Is my Augmented Magrail Pistol Monster Idea RAW for 2e?

[Yenaldlooshi]

Let me first walk you through this.
Character would have the following augments:
2 combat arms
2 extra manipulators.
Neural Jack with Expert Gun Combat(slug)3 and Intellect

and this equipment
2 hands-free cuffs; one on each arm

10 Magrail Pistols with High Capacity magazines, mounted as follows:
1 on the weapons mount listed for each combat arm: 2
1 in the grip of each manipulator: 2
2 on each hands free cuff: 4
1 in each hand: 2

2+2+4+2=10 total.
(He could maybe use his intellect program with Gun Combat to autonomously fire the manipulators weapons, if he wanted)

He closes to Melee attack range, rolls a grapple and succeeds. His choice for grapple move is to do full auto with all his weapons into his target. Magrail pistol is 4 Auto: and 3D damage. or 12D damage for full auto. There are 10 of these so the total dice damage would be 120.

So, can I roll 120D damage for this attack rules as written?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I would say no, based on technicalities:

Core'22, p78, Grappling:
• Inflict damage using a pistol or small blade-sized weapon.

You can use a single weapon to inflict damage in a grapple.

Core'22, p78:
DUAL WEAPONS
Under some circumstances, a referee may allow a Traveller to use two weapons at the same time. These have to be weapons that can be reasonably be used in a single hand each, such as two blades, two pistols or a blade and pistol.

As an exception you can use two weapons, not all weapons you can grip...


Each instance of Intellect + Expert software running could presumably control a manipulator, but that would be separate attacks, not part of the Grapple action.

Additional manipulators, arms, or cuffs give you additional mount points for weapons, not additional actions.


Remember that armour would be subtracted from each attack, so if you use a single pistol with Auto 4 to attack it would be 4 × (3D - armour) damage.

 

[Grognardia]

Let me first walk you through this.
Character would have the following augments:
2 combat arms
2 extra manipulators.
Neural Jack with Expert Gun Combat(slug)3 and Intellect

and this equipment
2 hands-free cuffs; one on each arm

10 Magrail Pistols with High Capacity magazines, mounted as follows:
1 on the weapons mount listed for each combat arm: 2
1 in the grip of each manipulator: 2
2 on each hands free cuff: 4
1 in each hand: 2

2+2+4+2=10 total.
(He could maybe use his intellect program with Gun Combat to autonomously fire the manipulators weapons, if he wanted)

He closes to Melee attack range, rolls a grapple and succeeds. His choice for grapple move is to do full auto with all his weapons into his target. Magrail pistol is 4 Auto: and 3D damage. or 12D damage for full auto. There are 10 of these so the total dice damage would be 120.

So, can I roll 120D damage for this attack rules as written?

Sure, but the other guy has 20 guns!

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

I would say no, based on technicalities:


You can use a single weapon to inflict damage in a grapple.


As an exception you can use two weapons, not all weapons you can grip...


Each instance of Intellect + Expert software running could presumably control a manipulator, but that would be separate attacks, not part of the Grapple action.

Additional manipulators, arms, or cuffs give you additional mount points for weapons, not additional actions.


Remember that armour would be subtracted from each attack, so if you use a single pistol with Auto 4 to attack it would be 4 × (3D - armour) damage.

Regarding the Cuffs, per CSC23: "is a wrist-mounted rigid cuff which allows the installation
of weapons or tools for hands-free use. ....... A wearer can have cuffs on both hands,
potentially supporting up to four weapons but rules for multiple weapons attacks apply.

Now, is it the writer's intent with this device that he clearly states can hold 4 weapons, to just say, "yup, you have four weapons but you can only shoot 2 of them"? Because if so, than what do I really need this device for? What becomes is useful purpose?. Also it says it allows the weapons for hand-free USE. Applying the two weapon rule to this device so literally negates the exception that this device seems to state it has.

"rules for multiple weapons attacks apply" true, but seemingly only if you have them on both hands. If I have 2 on one cuff, and then use my hand in that cuff for a 3rd, then I am using only one hand and it might seem that the rules for multiple weapons would not apply since the CSC makes the case that it is only if you have it in two hands.

