Intestinal Fortitude

Ranzadule

Mongoose
One thing that has always bugged me about D&D is the Fear save. Having it based on your will save as modified by Wisdom bonus is fine on the surface, but think aobut what it means. Group of D&D characters confronted by a dragon. Dragon roars and the wizard likely saves, as does the cleric. The rogue and fighter are rolling and hoping for a natural 20 to save. That's a problem.

I propose the following feat:

Guts (or Intestinal Fortitude):
This character may use his Fort save in place of his Will save when rolling to save against Fear or fear effects.

Considering many prestige classes in d20 give characters "Immune to Fear" what should be the prereqs for this if any? Iron will? Or should this simply be a class ability for fighter types?
 
I hear what you are saying about the fighter and the rogue turning tail and running, but I think the will save is still appropriate. I think all classes feel the same amount of fear. The will save represents a character's ability to overcome the basic desires (in this case, get the heck out of dodge) and do what needs to be done.

The discipline required to be a mage and a cleric (following your example) lends to a bit of self denial to achieve their goals (hence the higher will save), while the fighter and thief can achieve their goals by a little more giving into their desires (hacking someone apart when angry or stealing something you want), which lends to the lower will save. [Note, these are stereotypes for the sake of demonstrating my point].

I think the will save is fair, but perhaps the Intestinal Fortitude feat could allow a character to use their Con modifier for will save in place of their wisdom modifier. I would allow PCs to take that feat with no pre reqs.
 
I agree with Both of you, on the fact that most of your fear saves and the such deal with either magical or supernatural events,spells,items,etc... Very few beast or the such generate a natural fear... Thus the mage or the Cleric who are trained or study such things would have a better understanding of the origins and would be less likely to fall for such.

I do think that a Feat to allow fighters and Rouges to use there Con instead of there Will would be a good Idea based on the fact that both see some pretty grim and gross stuff. massive battle field with people all cut up and dying. The theif that kills a entire family, or the officer that goes in after a bad homicide...

Either one in real life I would blow chunks.... only after the battle of course!
 
I don't care so much for it with the thief. But heroic fighters don't run while the cleric and Scholar hang tough and fight. I think the only time Conan ever ran for failing a frightful presence test was in "The Thing in the Crypt." :lol:

Also, I want to state again that my problem is only with fear tests, not the other will-based tests.

As for Rogue's, maybe they could get 'round the test if they were hidden, say give them a will save bonus equal to their Hide bonus as long as they remain hidden. It seems to me that a thief could be emboldened knowing that the scary enemy cannot see them. :wink:
 
Ranzadule said:
One thing that has always bugged me about D&D is the Fear save. Having it based on your will save as modified by Wisdom bonus is fine on the surface, but think aobut what it means. Group of D&D characters confronted by a dragon. Dragon roars and the wizard likely saves, as does the cleric. The rogue and fighter are rolling and hoping for a natural 20 to save. That's a problem.

I propose the following feat:

Guts (or Intestinal Fortitude):
This character may use his Fort save in place of his Will save when rolling to save against Fear or fear effects.

Considering many prestige classes in d20 give characters "Immune to Fear" what should be the prereqs for this if any? Iron will? Or should this simply be a class ability for fighter types?
Well, it's a fair idea, but consider the Iron Will feat. I'd at least make that a requisite for your guts idea, because guts is a pretty strong option, albiet only in fear situations. Then again, consider that Barbarians get the fighting madness special ability, whereas civilized men, even the likes of Shevatas, freeze and quake when confronted with such abberations.

No class should be immune to fear. Fear is what drives Conan to frenzy in so many of the stories. The world of Conan is one step removed from Cthulhu: terrors await, and men go mad before them. :twisted:
 
No class should be immune to fear.

Brilliant! What we need is a table for possible reactions to failing. This could be adjusted for class, race and feats.

Possible options:
Run like frightened little girl.
Run like nervous geek chased by bully.
Go berserk and charge

and so on.

Immunity to fear is not really possible unless you are true Samurai or zealot or something like that. It's your reaction to fear that matters and makes the story.
 
Ranzadule said:
No class should be immune to fear.

Brilliant! What we need is a table for possible reactions to failing. This could be adjusted for class, race and feats.

Possible options:
Run like frightened little girl.
Run like nervous geek chased by bully.
Go berserk and charge

and so on.

