Improving physical stats after char gen

[Duroon]

True but that would be an entirely different mechanic. One I am not sure on how to go about.

I don't think the mechanic I put forth is quick and easy. The higher the stat the longer it takes to improve. Similar to the way the rules treat learning new skills. I wouldlove to see a mechanic for improving ones EDU/SOC/INT. While these are somewhat connected they are also not completely similar.

I would imagine EDU might improve as you gain new skill's really. Isn't someone with 20 skills higher educated than someone with 6?

Shouldn't INT have some bearing on how quickly someone could learn new skills? For example, one of my other players failed nearly every survival roll in a 6 term char gen. At the end of 6 terms he wound up with 8 skills at lvl 1. By the rules in the book he could train Medic 1 in 9 weeks. He could then train Medic 2 in an additional 11 weeks. That's a full fledged Doctor in 20 weeks training. What if that character has an INT of 5? Would you want to have a guy working on you after a crash that became a doctor after only 20 weeks training and had less than average intelligence?

One of my other players has suggested that a characters SOC stat might improve simply by living and paying for a higher lifestyle than the one associated with his current SOC rating. Is that completely out of line?

 

[Duroon]

That is what the Athletics skill repersents, a realistic way to improve your raw physical ablities.

Answer me this why would a PC ever upgrade a skill when they could take an characteristic instead? A zero level skill and a higher characteristic is always better.

A skill check for say Athletics (strength) would usually require you to add your strength DM correct? So a person with a -2 DM from strength would need to have an Athletics (strength) skill rating of 3 before he recieved a positive DM to any sort of strength check.

Now is it fair that in order to acquire an Athletics skill you must add together all of your intellectual skills and add a week to that number to improve physically?

Would you require a character to roll an Athletics (strength) check in order to walk in a vacc suit?

 

[Xoph]

Yes it seems like a hole in the system and this is one of the places Traveller shows its 70s origin, but opening a bigger one with Characteristic improvement won't fix it.

Besides a character with -1 Bonus from their INT or EDU has to be more trained then a character with +3 Bonus. So yes! Always choose the smarter doctor

I also think you are looking at Characteristics and Skills the wrong way. Skills are mods on top of Characteristics. Changing basic Characteristics is like changing your DNA to make you better at colouring... it is a bit extreme.

 

[Xoph]

Now is it fair that in order to acquire an Athletics skill you must add together all of your intellectual skills and add a week to that number to improve physically?

Yes! part of having a skill is maintaining that skill, which takes just as much attention no matter what sort of skill it is.

Would you require a character to roll an Athletics (strength) check in order to walk in a vacc suit

The book says that you only need to roll when failing matters. Besides it never says you can't give skill bonuses when you don't roll. Taking a PCs skills into account is just common sense.

 

[far-trader]

Yes it seems like a hole in the system and this is one of the places Traveller shows its 70s origin...

Do you mean by not being able to improve characteristics after creating the character? Because you'd be wrong, it always has had that. Even when the other big game (D&D and maybe even AD&D) didn't (at least I don't recall it having stat improvements except through magic items or potions until later editions). So it was ahead of it's time

 

[Xoph]

No Far-trader... I mean the odd "hole" Duroon point to here:

Shouldn't INT have some bearing on how quickly someone could learn new skills? For example, one of my other players failed nearly every survival roll in a 6 term char gen. At the end of 6 terms he wound up with 8 skills at lvl 1. By the rules in the book he could train Medic 1 in 9 weeks. He could then train Medic 2 in an additional 11 weeks. That's a full fledged Doctor in 20 weeks training. What if that character has an INT of 5? Would you want to have a guy working on you after a crash that became a doctor after only 20 weeks training and had less than average intelligence?

One of my other players has suggested that a characters SOC stat might improve simply by living and paying for a higher lifestyle than the one associated with his current SOC rating. Is that completely out of line?

 

[far-trader]

So the consensus is that Traveller should forget realism as far as physical improvement of a character is concerned.

I don't think I've seen that here at all. It looks to me like several realism suggestions have been made, and one abstract that nicely models realism I think.

Maybe you missed my post just above and before this post I quoted? I address the unrealistic aspects of anyone training a 2 to a 15, especially a 62 year old (barring that the anagathics have kept him physically younger).

 

[far-trader]

No Far-trader... I mean the odd "hole" Duroon point to...

Ah, OK, not sure I see the hole, but it is a disturbing mechanic. Looks like a case of "one rule to ring them all" in some misguided attempt to make things "uniform for uniformity". That's bound to mangle reality. Like a pre-med of marginally better than average Int making full MD in a few weeks, or a well below average Int ever making MD.

 

[Xoph]

I concur... it is odd, but he wouldn't pass the exams with a EDU Bonus of -3 even with a skill of 3.
I would think the examples in the book of what skills mean are meant to be used with an average Stat. The scale of Medic 3 = Doctor only applies for average Int and Edu.

