Is anything rotten in the state of Zingara?

[Bregales]

Sorry, thought I'd add a last couple points:

I mentioned that only nobles could afford quality rapiers, but nobles also outfitted their guards/fighters with rapiers. Custom didn't allow a noble to fight with anyone below his social class, so he'd either hire a veteran soldier to fight for him, or have one of his bully-boys fight the socially inferior instigator.

As for the earlier point about constant civil wars in Zingara: note that in Spain & Italy in a 70 year period from about 1520 there were 20 thousand killings in fields from single combat!!! So that would certainly support your notions of Zingara's constant fighting amongst it's citizens.

Back to the bullyboys: these guys would walk around the city, knocking their rapier pommels against their bucklers (which were strapped to their belts) thus the term "swashbuckler" - they'd swash their weapons making a racket as a way to note that they were looking for a fight if anyone was interested. Perfect for Romeo and Juliet's families, right? Now, in single duels (mixing periods of history here): you could fight single rapier, rapier & daggar (the main-gauche was only around for about 20 years before it fell out of use, but it's a real cool weapon even if it's blade-catcher was hardly ever if ever applied to break the enemy's foible), or rapier & buckler (most bucklers were small metal sheilds just covering the forearm, but some shields were 6' in diameter made of cured leather with a concave curve to the shield). Rapiers were also perfect for improvising with other things, like chairs, your cloak, a wineskin.

 

[Bregales]

I can't imagine Conan fighting with such a blade.

Lastly, I totally agree with this. I'd rather leave the game to something like an arming sword. Part of the reason rapiers came about was that the technology kept improving, they figured out how to make better swords, part was the changing face of Europe as the middle class was growing and knights died off, and part was gunpowder's impact. A soldier or conquistador might wear armor with his rapier, but not the civilians who made up much of the populace employing these things: it was a status symbol to have a beautiful blade or matching blade and daggar. But the technology and society which brought about it's advent is millenia later than what goes on in Hyboria, IMO.

But at least I got to write about my favorite blades

 

[The King]

Thanks for your post Bregales. Your comments give much insight of what could be applied to Zingara.
It is true that Zingara is akin to Italian / Spanish Renaissance but I wonder if one can mixt this period and its technology (with the first black powder guns) with the Conan age.
But of course as a DM your world is what you want it to be.

 

[Bregales]

While we think of rapiers as finesse weapons because that's how they're usually choreographed that way in plays and movies (I know because that's what I'm doing each week ), the truth is that in the early days of the rapier the fighting was very harsh, where the defender would hack his rapier into the attacker's blade instead of doing a 5 parry riposte thrust to shoulder, for example. These guys were savage as the defenses were basically attacking into the path of the attacker's blade, despite what ARMA or SCA enthusiasts say.

So, rapiers were very strong weapons, and they kept their edge better than any sword before them. But they come from a different age, which is why I don't use them in my Conan game. Hope this helps.

 

[The King]

Would you consider that a rapier's blade is stronger than, say, a broadsword's?
Moreover a rapier enables you to thrust only, while most other swords let you swing as well, crushing the opponent bones with sheer power (that's what Conan does to his foes).

 

[VincentDarlage]

One of the books collecting the Solomon Kane stories had a nice intro about the rapier, pointing out its strength and that it was a different weapon than is seen today - and was used for slicing and cutting, not thrusting.

 

[Bregales]

Would you consider that a rapier's blade is stronger than, say, a broadsword's?
Moreover a rapier enables you to thrust only, while most other swords let you swing as well, crushing the opponent bones with sheer power (that's what Conan does to his foes).

One of the books collecting the Solomon Kane stories had a nice intro about the rapier, pointing out its strength and that it was a different weapon than is seen today - and was used for slicing and cutting, not thrusting.

Exactly. Rapiers did not thrust until around 1585, before then they were solely cutting weapons, they were too long & blade-heavy to thrust until about the time of transition rapiers. The stats given for DnD are incorrect, they are game conversion stats for a SMALLSWORD, the descendent of the rapier (think foil in olympic competitions, or "Dangerous Liasons"). Now then, about your question of rapier vs. broadsword: that didn't usually happen, because broadswords (in theatrical terms, any blade of game stats longsword to bastard sword) were military weapons and most kingdoms prohibited their use in any non-warfare circle, from the time of history where the rapier came into being. A rapier by contrast was a civilian weapon used also by military. Could a rapier be used in passive defence against a broadsword, probably not. But if both swordsmen were proficient with their respective weapons, then the rapier-duelist would certainly win.

