Is Fighters firing first so bad?
- Thread starter CodeofArms
- Start date
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
That all depends on if the Vree can survive the fighter onslaught, which is what prompted this game. Personally I don't think the game will be as EA-favored as some might think but I guess we'll see. I think we were planning on 5pt. battle...
Early era (5 Battle pts 1 raid, 1skirmish, 2 Patrol ) is that right
5 Avengers
5 Sags
10 Hermes
50 fury flights out by rnd 2
40 then 10 missles per turn.
That is super scary or just 10 Avengers, 80 flights.
Just had a thought,crippled Hermes could ram as well. Lucky it's way to many flights to paint.
5 Avengers
5 Sags
10 Hermes
50 fury flights out by rnd 2
40 then 10 missles per turn.
That is super scary or just 10 Avengers, 80 flights.
Just had a thought,crippled Hermes could ram as well. Lucky it's way to many flights to paint.
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
What could the Vree player field?
Xaak Command Saucer
Xill x 4
Xixx Torp Saucer x 4
18 Tyzmms, 2 Vaarls?
Don't know the first thing about Vree (or if my math is even correct in the above) - maybe there are better combos out there. I wasn't planning to run a maxed out list like Target's. Last time I used this:
1 Poseidon
1 Marathon
1 Apollo
2 Chronos
It worked out well and was fun to use. I may use the same thing in our EA vs. Vree game. Any realistic suggestions?
Xaak Command Saucer
Xill x 4
Xixx Torp Saucer x 4
18 Tyzmms, 2 Vaarls?
Don't know the first thing about Vree (or if my math is even correct in the above) - maybe there are better combos out there. I wasn't planning to run a maxed out list like Target's. Last time I used this:
1 Poseidon
1 Marathon
1 Apollo
2 Chronos
It worked out well and was fun to use. I may use the same thing in our EA vs. Vree game. Any realistic suggestions?
Prelude -
I would NEVER throw a fight. =)
Epam
"Where I do disagree is that I fall on the side of fighters firing first- I think it is appropriate that a fighter strike can destroy a small ship, if the attacker uses his brain and the defender can be isolated from the rest of his fleet.
Average number of fighters will generally cancel each other out; leaving at most 1-3 fighters on the table. Even 3 thunderbolts aren't going to do much against a patrol ship- and if the patrol is properly covered by other ships; the fighters will die to AF weapons.
I don't think one fleet having problems against fighters is a reason to nerf fighters."
Lets talk about a couple of the assumptions here.
One that anti-fighter can seriously cover another ship. Most anti-fighter is only five inches which barely reaches from one side of a base to the other, so claiming that fighters that get a ship will die to AF weapons is rarely correct.
Second assumption is that fighters cancel each other out. Fighter compliments vary dramatically. The carrier based forces can easily carry 20+ flights and heavy weapon based forces can end up carrying less than half a dozen. Flights also do not necessarily cancel out. If the assault fighter heavy side wins initiative they just have their opponent move first so that they can attack unimpeded. Being in 'support' can help but has proven to be easily bypassed locally.
Ripple
I would NEVER throw a fight. =)
Epam
"Where I do disagree is that I fall on the side of fighters firing first- I think it is appropriate that a fighter strike can destroy a small ship, if the attacker uses his brain and the defender can be isolated from the rest of his fleet.
Average number of fighters will generally cancel each other out; leaving at most 1-3 fighters on the table. Even 3 thunderbolts aren't going to do much against a patrol ship- and if the patrol is properly covered by other ships; the fighters will die to AF weapons.
I don't think one fleet having problems against fighters is a reason to nerf fighters."
Lets talk about a couple of the assumptions here.
One that anti-fighter can seriously cover another ship. Most anti-fighter is only five inches which barely reaches from one side of a base to the other, so claiming that fighters that get a ship will die to AF weapons is rarely correct.
