Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
This is simply incorrect.
Imperial Regional Cultures and Books Detailing Them: Continuation Thread
- Thread starter actionman
- Start date
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
This is more of a reply to several of the above posts.
The Vilani were TL11 for several thousand years, and didn't even invent the TL11 meson gun. They had encountered far more advanced races so they kneew all about higher TL stuff but kept the knowledge in secret repositories. The bugbear appears to be in machine intelligence and robots.
The Terrans began the ISW at barely TL9, they had the opportunity to reverse engineer an awful lot of Ziru Sirka tech and could send merchants and spies into the Imperium to learn more (it is my headcanon that Terran spies at some point learned of the secret knowledge repositories).
After matching the Ziru Sirka at TL11, the Terrans began research into TL12, AI robots and jump 3, while also developing the meson screen. TL12 nuclear dampers would come as a big shock to Ziru Sirka forces, your nukes not working is probably a better exaplanation for Terran superiority from this point on than a pretty naff meson spinal.
The T4 accounts of RoM technology beyond TL12 are the results of the authors going off script and making up stuff (sound familiar). While research and experimental TL13 stuff was likely in development it does beg the question of why Terra would also stagnate at TL12 when it was totally unaffected by the collapse of the Ziru Sirka and the long night that followed. And yet Earth was still TL12 when invited to join Cleon's Corporation of Imperial Delights.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It means the Third Imperium that arose on Sylea, not the Vilani TL11 Ziru Sirka or first Imperium.
Or it could be the rulers of the Ziru Sirka were scared of what would come with TL12 and so deliberately stagnated at TL11...
The Vargr were TL12 before the Terrans during the ISW era, having gained the knowledge from the Zhodani, who at the time were also ahead of the Vilani and Terrans.
You are conflating different eras of the setting history. The Third Imperium was founded 1105 years ago by Cleon, who was on Sylea but of Solomani heritage, as was most of the ruling class of Sylea. The majority population was Sylean, with only a smattering of Vilani and other human races. The Vilani were not always the stagnant conservative race portrayed, during theri early spaceflight history they sent sublight exploraion and colonisation ships to their nearby systems. After they discovered the jump drive they roamed far and wide, exploring, building colony worlds, trading with other races, and avoiding some races that were more advanced but lacked the jump drive (discovering the jump drive is not automatic). The were adventurous.
The current Third Imperium is set in the 57th century. The war between the first Imperium and the Terrans took place from the early 22nd century to the early 24th century. The Terrans won. They took over the Imperium but couldn't prevent its collapse.
The Long Night is the time period where there was no interstellar empire in the territory formerly occupied by the Ziru Sirka, this had little effect on Terra but a big effect on the worlds that were part of the Ziru SIrka.
In the 46th century Cleon the first declared his corporation controlled Sylean federation to be the inheritor of the Imperium and declare the Third Imperiu. This Imperium spread and recontacted worlds that had beeb part of empire. When they finally made it to the region close to Earth they asked Earth to rejoin - which Earth did.
All was not to end peacefully. The ruling elite of Sylea were of pure Solomani descent (at least that's what they said) and there was a movement of Solomani Supremacy among the Syleans. Remember that the Vilani Imperium was a very racist government, the whole major race minor race distinction was a control mechanism. The Syleans were a minor race, but the Solomani and Vilani major races, with the Solomani being more major...
The Solomani Movement actually began on Sylea, not Terra, but in order to placate the Solomani Supremacists the Empress granted the Solomani Autonomous Zone self rule - by Sylean Nobility claiming Solomani descent.
When the Solomani declared independence it was really another civil war - Ex Sylean now Solomani noble familes mobilising the resoures they controlled within the Solomani Sphere. Note these Solomani noble families had been on Sylea for 30 centuries...
Do not believe Third Imperial propoganda, the Solomani Supremacist movement has nothing to do with the majority of people who never left Earth or its surrounding systems 30 centuries ago.
Last edited:
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Thirty centuries of Solomani elites ruling Sylean natives founded the Third Imperium. Vilani majority worlds now removed from Ziru Sirka imposed stagnation - 30 centuries of cultural change.
Grognardia
Cosmic Mongoose
Well, take that up with the author. Don't just snarl at everything.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It's too late, it is in print. And wrong.