I agree that CORE says 2 weapons not "2 hands unless you have more hands", but the CSC is directly countering that saying that you can mount 2 to a cuff and still have the hand free, and only mentioning multiple weapons rules if you have 2 cuffs.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Plot twist... all of them have Intelligent Weapon installed, with intellect running Gun Combat. My arms and manipulators can be controlled by these systems via my Neural Jack. I instruct them what targets to attack and let them run all their attacks separately. None of the targets have armor and I and they make all the attack rolls. Noooooow can I roll 120D damage?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Regarding the Cuffs, per CSC23: "is a wrist-mounted rigid cuff which allows the installation
of weapons or tools for hands-free use. ....... A wearer can have cuffs on both hands,
potentially supporting up to four weapons but rules for multiple weapons attacks apply.

Now, is it the writer's intent with this device that he clearly states can hold 4 weapons, to just say, "yup, you have four weapons but you can only shoot 2 of them"?

That is what RAW says, I believe.

Because if so, than what do I really need this device for? What becomes is useful purpose?. Also it says it allows the weapons for hand-free USE. Applying the two weapon rule to this device so literally negates the exception that this device seems to state it has.

You can have several weapons ready and wielded, and still have your hands free.

You can still only take one significant action, but you can use either your hands, cuffed weapon 1, or cuffed weapon 2 without delay or penalty. E.g. you could wield a lock-pick, a handgun, and a blade at the same time, using any one of them per round as circumstances require.


As a house-rule I would allow firing both cuffed weapons together in the same action, as one weapon with a slightly higher Auto trait. I.e. essentially you are spraying more bullets at the same targets.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Plot twist... all of them have Intelligent Weapon installed, with intellect running Gun Combat. My arms and manipulators can be controlled by these systems via my Neural Jack. I instruct them what targets to attack and let them run all their attacks separately. None of the targets have armor and I and they make all the attack rolls. Noooooow can I roll 120D damage?

I would hide behind a technicality again:

CSC'22, p60, Neural Link:
... it allows the computer system access to the Traveller’s nervous system, allowing a connected wafer jack (see page 61) or computer system to grant physical skills in addition to those based on INT or EDU. A Traveller must connect the neural link to a computer system or wafer jack containing appropriate Expert software to use the skill.

It grants the user the skill, it does not allow the Expert system control your limbs. So, no extra actions, just extra skills.


IIRC it was slightly different in CSC'17?

 

[Grognardia]

Yenaldlooshi, let me just say. I would hate to be your GM. Exhausting.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

None of the targets have armor and I and they make all the attack rolls. Noooooow can I roll 120D damage?

Be careful what you wish for as what is PC legal is NPC legal.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Let me first walk you through this.
Character would have the following augments:
2 combat arms
2 extra manipulators.
Neural Jack with Expert Gun Combat(slug)3 and Intellect

and this equipment
2 hands-free cuffs; one on each arm

10 Magrail Pistols with High Capacity magazines, mounted as follows:
1 on the weapons mount listed for each combat arm: 2
1 in the grip of each manipulator: 2
2 on each hands free cuff: 4
1 in each hand: 2

2+2+4+2=10 total.
(He could maybe use his intellect program with Gun Combat to autonomously fire the manipulators weapons, if he wanted)

He closes to Melee attack range, rolls a grapple and succeeds. His choice for grapple move is to do full auto with all his weapons into his target. Magrail pistol is 4 Auto: and 3D damage. or 12D damage for full auto. There are 10 of these so the total dice damage would be 120.

So, can I roll 120D damage for this attack rules as written?

What is the mass of all that? Can you lift it let alone have a steady aim? Can you aim it without falling over by your centre of mass moving?

Who is going to close with such a mass of weapons?

Have fun trying to reload while under attack. Don't forget to add the extra magazines to the weight you are carrying.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I would hide behind a technicality again:

It grants the user the skill, it does not allow the Expert system control your limbs. So, no extra actions, just extra skills.


IIRC it was slightly different in CSC'17?

Robot cuffs. I can make them.

 

[rinku]

This is a cyborg guy, right? Not just an armoured suit with extra arms and built in weapons you can pull out of storage and put on for combat?

So... they're pretty much illegal on most planets and instantly identifiable as a threat on the low law level ones where everyone carries.

Problem solves itself.

 

[Gonzag]

I, for one, treat any of the shennanigans you did as the vehicules and ship weapons rules do. The quad pulse laser turret doesn't give you 4 attack, it gives you +3 damage by damage dice. Same with the twin-linked autocannons and such. So I don't get why shooting with your hands and robot parts to shoot 12 pistols would work differently than a litteral machine that has 12 vrf machineguns pointed at the same target.