Second assumption is that fighters cancel each other out. Fighter compliments vary dramatically. The carrier based forces can easily carry 20+ flights and heavy weapon based forces can end up carrying less than half a dozen. Flights also do not necessarily cancel out. If the assault fighter heavy side wins initiative they just have their opponent move first so that they can attack unimpeded. Being in 'support' can help but has proven to be easily bypassed locally.
Ripple
Sure my suggestions smell a lot of cheese but i sur that it proves that firing fighters can be a really bad idea. Most fleets would struggle against the Avenger/Sag/Hermes Heavy fleet. If fighters fired in wing sized groups then fighters would get some shots off and ships would get some retaliation.prelude_to_war said:
Hey Prelude...how many points were we gonna use? I thought we were doing 5 War...your fleet list above is pretty light. Your even a Chronus short for three War.
Vree at five War...
1 War - Xaak (1 Battle) Xill (1 Raid) Xixx (1 Skirmish) Vaarl & 3 Tzymm (2 Partrol)
...repeat as needed is the standard layout under Arm. I think. For myself I think the Xixx may be too fragile in that scenario against fighters/long range attacks. Hull 4/damage 18 does not take much to kill in the SAP/DD/Beam department. Somewhere between 3 (6ish hits w/ a crit) and 4 (8ish hits with a crit) AD will likely do it in a shot. I would likely squadron the Xixx up to try an quarantee one good volley.
The other option would be...
1 War - Xaak (1 Battle) Xill (1 Raid) Vaarka (1 Skirmish) 6 Tzymm (2 Patrol)
Playing a more defensive game here, but more survivable against long range fire due to stealth on the smaller ships and overall more fighter resistant due to number of Tzymms. The Tzymm is a very good fighter with 5 AD, a decent move and a +1 dogfight score, but the hull 4 3+ dodge makes them vulnerable to non-dedicated antifighter weapons.
For any of these fights I will sadly have to rely on some counters to make up my numbers as I just do not own that many saucers. They were intended to suppliment a League fleet not be their own force in my fleet.
For you I guess I would see...(well a Posiedon and...)
1 War - Marathon/Apollo (choose 1 - 1 battle) Chronus (1 Raid) Hermes 3 (3 Patrol)
So at five war its a Posiedon, 4 Marathon/Apollo, 4 Chronus, 12 Hermes (28 flights plus the mix of flights from the battle level, 44 max...in a carrier based fleet I might go for Omegas come to think of it. Given I have no interceptors and both fighters and secondaries are better I am actually not seeing a good arguement for the Marathon here.)
I would have 5 Xaak, 5 Xill, 5 Xixx, 3 Vaarl, and 21 flights. Your flights are better and might regenerate but I have a substantial horde.
At only 3 WAR though...
posiedon, 2 omega/apollo, 2 chronus, 6 hermes (22 flights+battle choices, 30 max)
3 Xaak, 3 Xill, 3 Xixx, 2 Vaarl, 12 flights
Victory point standards may actually determine this, if purchased flights and 'free' flights both give VPs the Vree are not as bad off as I think. Though I still think the 3 War set up tips in favor of the EA. Under SFoS where purchased flights gave up all their VPs with the first flight lost, well having to buy fighter defense was suicide. If Matt's current ruling stands then they are not so bad...depending on the level and how many flights you get per point. Kotha at six per flight...hmm...bet I am giving up a lot of points.
Ripple
Vree at five War...
1 War - Xaak (1 Battle) Xill (1 Raid) Xixx (1 Skirmish) Vaarl & 3 Tzymm (2 Partrol)
...repeat as needed is the standard layout under Arm. I think. For myself I think the Xixx may be too fragile in that scenario against fighters/long range attacks. Hull 4/damage 18 does not take much to kill in the SAP/DD/Beam department. Somewhere between 3 (6ish hits w/ a crit) and 4 (8ish hits with a crit) AD will likely do it in a shot. I would likely squadron the Xixx up to try an quarantee one good volley.
The other option would be...