In what way am I snarling, I think I put it as politely as possible; the following took about 30 seconds with Copilot.
"I am trying to find out which of the various human races, neanderthal, denisovan etc were co-existant (alive) here on earth 300,000 years ago?"
Around 300,000 years ago, several different human species co-existed on Earth. Here are some of the notable ones:
I followed up with:
"Thank you - are any of them likely to be sub groups of the others?"
Great question! Yes, some of these human species are believed to be closely related and could be considered subgroups or part of a broader ancestral lineage. For example:
Not exactly difficult to do.
In what way am I snarling, I think I put it as politely as possible; the following took about 30 seconds with Copilot.
"I am trying to find out which of the various human races, neanderthal, denisovan etc were co-existant (alive) here on earth 300,000 years ago?"
Around 300,000 years ago, several different human species co-existed on Earth. Here are some of the notable ones:
- Homo sapiens: Modern humans, who evolved in Africa around this time.
- Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis): Lived in Europe and parts of Asia.
- Denisovans: Their remains have been found in Asia, particularly in Siberia and the Tibetan Plateau.
- Homo erectus: Lived in parts of Asia and Indonesia.
- Homo rhodesiensis: Found in central Africa.
- Homo naledi: Discovered in South Africa.
- Homo floresiensis (often called "hobbits"): Lived on the Indonesian island of Flores.
- Homo luzonensis: Found in the Philippines.
- Red Deer Cave People: Discovered in China.
I followed up with:
"Thank you - are any of them likely to be sub groups of the others?"
Great question! Yes, some of these human species are believed to be closely related and could be considered subgroups or part of a broader ancestral lineage. For example:
- Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) and Denisovans: These two species are considered to be sister groups, sharing a common ancestor with modern humans (Homo sapiens). They interbred with each other and with early Homo sapiens, contributing to the genetic makeup of some modern human populations.
- Homo sapiens: Modern humans share a common ancestor with Neanderthals and Denisovans, suggesting these three groups are part of the broader human family tree.
- Homo erectus: This species is considered a direct ancestor to several later human species, including Homo sapiens, Neanderthals, and Denisovans. Homo erectus was highly adaptable and spread across a wide geographic range.
- Homo rhodesiensis: Sometimes considered a regional variant of early Homo sapiens or closely related to them, possibly contributing to the ancestry of later human species in Africa.
- Homo naledi, Homo floresiensis, and Homo luzonensis: These species are more distinct but still part of the broader human family. Their exact relationships to other species are still being studied, but they represent unique evolutionary paths.
Not exactly difficult to do.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Well, actually the 45th-46th Century . . .
G'Naakbusters
Emperor Mongoose
They value social stability, and they became pretty good at it. Again, it's worth remembering that the people of Vland originally couldn't eat unless the food was prepared correctly by those in the know. You couldn't wander off and find a plot of land and do your own thing. The food preparers, and then industrialists and social organizers, always had inherent relevance and power. They're probably not considered optional. Do things as they are done, and rather than try something new, improve what you have. This isn't stagnancy, since Vilani are very ambitious as a culture, it's simply that they only deviate from what came prior if they really have to.
Innovative, individualistic Solomani who went off and did their own thing sometimes died or failed, but sometimes they came back a hundred years later with a nation and an army that was stronger than the original tribe. Innovative, individualistic Vilani who went off to do their own thing just died.
Vilani act as they assume it is logical to do so. Their ancestors remained alive and healthy, as evidenced by their own existence today. So the sensible choice is to do as your ancestors did.
But that's not how it always works, I hear you cry; changing circumstances require adaptation! Ah, but we can deal with that by making sure circumstances never change. Control is another key Vilani virtue.
The Vilani became so good at improving on their already tight social organization that they created the largest human nation ever to exist (given the lower jump ratings of the era, the Ziru Sirka was arguably quite a bit larger than the Third Imperium in terms of travel and communication time). Their systems work well -- so long as there's no outside pressure. That's why they "tided up" their neighbourhood in the Consolidation Wars (and why the Vargr and the Terrans ended up being such problems to them). People operating outside of the system -- be they Vilani Khagarii or alien Lukurranii with second-hand borrowed jump drives -- are a threat by virtue of their existence. They'll innovate rapidly, they'll challenge, they'll bring the whole thing crashing down. It's no coincidence that the only non-Vilani race ever granted permission to use Jump-2 drive were the Bwap, who can be trusted to do things The Correct Way.