As a movie for comparison, I'd heartily recommend the climactic fight scene between Tim Roth & Liam Neeson (choreographed by the master William Hobbs) in "Rob Roy" which I think came out in 1995. While I can't stand a lot of that movie, the fighting is fantastic and very realistic of rapier vs. claymore.

 

[René]

Germany held on to rapiers after most others went to the smallsword (weapon of "Dangerous Liasons") even still practising dueling to earn dueling scars on the cheeks into the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

Just for completeness: These duels are still fought by a lot of German and Austrian student fraternities, although in a strictly regulated manner and with protective leather sheets above vital arteries and special glasses. Today it's less about violated honor, but about proving to be a worthy member of the specific fraternity ("He is ready to get some nasty scars and to let his blood flow for our community, so he is a worthy member.")
Another difference is the choice of weapons: slashing blades instead of thrusting ones.

A German website: http://www.hoch-bitte.de/
Mark Twain gives a description of fraternity duels in his "A Tramp Abroad".

Sorry, not CONAN-relevant at all.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Here's an odd thought- could the Arming Sword used in Conan actually be more similiar 'earlier' Rapier rather than the Celtic style Longsword used by D&D that I once thought it was based on? If so, it would fit handily in the idea of Zingara being the fictional ancestor of more modern dueling methods.

 

[Sutek]

I'm thinking of it as a longer version of a gladius, more like a celtic leaf sword on size and balance. Earlier rapiers were more like main-gauche and before that long daggers. At least in Earth history anyway...

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Has anyone adapted the Smallsword to Conan stats yet? I've been playing around with the idea myself....

 

[Etepete]

In my haphazard version of Zingara, as the campaign runs, I'm using different noble alliances and powerhouses to generate alot of the plot. The characters are caught up in this web of intrigue and conflicting interests.
Now, my imagination not being limitless and my knowledge of both real-world and Hyborian feudal haute-politique being even more limited I'd be really grateful for any suggestions as to political interests, conspiracies and interest groups. Even names of noble families would be brilliant, as my Zingara is running a bit too spanish....

Any suggestions?

 

[Maximo]

Some random ideas from my Zingaran Civil War campaign. Perhaps they are not exactly what you asked for, but I hope this helps:

-At least one faction should be backed by Argossean fundings (I think The King already suggested this). Members of such faction could either be unwitting pawns or greedy turncoats who don't care about selling their country as long as they get a share of the booty.
Other countries could secretly support some of the factions in order to put one of their muppets in the throne of Zingara. This could include a religious side to the conflict if Stygians, for example, were behind the plot. In this example, if such a faction won the war, the worship of Set would be allowed in Zingara.

-In my own campaign, one of the brothers of one noble (who happens to be a PC) arranged the death of their elder brother during an ambush by a rival faction so he would be able to become heir to the title -not to mention that both wanted to marry the same lady and her father would only accept the one who inherited the title.
Of course, once his faction gets a sizable territory, most likely due to Player Characters heroics, he plans to dispatch his PC brother. There's no point in devising a conspiration if players don't learn of its evil... when it is hard to stop it.
Use of this idea will make clear to PCs that in this war you should trust no one.

-Most houses will place their interests -i.e. gold & lands- before anything else. This implies that PCs should find at least once in such a campaign betrayed by some (or all at once!) of the houses which are (supposedly) on their side.
This should happen during a battle for dramatic effect. Players should be among the very few to survive the treachery, which adds a sense of urgency if they have to warn the remainder of their forces before it is too late.

-Related to the above points, you should devise some house which tries to keep their honor as they expand their territories. This should not be obvious in order to make things interesting. In fact, PCs should find skills like Sense Motive or Diplomacy useful in order to gain loyal allies.