1 War - Xaak (1 Battle) Xill (1 Raid) Vaarka (1 Skirmish) 6 Tzymm (2 Patrol)
Playing a more defensive game here, but more survivable against long range fire due to stealth on the smaller ships and overall more fighter resistant due to number of Tzymms. The Tzymm is a very good fighter with 5 AD, a decent move and a +1 dogfight score, but the hull 4 3+ dodge makes them vulnerable to non-dedicated antifighter weapons.
For any of these fights I will sadly have to rely on some counters to make up my numbers as I just do not own that many saucers. They were intended to suppliment a League fleet not be their own force in my fleet.
For you I guess I would see...(well a Posiedon and...)
1 War - Marathon/Apollo (choose 1 - 1 battle) Chronus (1 Raid) Hermes 3 (3 Patrol)
So at five war its a Posiedon, 4 Marathon/Apollo, 4 Chronus, 12 Hermes (28 flights plus the mix of flights from the battle level, 44 max...in a carrier based fleet I might go for Omegas come to think of it. Given I have no interceptors and both fighters and secondaries are better I am actually not seeing a good arguement for the Marathon here.)
I would have 5 Xaak, 5 Xill, 5 Xixx, 3 Vaarl, and 21 flights. Your flights are better and might regenerate but I have a substantial horde.
At only 3 WAR though...
posiedon, 2 omega/apollo, 2 chronus, 6 hermes (22 flights+battle choices, 30 max)
3 Xaak, 3 Xill, 3 Xixx, 2 Vaarl, 12 flights
Victory point standards may actually determine this, if purchased flights and 'free' flights both give VPs the Vree are not as bad off as I think. Though I still think the 3 War set up tips in favor of the EA. Under SFoS where purchased flights gave up all their VPs with the first flight lost, well having to buy fighter defense was suicide. If Matt's current ruling stands then they are not so bad...depending on the level and how many flights you get per point. Kotha at six per flight...hmm...bet I am giving up a lot of points.
Ripple
prelude_to_war
Mongoose
Oh I had assumed 5pt. Battle. Just enough to get a Poseidon plus her escorts. I haven't accounted for War...that game would take significantly longer...I'm up for it if you are though.
Doh!...5 Battle....now I see...
hmmm....would be shorter and easier to schedule. Just slice the Xaak off the top of above lists then...=p
Sorry for the thread hijack...but really looking for 'tests' of fighter heavy vs fighter ligh, fighter heavy vs weak hull/damage fleets. These are the two instances I see as balance issue with the current system.
Target is correct in that its the all or nothing element that causes the swing. In any reasonbly balanced fleet it can matter, but it doesn't unduly matter. Its when you can fire a signifcant portion of you fleet before I can fire at all that it becomes an issue. We have seen the same thing in our testing of the six ship squadron rule. For the front arc to enemy fleets (Vree, Centauri, Missle Earth, Minbari, Brakiri) using a large squadron, possibly the entire fleet, in the first turn or two when you opponent cannot escape you arc, results in the old GW style 'I fire, you can fire if anything you have left' style games.
Ripple
hmmm....would be shorter and easier to schedule. Just slice the Xaak off the top of above lists then...=p
Sorry for the thread hijack...but really looking for 'tests' of fighter heavy vs fighter ligh, fighter heavy vs weak hull/damage fleets. These are the two instances I see as balance issue with the current system.
Target is correct in that its the all or nothing element that causes the swing. In any reasonbly balanced fleet it can matter, but it doesn't unduly matter. Its when you can fire a signifcant portion of you fleet before I can fire at all that it becomes an issue. We have seen the same thing in our testing of the six ship squadron rule. For the front arc to enemy fleets (Vree, Centauri, Missle Earth, Minbari, Brakiri) using a large squadron, possibly the entire fleet, in the first turn or two when you opponent cannot escape you arc, results in the old GW style 'I fire, you can fire if anything you have left' style games.
Ripple
CodeofArms
Mongoose
Ahmen.
CodeofArms said:
The other thing I keep coming back to is the amount of luck in this game. A perfect fleet can get annihilated by lucky die rolls. Because of the dice, fortunes can turn in this game unlike any other I know. This is not the game for egos, play for fun because "on any given Sunday...." Boom.