It's a system designed for inertia, designed to grow and progress only in ways that preserve its basic shape.
Imagine 30,000 years of your ancestors doing everything right to ensure you came about, and then you blow it by doing something new instead of trusting that accumulated wisdom, and you die. How embarrassing. How shameful.
Precedent is king. And it just so happens that the Vilani have precedence over the other races. The Geonee got the jump drive before we did? Doesn't count, they scavenged it. The Suerrat were in space at the same time as us? Doesn't count, they didn't have jump. The Vilani are first, and so the Vilani are right, and we can all be comfortable knowing that nothing is going to overthrow or upheave the correct order.
If that means dismantling Daramm's culture or bombing Muan Issler into ashes or sterilising Lancian colonies, that's what has to happen.
Commitment to family. Respect for ancestors, desire to raise new generations of the family.
Order, stability.
Doing things The Right Way, As Our Ancestors Did It.
Sigtrygg is a Vilani.
Ambition is valued if it is justified. If you've lived and worked within your caste and diligently acted for the good of the community, by all means seek a position of increased oversight. It will take a century or so.
In Interstellar Wars we have a paragraph or two regarding Vilani heroic narratives, e.g. popular film. They tend to feature the community coming together to fight an impersonal threat. (Although I suppose the impersonal threat is often a thinly-disguised stand-in for some other race or nation).
They seem to value hospitality more than kindness. They can be brutal, especially in matters of war and government, but serving the needs of the people is paramount (more as a collective than the individuals, but guests are treated very well -- again, the food issue. A guest had to eat the food your Shugilii prepared). Civility seems a measure of correct graciousness and mutual obligation rather than compassionate humanitarianism (to use an awkward term in context).
Questions of corruption and honesty arguably have relevance in a more individualistic society, possibly?
We know that the Vilani came down hard on the Dishaan race for their inherently self-motivated behaviour. Vilani frown on those who act against communal interest. Which isn't to say they're not sometimes self-serving. Tazzik Kuluunaddar in Corridor and Provence, and another governor near Reaver's Deep -- opposite ends of the empire -- both used mercenary races to try setting up their own mini empires. Pride and ego are definitely Vilani sins, but I imagine it expresses itself a bit differently from a Solomani megalomaniac.
I have no idea if you ever watched Babylon 5, but if you did, consider the difference between Shi Alyt Shakiri and President Clarke or Emperor Catargia. Shakiri is every bit the egotist megalomaniac, but he expresses it in terms of "my caste should be dominant" rather than "I should be dominant", because in his culture individual identity is subsumed to group identity and community. I've always imagined that the breakaway Vilani of history have similar outlooks, maybe a local civic and national pride that makes them think "I embody the local tradition. That is now my ancestry/duty, not some distant shadow emperor on Vland."
It works. That's all you need to know, Terran barbarian.
It's tradition-focused. Which is like law and rule folded into one, and better than both. Rules and laws are made up. Tradition *is*. We are always subordinate to it.
Your ancestors are likely watching from the Dakhaseri, the Audience of Stars.
Third child inherits. Caste is not inherited. Off the top of my head, I can't remember many specifics.
Long life means that post-reproductive age females still had many decades of activity, and since Vilani are quasi-gerontocratic anyway, it meant that both sexes were always involved in politics.
Agreed 100%.
Probably, yes. Not so much out of profit motive but simply because the orderly machine required it.
One of the benefits of having your entire civilization united around a single driving ideal!
Can you imagine if they didn't keep advancing their technology? Humans or Vargr or Hivers couldn't be kept at bay. Oh, it starts with a ham sandwich or two. But before long your children are being eaten for dinner.
