleet. Their economy can shift to a war footing more effectively than the Imperium can.
And while it is more expensive per soldier for the K'Kree to transport ground forces, this is more a factor influencing overall strategy and tactics than ability to invade. Viewing citizens of the Third Imperium as carnivorous barbarians they may be willing to put more reliance on orbital bombardment and use of drones.
And while what I have described (greater numbers, larger ships, more concentrated firepower) implies waging war like a blunt instrument it is important to remember that the K'Kree are as intelligent as Humans and are (within their conservative structures) capable of adapting their tactics to make better use of their strengths and compensate for their weaknesses. (Think of how Imperial Japan, arguably a very conservative society as well, learned the value of naval aviation before the US Navy did).
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I'd postulate that the K'kree are heavily vested in economies of scale, and if they have the numbers, they could equip their ships with J3s, and utilize the extra space to give them more breathing room.
They would probably herd their enemies into defending a vital watering hole, and try to stampede through the centre, since their larger ships could absorb more damage, even if they might not quite match firepower on a ton for ton basis.
They would probably herd their enemies into defending a vital watering hole, and try to stampede through the centre, since their larger ships could absorb more damage, even if they might not quite match firepower on a ton for ton basis.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
All that need for open space etc. What about using Holograms? At TL12 they become so convincing that they could be used to subsitute for the open spaces...
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
A hologram only works if you don't know its a hologram. They NEED large open spaces. K'kree in Space is one of the oldest running comedy vids in the Imperial (and Solomani and Aslan and especially Vargr) space.
I mentioned more prevalent drones in another thread but it goes without saying drones at K'kree tech level should be as mandatory as open spaces on ships including fighters. K'kree in fighters were mentioned in other editions but drone brains weren't common game mechanic then. There should be no K'kree in fighters. I can imagine drone small craft for transports for non-K'kree items and life forms. The Imperium might not do it routinely but they're not K'kree.
By the gods, I'm picturing K'kree as the Separatists in Clone Wars! Noooo!
When you think about it, robots could have been a necessary development for their advancement. Might have made space travel possible without engineering sections looking like the ones in Abrams Star Trek or a high rise building complex's basement (and you all have seen the sci-fis featuring them).
I mentioned more prevalent drones in another thread but it goes without saying drones at K'kree tech level should be as mandatory as open spaces on ships including fighters. K'kree in fighters were mentioned in other editions but drone brains weren't common game mechanic then. There should be no K'kree in fighters. I can imagine drone small craft for transports for non-K'kree items and life forms. The Imperium might not do it routinely but they're not K'kree.
By the gods, I'm picturing K'kree as the Separatists in Clone Wars! Noooo!
When you think about it, robots could have been a necessary development for their advancement. Might have made space travel possible without engineering sections looking like the ones in Abrams Star Trek or a high rise building complex's basement (and you all have seen the sci-fis featuring them).
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I always imagined that if the K'kree and the the Aslan bordered each other, you'd have an existentially genocidal conflict.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
You sort of have that already between the Vargr and the K'Kree who DO border each other - well across the Rift...
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I see the Vargr more as worrying the K'Kree, as compared to Aslan just charging and leaping for the jugular.
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
Trans-rift the race that likely worries the K'kree most is the Hkhar.
Rikki Tikki Traveller
Cosmic Mongoose
There was a bit of discussion up-thread about K'Kree needing huge open spaces and that corresponds to having problems with explosive decompression.
Don't forget that at their TL, they could have clear walls between spaces. Transparent Aluminum like Star Trek. I agree with Epicenter that it is more likely about line-of-sight, but that as a herd animal, they don't need all that space per being.
At TL-14 or 15, there are a lot of tricks that could be used to help overcome their fear of confined spaces.
Don't forget that at their TL, they could have clear walls between spaces. Transparent Aluminum like Star Trek. I agree with Epicenter that it is more likely about line-of-sight, but that as a herd animal, they don't need all that space per being.
At TL-14 or 15, there are a lot of tricks that could be used to help overcome their fear of confined spaces.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Or wall to wall LED screens. they may psychologically screen heir naval recruits, much like we screen submariners.