We all want the game to be perfectly balanced, but even if every ship were identical, you'd see some seriously one sided games just because of the crit table. Still, I guess, it's good to balance it as best as we can.
Luck only generally effects you if you a small amount of die rolls eg Katoc 1AD beam weapons and such. If you out there with a horde of furies such as EA early years 5 Avenger fleet, it possible to be rolling 80 Twin link dice in a round. Most people can't roll that bad, even me. This fleet is not impossible to beat, a extremely heavy e-mine might be able to beat it, drakh would also have a good chance.
The e-mine fleet would beat if you release your fighters early but if release them after you close the range ( you can't intentionaly hit your own ships) or spread the avengers out a little drop 1 fighter at a time. Will you waste your e-mine trying to kill 1 fighter then slow load. The Gkarith e-mine is only range 20 so isn't so hard to avoid.
Still think the Drakh will probably get criticaled out even with geg.
Suppose Minbari could go in with 2 Morshins & Teshlan, fleet carrier might give them the edge. This fleet would also give people a lot of trouble.
All hypothetical at the moment.
The e-mine fleet would beat if you release your fighters early but if release them after you close the range ( you can't intentionaly hit your own ships) or spread the avengers out a little drop 1 fighter at a time. Will you waste your e-mine trying to kill 1 fighter then slow load. The Gkarith e-mine is only range 20 so isn't so hard to avoid.
Still think the Drakh will probably get criticaled out even with geg.
Suppose Minbari could go in with 2 Morshins & Teshlan, fleet carrier might give them the edge. This fleet would also give people a lot of trouble.
All hypothetical at the moment.
CodeofArms
Mongoose
I agree with game balance. I recently fielded a Minbari fleet vs. A Drazi fleet at 5pt Battle.
Its the most spectacular loss my dragons have ever endured, due in part to some incredible rolling by my opponent regardless of my tactics; but thats the way the penny drops sometimes.
Getting back to fighters I understand that the Vree suffer greatly when it comes to facing huge swarms; but in my experience this is seemingly the exception to the rule. To say that hull four ships don't fair well against anything, including fighters, is somewhat of a dead statement; Hull four is the weakest warship hull in the game and i'd expect them to pop quite easily regardless of what the specialty may be. Its going to be interesting to see what the league is going to look like once the Pak and Gaim enter the fray. As i recall the Pak have some form of plasma net around their ships which destroys fighters and it will be intresting to see what new fighters each will bring the league.
Of note; I've been on the reciving end of a super-swarm (look at my original post) and compensated accordingly; even at times having to rely on sheer luck to get the nimble beggers... in some games its taken the combined firepower of a pulse omega, several nova's, thethys and hermes etc firing in what would be a spectacular CGI sequence to take down the swarms i've faced and its a tactic some will just have to get use too.
IMO i like the fighter rules, i consider them a threat on the battlefield rather than being dismissable under the SFOS rules. As with any other ship they bring an element of tactic to the game but not be game breaking, which i feel they have acheived at the moment. Furthermore If my opponent takes a fighter heavy fleet well then kudos to him; i'll be taking a fighter bashing fleet accordingly.
Again we are going in circles so unless fighters are removed from the game or given more than 1 damage point and become a 'ship' choice in their own right i don't see or feel any need to change them.
Its the most spectacular loss my dragons have ever endured, due in part to some incredible rolling by my opponent regardless of my tactics; but thats the way the penny drops sometimes.
Getting back to fighters I understand that the Vree suffer greatly when it comes to facing huge swarms; but in my experience this is seemingly the exception to the rule. To say that hull four ships don't fair well against anything, including fighters, is somewhat of a dead statement; Hull four is the weakest warship hull in the game and i'd expect them to pop quite easily regardless of what the specialty may be. Its going to be interesting to see what the league is going to look like once the Pak and Gaim enter the fray. As i recall the Pak have some form of plasma net around their ships which destroys fighters and it will be intresting to see what new fighters each will bring the league.