 

[Duroon]

My main point with all this is that a character should be able to improve themselves physically through exercise. Regardless of age. My Grandfather improved himself physically at the age of 65 by exercising. A character with the physical body of a 30 year old should be able to work out and improve himself. I know CT had a way to handle this, don't ask me the exact mechanic though (I believe it took four years for a stat increase of 1 point). Just like improving a skill in CT or learning a new one required your character leaving the game for 4 years and entering a college to get one skill rank. The difference being that someone working on a physical stat increase didn't have to remove his character from the party to achieve it.

Mongoose Traveller isn't perfect, neither was Classic Traveller. If you don't like the idea of being able to improve a character through exercise, don't allow it in your games. If you do, I hope my attempts, and those of others in this thread, to come up with a house rule help you along the way.

 

[Xoph]

Your grandfather must have an high Athletics: Strength, Endurence, and Co-ordination. :wink:

 

[GhostWolf69]

If you don't like the idea of being able to improve a character through exercise, don't allow it in your games.

Another way of phrasing this would be: "If you don't like my ideas, just play the game as it is written."

Cause if you ask me this is not a question of "allowing" or not. It's a question of making up new rules or not.

I'm undecided here, but I'm leaning towards using my own version posted above, cause it is simple, demands no bookkeeping, doesn't remove PCs from the fun (i.e. they don't have to chose adventure vs. training) and I like the idea of having a chance at getting better in the skills you acctually USE in game.

/wolf

 

[Xoph]

I stick with skills, but like the players to learn things they do too. So I use the training weeks somewhat like XP.

Each player gains a training week for every session they play and learn one training week of whatever skill they use most. We don't track this in game we just decide what they used at the end of the session.

This method should lead to PCs getting better at things they do. I add this to the standard training week the players get for every week of gametime; although it is conceivable to not to.

This system (sort of stolen from the old Doctor Who) might give you what you need without changing a lot.

 

[GhostWolf69]

Yeah after a short discussion on the subject with my group I'm now leaning towards the following:

After compleating a medium length adventure they get to raise 1 skill, and give me a motivation. i.e. it is suppose to be something they did in the game that caused the raise. We also all agreed that Spectacular Failure is a valid reason so it doesn't have to be something you did well. But it can't be something completely unrelated to what we just played.

And no one seemed to like raising Stats... so I guess we won't.

/wolf

 

[Duroon]

My player group voted 3-2 to go with the following house rule on physical stats.

Same as above except scores greater than 8 can be achieved through exercise. Any score up to 8 can be achieved using the above formula. For a score of 9-11 the formula becomes (4*(current score))+1 = weeks to train. A score in the range of 12-14 uses the formula (5*(current score))+1 = weeks to train. and a score of 15 (max achievable through exercise) uses the formula of (6*(current score of 14))+1 = 85 weeks of exercise to gain a 15 from a 14.
Characters must follow a maintenance course of exercise for scores above an 8 of no less than 1 hour exercise per day. Failure to follow the exercise course for more than a month causes the loss of 1 stat point.

After we play for awhile I will let everyone know how well this works (or doesn't work as the case may be). As far as skill training goes I am going with the mechanic the core rulebook has put forth. If they want to train they have to have the time for it. I would say most of the time spent in Jump space would qualify as having enough time on their hands to train for skills. Time spent adventuring would not count as having the time to train skills though, unless it is a skill they already possess and are honing the skill to a finer level. They must be using the skill while adventuring though for this to count.

 

[Merxiless]

Seriously, the fix for this is long, difficult personal development training, during the career terms.

I've done it with classic. It's the guy who doesn't go out, and sits in the barracks and lifts weights or is constantly at the gym all day.

Yeah your grandfather exercised, but he's not planning to go from 2, right?

The guy tanked his STR as a dump stat, and now he's paying for it.

If a player asked me, I'd go for Add all physical stats = number of weeks to add +1, with a cap of maximum of 3 able to be added to any one stat.

Thus if the guy rolled a nat 12, and did personal development, say in the military, mustering out, if he was lucky, he'd be among the strongest guys in the galaxy i.e. STR 15 = E

If the guy started with a 2, I could see him getting to a 5, but no higher,

This whole thread to me smacks of trying to emulate 3.5 D&D with old wizards with STR of 15+

People age, and deteriorate, in real life, and in traveller. Exercising can slow it. But it's there. One of the best features of the game, in my opinion. Pressing up against the aging charts, you're really risking long term survival, if you want to get a lot of skills.

Packing the LMG is for the young, strong new guy to the unit.

 

[lurker]

From another thread, but it does mention using 2 'fate points' to roll 2d6 against a Stat for improvement.

I had the same issue with XP (the players !).

So, I use 'Fate Points' (brownie points, hero points, etc).

Each fate point allows: 1d6 to be re-rolled for an in game check, AFTER they have already tried it (they are hero's after all) OR 1d6 to be rolled against a skill (equal to or higher and the skill gets a level, to a max of 6) OR 2 points allows 2d6 to be rolled against a Stat (equal to or higher and the stat gains one NOTE a natural 12 automatically gives a stat increase, racial Max still stands).

I have also implimented the old Trav standard of the total skill levels not exceeding INT and EDU combined ... 0 skill count as 0.

It seems pretty simple so far, and I control how many 'Fate Points' they get per session, and the players *feel* they can keep track of how well they are doing ...