-In my campaign, most nobles are motivated by greed, envy and even sheer hatred among themselves. Perhaps a few of them will have other goals -like unifying Zingara and using it as a powerbase to conquer other lands.
This adds to the futility of this war, as most peasants and militiamen will die for the selfish ambitions of their lord and those close enough to him to profit.

-Since Vincent put in the Road of Kings sourcebook that Zingara went from a population of 20 million at its prime to a population of 9 million as war raged on, I have assumed for my campaign that this time the most greedy noble factions will resort to tougher weapons as war goes on, that is, in the beggining they will use mercenaries & militia in skirmishes against their neighbours but one year later they will be burning all villages they conquer and three years later they will be willing to pact with a sorcerer who sends a plague into enemy territory. They will think that better a dead country than a country controlled by their rivals.

This helps to show one theme that I'm putting into the campaign: the struggle between civilization & barbarism. My players are in the civilized side, so their fight is doomed, but I guess it's more epic this way.

-The nobles should not be the only corrupt people in the country, and each village can house some greedy peasants who work for them as spies or enforcers in exchange for a few extra silvers. Most peasants, however, will have no interest in this war other than serve their side -just to avoid being hanged by desertion- and survive. They know the new king will abuse them as much as any of previous kings, so they don't care much about politics.
Some people, like my players, can try to gain the people for their cause, which makes for a quite difficult goal as people have heard all kind of promises which turned out to be false. However, fighting side to side with peasants against a noble who mistreats them is other thing...

-As for character names perhaps you could try Visigoth-like names like Alarico, Amalrico or Suintila. I don't know if the names of Visigoths are translated into English like this, so you could have to change their ending to an -o or -a if needed.
House names are a bit trickier. For the moment, I'm trying to wait until Mongoose publishes the sourcebook, and in the meantime I refer to the houses by the name of their current lord, for example, the house of Zapayo. I haven't been able to continue the campaign for a while, but when I do, I'll try to find suitable names for them, in the line of Kordava, which sounds non-spanish like enough for me.

If not for my current work schedule, which is quite stressing, I would go on...

Be seeing you,

Maximo

PS:By the way, I think Visigoth history could be a good source of ideas for any gamemaster interested in portraying weird intrigues full of backstabbing among nobles.

 

[Etepete]

Some random ideas from my Zingaran Civil War campaign. Perhaps they are not exactly what you asked for, but I hope this helps:

Very grateful. This is excactly what I was hoping for, and ties in very well with what I've managed so far. Very researched btw

-At least one faction should be backed by Argossean fundings... ...Other countries could secretly support some of the factions in order to put one of their muppets in the throne of Zingara. This could include a religious side to the conflict if Stygians...

This is very close to my own main outline of the plot, actually. I envision transnational (and rather provisional) alliances, where for instance a Zingaran lord might ally himself with an argossean Merchant House for both benefits (compare, for instance, House Pompilius) and have errand boys in Shem or even Kush, tied to the great naval routes. The evil, prostygian faction is an obvious (too obvious?) adversary too the player, and ties in with my largerscope, occult plots.
Actually, the pc:s current position and basis for adventure is as errandboys for these leagues across the argossean/zingaran border.

-Most houses will place their interests -i.e. gold & lands- before anything else......

-Related to the above points, you should devise some house which tries to keep their honor ...

Very neat, and a must use. Am particularily fond of parties that give irrefutable evidence of their honor and good charachter, only to put the knife in the back of the pc:s towards the dramatic climax.

This adds to the futility of this war, as most peasants and militiamen will die for the selfish ambitions of their lord and those close enough to him to profit.

Isn't that a bit too close to real life for Sword and Sorcery? Still, it's also definitely Conan, weak degenerate civilized fools...

They will think that better a dead country than a country controlled by their rivals.

I think at once of the thirty yrs war, which was continued mainly because all parties wanted to finish it while _they_ had the upper hand, but once they did, they wanted that extra inch of leverage until the fortune of war swung around again. Thucydides, I believe, makes some similar observation about the Peloponnesian War. Still, very sombre, very Conan.