Immunity to fear is not really possible unless you are true Samurai or zealot or something like that. It's your reaction to fear that matters and makes the story.
Yes, that sounds good. I'd also add for possible options: *freeze, eyes bulging, a pool of warm yellow liquid forming at the character's feat;
*Vomit
*Cough up a lung, literally
*Scream (I'm thinking of Ren Hoek-like screams

Sorry, work's putting me into this mood, and my lunch break's just about over, only 9 hours to go.... It's a good post, and some interesting ideas. I can remember trying to work out things like this with the 1st ed. AD&D barbarian from Dragon magazine #59, & Unearthed Arcana book. Good luck.
 
I want a roll on the chart for "you feel warmth in the seat of your pants and become overtaken by a mysterious ordor".
 
Bregales said:
No class should be immune to fear.

I would agree with this sentiment. Note that the d20 prestige classes that offer "Fear Immunity" state that this is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities for PC classes is inappropriate for Conan.

Also note for Conan that the fear affects makes you 'shaken' if you are over 3 levels. This only gives you a -2 to well, basically everything while you are shaken. This does not require you to run, wet yourself, or freeze while staring at the monster or anything. With this in mind, the characters with more training in demonic or supernatural creatures (scholars) should have a better chance at not being shaken (i.e. higher will saves).
 
Right, scholars should have a better chance, that's why they get Corruption. Scholars expect to be able to interact with whatever abominations they're confronting, so they should only get a fear save when the abomination goes off from the scholar's planned activity. :twisted:

Cripes, I'm back to work now, gotta lay off the boards. Well, maybe.
 
Ranzadule said:
One thing that has always bugged me about D&D is the Fear save. Having it based on your will save as modified by Wisdom bonus is fine on the surface, but think aobut what it means. Group of D&D characters confronted by a dragon. Dragon roars and the wizard likely saves, as does the cleric. The rogue and fighter are rolling and hoping for a natural 20 to save. That's a problem.

That's not a problem, everyone *should* run from the dragon. In the case of the mage and cleric, they are too smart for their own good, and have the ability to stay instead of running, which really isn't very wise ;)
 
I've seen the "Fearless" feat (or some variant thereof) in several d20 publications, including the Black Company and Kalamar. In one rendition, it allows characters to roll two d20 on fear checks, taking the higher result. The other is a bit more powerful, reducing the level of any failed fear check by one (Panicked to Frightened, Frightened to Shaken, Shaken to unaffected). The latter is a lot more likely to keep your fighter from running... whether or not that's prudent, you'll have to decide.

-RH
 
Hyborian Apeman said:
Also note for Conan that the fear affects makes you 'shaken' if you are over 3 levels. This only gives you a -2 to well, basically everything while you are shaken.

My bad team, failing the terror save causes you to be frightened, not shaken. :oops:

In which case, red_herring's suggested feats would both be viable options in my opinion. I still like a feat that allows a character to use their Con modifier for will saves instead of wisdom.
 
Hyborian Apeman and red-herring have nailed it with the Fear effect levels. I don't rally like to see even low level PC's lose control of their characters just because they failed a single die roll.

I like the graduated effects - could someone repeat the skills penalties for the various levels. I'm not particularly interested in the colour text, but I do believe that the Feats such as Iron Will, Fearless, etc. should have a ballsy effect on Fear Saves (Terror of the Unknown in the book, I recall).

Also the innate bonuses that certain races or character classes have as well. A soft, pampered, civillized, city merchant may 'lose it' far quicker than a seasoned Cimmerian warrior. Although certain things or types of ecounters may have a far more devastating effect upon ceartain races or cultures ...(Say 'Spirits' for the Black Kingdoms warriors and suchlike).

My Players have baulked at feinting like an elderly matron, just because they're level 3 and under ...
 
LokiOne said:
I like the graduated effects - could someone repeat the skills penalties for the various levels. I'm not particularly interested in the colour text, but I do believe that the Feats such as Iron Will, Fearless, etc. should have a ballsy effect on Fear Saves (Terror of the Unknown in the book, I recall).

I don't have the rules books in front of me (being at work and all), but I will post the graduated effects if no one beats me to it tonight.
 
LokiOne said:
My Players have baulked at feinting like an elderly matron, just because they're level 3 and under ...

And reasonably so. It's a bit excessive, and some degree of stages of results would at least ameliorate it.

Further, I ran an adventure where the whole party failed the save in two encounters in a row, and had I not allowed a Fate Point to overcome it, they would have all been mauled to death by the beasts. I am loathe to allow Fate Points for anything other than listed, but thought this situation would have been excessive - otherwise, because all of them failed the roll, all of them would have swooned, would have been mauled, and then spent the Fate Point to be left for dead. That would have not worked out as a method for the PCs to deal with the beast and escape, either, all in barely alive states. Note, if they had encountered combat and fallen to the beast, then I would have let that ride (no Fate Points spent except for left for dead), but to have them all "chumped" because of failed fear saves would have been far from heroic Conan fantasy. Consequently, the mechanism shouldn't be that severe, to avoid such results. A staggered results situation would be better, based on the save roll.
 