Of note; I've been on the reciving end of a super-swarm (look at my original post) and compensated accordingly; even at times having to rely on sheer luck to get the nimble beggers... in some games its taken the combined firepower of a pulse omega, several nova's, thethys and hermes etc firing in what would be a spectacular CGI sequence to take down the swarms i've faced and its a tactic some will just have to get use too.
IMO i like the fighter rules, i consider them a threat on the battlefield rather than being dismissable under the SFOS rules. As with any other ship they bring an element of tactic to the game but not be game breaking, which i feel they have acheived at the moment. Furthermore If my opponent takes a fighter heavy fleet well then kudos to him; i'll be taking a fighter bashing fleet accordingly.
Again we are going in circles so unless fighters are removed from the game or given more than 1 damage point and become a 'ship' choice in their own right i don't see or feel any need to change them.
The problem is with my 40 furies how are going to hit them. I start out of range, you move , they afterburn in surround you then fire, big ships they won't kill outright most of the time but you will be a mess with criticals. Then you get to fire and then stiil also have their avengers to fire, by themselves they are weak together they can still put out a lot of firepower. To bad if you are a small ship because you are toast. Remember im potienally firing a 80AD twinlink weapon at your fleet. This only a 5 pt raid super swarm. Mimbari super swarm is 17 nials, 2 flyers ( Teshlan has a flight) thats a 57 AD AP weapon, equally as nasty or they take the scout and get a reroll on a ship. ( Don't know if scouts effect fighters as we play 1 reroll for being lit up not every ship gets one).
Normal fleets can't counter this if fighters fire first. The only option is firing in groups in the same phase as ships. Moving in a different phase is fine. Even then they should move in groups i move my 3 furies then you move 4 sentri's and so on. Gets a bit more tactical.
Normal fleets can't counter this if fighters fire first. The only option is firing in groups in the same phase as ships. Moving in a different phase is fine. Even then they should move in groups i move my 3 furies then you move 4 sentri's and so on. Gets a bit more tactical.
CodeofArms -
You say kudos to someone taking a fighter heavy fleet, you'll be taking a fighter bashing one. How do you know what your opponent is taking before you decide what your taking? I don't think I would have much trouble either devising a strategy if I knew ahead of time what my opponent is taking. But that is the issue I have with stealth as well. If I know I am facing stealth I take extra flights and a scouts, something I do not necesarrily take all the time.
Ripple
You say kudos to someone taking a fighter heavy fleet, you'll be taking a fighter bashing one. How do you know what your opponent is taking before you decide what your taking? I don't think I would have much trouble either devising a strategy if I knew ahead of time what my opponent is taking. But that is the issue I have with stealth as well. If I know I am facing stealth I take extra flights and a scouts, something I do not necesarrily take all the time.
Ripple
Goldritter
Mongoose
The biggest weakness of a fighter heavy Fleet is, that if you can kill the "ships" you´ve won.
Fighters don´t count as ships. And all missions (exept some very few) have the rule, if all ships are destroyed you loose.
I don´t know if you think about these weakness too.
So for example the Vree can try to ignore the fighters which can´t be killed on range with their AF weaponery and than kill the ships.
Fighters don´t count as ships. And all missions (exept some very few) have the rule, if all ships are destroyed you loose.
I don´t know if you think about these weakness too.
So for example the Vree can try to ignore the fighters which can´t be killed on range with their AF weaponery and than kill the ships.
That was what we tried here to start with. It hasn't worked out against EA but might work against some other races. My one try vs Minbari I just could not get stealth to go my way so not sure that was a good test.
I think a lot will depend on terrain as far as going for ships is concerned. Most carriers seem to jump into the nearest asteriod field they can find and all stop so you have to go in after them. Then of course they step out, so you end up having to split the fleet to cover...anyway it seems a good way to keep at least one ship on the table. EA seems to park on Hermes in a hole like that and use the rest to fight. Not so hard hiding one ship in a fleet from retaliation if there is much terrain.