The Field Catalogue talk about doing basically what you do, with his passage on multimount weapons, saying auto capable weapon mounted as a multimount organ-gun like contraption increase the base gun's auto score by +1 for each additionnal weapon mounted.

One could say if you don't do one of these, the multi attack penalty should be cumulative, so -2 to hit per weapon attack past the first, which would be concordant with other rules about doing multiple things at the same time.

Ultimately though you do you in your own game. Having 10 pistols isn't that much gamebreaking when you can have 10 flying laser pistols following you and shooting your targets.

 

[rinku]

Totally.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Yenaldlooshi, let me just say. I would hate to be your GM. Exhausting.

Come to think of it, a lot of my GM's seem to need therapy after we start playing for some reason...

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

I, for one, treat any of the shennanigans you did as the vehicules and ship weapons rules do. The quad pulse laser turret doesn't give you 4 attack, it gives you +3 damage by damage dice. Same with the twin-linked autocannons and such. So I don't get why shooting with your hands and robot parts to shoot 12 pistols would work differently than a litteral machine that has 12 vrf machineguns pointed at the same target.

The Field Catalogue talk about doing basically what you do, with his passage on multimount weapons, saying auto capable weapon mounted as a multimount organ-gun like contraption increase the base gun's auto score by +1 for each additionnal weapon mounted.

One could say if you don't do one of these, the multi attack penalty should be cumulative, so -2 to hit per weapon attack past the first, which would be concordant with other rules about doing multiple things at the same time.

Ultimately though you do you in your own game. Having 10 pistols isn't that much gamebreaking when you can have 10 flying laser pistols following you and shooting your targets.

If you do go with the + to Damage instead of separate rolls, don't you run the risk of the attacker getting the ability to overwhelm armor in a way they might not be able to had you allowed all separate attack rolls that each had to have their damage reduced by armor?
Example, target has protection of +20: assuming I can only roll base damage of no higher than 18 and that I can't get an effect greater than 2, I will never penetrate that armor with one magrail pistol, ten MRP's or a thousand MRP's.

But if I do your extra weapons = plus to the attack or damage, now I have a sort of defacto AP quality to my weapon that I would not have had otherwise. What think you this?

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

What is the mass of all that? Can you lift it let alone have a steady aim? Can you aim it without falling over by your centre of mass moving?

Who is going to close with such a mass of weapons?

Have fun trying to reload while under attack. Don't forget to add the extra magazines to the weight you are carrying.

the combat arms can have a STR of 18 each arm.
manipulators can have STR of 9 each.
soo... yes. not a problem. These are high tech pistols that only weigh 1 kilo loaded.

Reload?: see Hi-Cap Mags on CSC175. fastest way to reload is to not reload. Save reloading for after combat but before weapons detail and rack time.

Breakdown of this example: Magrail normal mag=20 rnds. so 40 if HiCap. Auto rating is 4 so times 3 = 12 rounds per full auto burst. So 3 full auto bursts like this before having to reload. 120D damage per full auto out of all barrels... hmm.... that's 360D damage before I am down to only 4 rounds in each mag... maybe I wont blast all my ammo on every target except those cases where you want to make sure absolutely, positively, that the thing is dead.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

This is a cyborg guy, right? Not just an armoured suit with extra arms and built in weapons you can pull out of storage and put on for combat?

So... they're pretty much illegal on most planets and instantly identifiable as a threat on the low law level ones where everyone carries.

Problem solves itself.

What problem? I never said there was a problem. You could be working for the planet with the high LL (I am the law!) and/or using invisitech and/or Chameleon, Vislight... or just open carry. After all, you said "everyone carries" so everyone would be instantly identifiable as a threat because they are there.... anyway, this is all using game context that can change world to world and situation to situation.

 

[rinku]

As a point... you're not actually rolling 12D per pistol, You're rolling to hit four times, without the ability to aim, doing 3D plus effect if you hit.

So at no point do you roll 120D. You have to make four attack rolls for each gun, at a -2 for dual use, unless you've handed over the firing to a computer (in which case your own DEX and skill is not in use). And 12 rounds of ammo expended per gun per round.

I mean, don't get me wrong... moar dakka has its place. But I'm fairly sure you'll get the job done better with simpler solutions. Like a Laser Rifle, or even just a half a dozen goons with Shotguns...

 

[rinku]

I would also point out that what we say doesn't matter. If you're the Referee, what you decide is workable, is.

If you're not the Referee, whatever they decide is workable is.