I will have to re-read up on all of the relevant Feats that should influence Fear/ Terror saves, to see how much they influence things.

I like it when the PC's have the active choice as to whether or not they should still engage a potentially horrific opponent(s). They should also be aware of any particular racial/ cultural superstitions or phobias. Conversely, there may be some types of opponents that incite 'natural' animosity ...IE: Large nasty snakes (Esp. the unnatural/ magical kinds!) for a fanatical Priest of Ibis, etc.

The levels for failing the save could be:

Unnerved: -1 on all general actions, -2 on all combat actions except defensive in nature. May not initiate melee combat or approach closer to enemy unless he/she passes a Will save v's DC 5 + 1/ die of the creatures hit dice or per level in excess of characters level for humans. May still use distance missile weapons, or sorcery.

Shaken : -2 on all general actions, -4 to combat actions. May not willingly engage in combat unless defensive/ protective. Will remain in current cover, or seek cover if in the open, and may not close distance to the foe unless character makes a Will save vs DC 10 + the modifiers above.

Frightened : -4 to all actions of any kind (except movement). May not provoke attacks including use of missiles against foe. May use defensive skills and sorcery. Concerntration check at -2 to cast spells or perform certain tasks (writing a message for example). Must make a Will save v's DC 10 + modifiers as above, to remain at current distance from the foe, or withdraw one full half move action, facing the enemy if desired.

Terrorized : -6 to all actions (Movement unaffected). Must flee to a 'safe' distance, as per Terror of the Unknown effect. May not use missiles, and will make move actions until within defensive cover (A castle, building, thick forest, behind a sealed door, etc). Will flee facing away from the enemy until they pass Will save vs DC 15 + morale modifiers above, etc - or continue flight until foe cannot be seen/heard as in Terror of the Unknown.

Relevant Feats that affect these morale states are: Iron Will and Demon Killer. Has Anyone found any others (Like from AE for example?). How about 'Will of Steel' as an addition ? As per Iron Will, but gives a +4 save bonus to all Will saves.

Those with Iron Will cannot be Unnerved, and with Will of Steel cannot be Shaken. Each positive Will save upgrades the morale state to one level better.

Someone who is affected by any negative morale status, as listed above, may not use the Intimidate skill, until stabilized (normal)

Sorcerors with Corruption Points may add them as a positive modifier into any encounter with a creature that is 'aligned' with them. The morale save does not affect a sorceror interacting with a Demonic entity or creation with which he/she has a current pact with. It may be relevant however, if the pact has been broken ...

Any sugestions or modifications???
 
LokiOne, doesn't the Conan AE state that frightened characters take a -2 to all actions and must flee? I am referring to the beastry chapter in the section that talks about Terror.

If so, there would need to be a reconciliation between the Conan "Frightened" and the d20 "Panicked", "Shaken", "Frightened", "Terrorized" progression. Or are you referring to somewhere else for your rules quotes?
 
Well .. I don't own an Atlantean Edition (yet!) so I wouldn't know ...

I am just presenting a set of ideas for moderation and improvement by Anyone who cares to lob in with any modifications. Most of the posts here are for alternate 'non-official' house rules, that Gm's can pick and choose from. I don't know a single Gm who always plays with The Rules as is ....

Can you therefore please moderate my offerings then Hyborian Apeman? (Or Anyone else care too?),'cos things like AE and other suppliments can take quite a while to 'trickle on down' to here in Oz (Australia), so I'm not actually quoting from anything except my base Conan RPG, and my own hunches.

I'm only a poor part-time worker, and haven't got around to ordering and sending off for AE through the Sons of Cimmeria offer ...

I was trying to sync the Terrorisation to Terror, while creating a few other levels of negative morale states. Maybe just the three levels: Shaken, Frightened and Terrorized (Terror). Constructive suggestions ???

As I said, I don't like to see my starting Conan PC's swooning with every encounter, just because they are L3 or less ... I can understand the need for a Mental Fortitude roll with horrific deities and demons (But that's what 'Demon Killer' feat is for, right?). I'd just like to see some more varied and creative results for failed personal morale.

Were there any Morale Rules mentioned within Free Companies, 'cos I haven't yet read it through from cover to cover ... (Probably for NPC's and followers).

More Feats related to Intestinal Fortitude (Guts) would be nice too ... Has Anyone written any more ???
 
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