But like I said I want to be proved wrong, just has not happened that way yet in my games running Drazi and Vree vs fighter heavy stacks. The Brakiri and Raiders seem to do fine and I have not yet tested Abbai (but I have cursed Bimiths so maybe not such a good person to do that test).
I know league can be taken as a mixed fleet but it would be nice if they worked fairly well individually as well. This particular mechanic makes it tougher because you need ships with all round firepower (with some staying power) or good dogfighters to handle the enemy flights. Drazi and Vree just do not have that combination, though depending on how the VP for fighters debate shakes out it might be less an issue than under SFoS calculations.
Ripple
I think a lot will depend on terrain as far as going for ships is concerned. Most carriers seem to jump into the nearest asteriod field they can find and all stop so you have to go in after them. Then of course they step out, so you end up having to split the fleet to cover...anyway it seems a good way to keep at least one ship on the table. EA seems to park on Hermes in a hole like that and use the rest to fight. Not so hard hiding one ship in a fleet from retaliation if there is much terrain.
But like I said I want to be proved wrong, just has not happened that way yet in my games running Drazi and Vree vs fighter heavy stacks. The Brakiri and Raiders seem to do fine and I have not yet tested Abbai (but I have cursed Bimiths so maybe not such a good person to do that test).
I know league can be taken as a mixed fleet but it would be nice if they worked fairly well individually as well. This particular mechanic makes it tougher because you need ships with all round firepower (with some staying power) or good dogfighters to handle the enemy flights. Drazi and Vree just do not have that combination, though depending on how the VP for fighters debate shakes out it might be less an issue than under SFoS calculations.
Ripple
CodeofArms
Mongoose
Generally I'll ask which race my oponent will be playing. If this is not possible (such as going to tournaments) i'll always field a nice number of anti-fighter devoted vessles as my Init sinks AF Missile Hermes as the EA, Scout Saucers as league, take at least one lot of wide-mines as the Narn and i like the Dag'Kar enough to warrant at least one in the fleet, Use the split points rules to take raziks as the Centauri, use an Ashinata as the minbari etc etc. When i get on the field and see that my opponent has a b**ch load of fighters i'll just have my flights supporting my vessles as they go. Drakh GEG comes on its own. Adaptive armour and self repair do their stuff and anything beyond 1 inch still obeys stealth (so t-bolts need to be close!). Its just a matter of common sense really!
Unless you have somehow found a way to stack 40 bases of starfuries on one another so that all of them are within 2 inches of the target; on all axis, i don't really have any beef about this tactic; maybe with counters I can understand, but i use models and each base is at least 1inch across so naturally the swarm tactic will trip over itself. The most I get is about 10-12 round a ship excluding any that cant get through because of accompaning flights...thats dangerously into AF territory, seeing as the fleets based around them and, according to the 'I afterburn up to you' post your fighters are not in regenerative territory and surrounded by your opponents vessles. Anything you dogfight is a wasted cap-vessel shot. If you are really devoted to producing this crazy balancing act just to try gimpoid a victory then my hat goes off to you; if you fail...well hard lines, if you don't well done your tactics have prevailed.
If you do this haven't you just wasted the entire purpose of the fleet? With emines i'll hit the fighters and the avenger and nible you to death even with slowloading; i'll just stagger the tubes which are firing, or just concentrate on the Avengers so nothing else is going to popout. Even if the carriers jump in, thats like 3 turns before the fighters are any real threat and by then you've laid a good deal of firepower on the actual attack fleet (which will no doubt be quite pitiful due to the focus on carriers). Once the carriers have come through your not exactly going to be terrified of them plopping out fighters as an assault force.
Fair enough some of the races will struggle but i'm rather confused that because the fighter tactic might be decent enough to use in a game or two that alot of people are screaming the end of the game. I've played in one or two small tournaments at my local gaming hall and never seen anyone with a fighter heavy fleet get very far. Yes i admit i have lost to a five Poseidon fleet before but honestly that was due to my ignorance and trying to focus on the carriers rather than the fighters.
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