-As for character names perhaps you could try Visigoth-like names like Alarico, Amalrico or Suintila. I don't know if the names of Visigoths are translated into English like this, so you could have to change their ending to an -o or -a if needed.
House names are a bit trickier. For the moment, I'm trying to wait until Mongoose publishes the sourcebook, and in the meantime I refer to the houses by the name of their current lord, for example, the house of Zapayo. I haven't been able to continue the campaign for a while, but when I do, I'll try to find suitable names for them, in the line of Kordava, which sounds non-spanish like enough for me.

Mhm.... and maybe some basque or moorish names in their castilian rendering might do as well. I'll certainly look into Visigoths.

Thanks, again, for the many good suggestions

 

[Bregales]

For those interested, I just found this book while searching for something else at Amazon.com: Medieval Sword & Shield: The Combat System of Royal Armouries MS I.33 (Paperback).

Book is a dedication on a 13th century manual on fighting with the historical arming sword & buckler, with photos illustrating the fighting style. This is the earliest known manual on fighting techniques in Western martial arts. FYI, hope it can be of help.

 

[The King]

For Middle Age sword fights I always remember Excalibur (the movie). Though I don't like the film because it looses much of the British myth (IMO) I was impressed by the tough clash of steel on body (or armors / shields).

In this effect, both Conan movies don't reflect the violence found in the stories and described hy Howard. It seems well choregraphed fights in comparison.

 

[Bregales]

For Middle Age sword fights I always remember Excalibur (the movie). Though I don't like the film because it looses much of the British myth (IMO) I was impressed by the tough clash of steel on body (or armors / shields).

In this effect, both Conan movies don't reflect the violence found in the stories and described hy Howard. It seems well choregraphed fights in comparison.

I totally agree with you. The (first) movie was great given the violence of the swordfighting, the moviemakers actually created a new system of squibs to allow the actors to actually cut the stuntmen, the folds of f/x skin would rupture and squib blood would gush out. It was revolutionary. But the whole bit of kendo style fighting was totally alien to the concept of a wild barbarian of the north, fighting with savage fury against his civilized, formalized counterparts. Too many moulinet twirls (spinning the sword in loops like a baton).

I also agree with you about "Excalibur" - I loved the gothic plate armor and the fierce fighting, but hated the way they clumped stories together and amalgamated/homogenized the stories. I've studied the Arthurian stories since I was about 8 years old and dropped out of pursuing an advanced degree in studies to pursue acting instead, so I'd like to think I know a lot about the stories....(but I'm rambling now). Enjoyed the cast though...what a cast.

You know, an older movie with a brutal (for the period) climactic sword fight is the movie "The Vikings" made by Kirk Douglas and starring Douglas and Tony Curtis. When those two guys fight it out atop the castle battlements I found their aggressions believable to more "stylized" movie fights (like "Highlander"). You believe those guys are trying to kill each other instead of attacking the other guy's sword.

 

[The King]

I still have to see this movie.
BTW I always figured until now that a rapier looked more like those we see in Zorro or The Pirncess Bride. That is why I didn't find it suitable for parade and only for thrusting attacks.

 

[Bregales]

I still have to see this movie.
BTW I always figured until now that a rapier looked more like those we see in Zorro or The Pirncess Bride. That is why I didn't find it suitable for parade and only for thrusting attacks.

Well, the movie is kinda cheesy, and maybe a little dated, but it was traumatic when it first came out. Heroes didn't get maimed and disfigured in movies during that time, so it was a bit different. As for the rapiers, you're right to think of those movies for how rapiers should look. In movies, they almost always use them for slashing as well as making thrusts, and while 'that's not how they really fought in the 1500s or 1600s' it doesn't really matter. Probably the best movies to get a sense of what fighting was like would linclude "The Duelists", "Rob Roy" or the 1970s "Three Musketeers/Four Musketeers." Often all that training went out the window when a fight became a heated or serious affair.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Back to Zingara, considering a Zingarian plot line how about an invasion by land hungry Aquilonia just over the border there? Zingara is open land politically divided against itself and unable to field a large loyal army. Poitain itself was a serious threat to Zingara by itself. Aquilonia united by a strong king- such as Conan himself- and looking for easier targets than the Pictish Wilderness could overwhelm it. PCs could be on either side or simply caught in the middle while in the midst of their own affairs.