The pointy stick keeps the monster away, and the stick must get ever pointier as the monster evolves.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It was a placeholder while I checked the dates
Tbh, the earliest known TL15 group was probably Sindal. Because Sindal had the advantage of being invented by freelancers for a fanzine in an era before much detail about the rest of Charted Space was developed and its history was sparse. So no one had to worry about how Rule of Man colonists got across the Great Rift or developed Tech quite a bit more advanced than empire they were nominally part of until it collapsed. And then basically just canonized later after some name changes to avoid copyright/trademark issues (Asim was originally called Asimov, for instance).
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Imagine the culture shock of the Vilani encountering other human races, and finding they could eat their food...
"The Vilani first explored space in about 5,500 BC. They ventured out into their own star system (from their homeworld, Vland) in a region of space about 300 parsecs closer to the galactic core than Terra. They visited every world in their system, colonized a few, and put scientific bases on the
rest over a period of about a century. By 5,300 BC, the Vilani had reached a point culturally and technologically where they were ready to reach for the stars."
Does that sound like a race that doesn't have a drive to explore and adventure?
"They launched sublight interstellar colonization missions aimed at the nearest stars. Tauri, a mere 2.1 7 light-years away, was the first system visited, but several more were explored in rapid succession. Over the course of the next 500 years, the Vilani created a small interstellar community of six systems, each with its own colonies and scientific stations."
500 years to establish their own pocket empire with each system years apart as far as communication lag goes. Very conservative.
The dramatic key to the expansion of the Vilani was their discovery of the jump drive in about 4,714 BC. A research team working on the outer fringes of the Vland system created the first working prototype and demonstrated its effects with a harrowing jump to the nearby Tauri system. The Vilani now had the key to interstellar travel."
And they took a big risk... how very un-Vilani.
"Within 10 years, starships had been built and sent to every system within 20 parsecs. By 4,400 BC, the Vilani sphere had reached about 10 parsecs in diameter.
Between 4400 and 1400 BC, the Vilani explored, exploited, and settled virtually every world they contacted. Initially, their emphasis was on exploration and contact, but over the centuries, Vilani settlement inexorably followed. Worlds closest to Vland were settled first, but the star catalogs were bulging with worlds ripe for colonization and exploitation. Barren worlds were exploited for immediate gain; their resources were
strip mined and shipped off to feed Vland's growing industries."
And there we have the early history, almost. There is one thing not mentioned in this book, but is to be found elsewhere:
"In the first Millennium of Star Flight,107 the bold, foolhardy Vilani ventured out in their immense starjumpers, huge hulls packed with fuel and drives, marvels of engineering and science.
The starjumpers visited systems, stars, and worlds. They reached a thousand planets and discovered answers to classic questions of science: they filled to overflowing the data banks of the First Empire.
There was, in those early years, another type of knowledge: the unconfirmed, the incredible, the unbelievable. Stories of monsters and marvels, strangeness and strangers. These reports were problematic: hard to believe, hard to prove, hard to understand.
Who could possibly believe stories of monsters that swarmed in the vacuum of deep space, of worlds where time stood still, of sirens that called men to their dooms, of artificial planetoids in the depths of the outer oort? What reasonable scientist would believe the weird, the occult, the unproven, or the undocumented?
This false knowledge was a source of constant confusion, and to the First Empire the obvious answer was to suppress it. It was systematically removed from the databases; references were tagged unproven or fictional; more than that, they were often scrambled or deliberately corrupted. Over time, over generations, over centuries, this forbidden other knowledge was very thoroughly eradicated. The information networks were all the better for it.
And yet, there are always the few who must be contrary, and some of those contraries had great power and great resources."
"The Vilani first explored space in about 5,500 BC. They ventured out into their own star system (from their homeworld, Vland) in a region of space about 300 parsecs closer to the galactic core than Terra. They visited every world in their system, colonized a few, and put scientific bases on the
rest over a period of about a century. By 5,300 BC, the Vilani had reached a point culturally and technologically where they were ready to reach for the stars."
Does that sound like a race that doesn't have a drive to explore and adventure?
"They launched sublight interstellar colonization missions aimed at the nearest stars. Tauri, a mere 2.1 7 light-years away, was the first system visited, but several more were explored in rapid succession. Over the course of the next 500 years, the Vilani created a small interstellar community of six systems, each with its own colonies and scientific stations."
500 years to establish their own pocket empire with each system years apart as far as communication lag goes. Very conservative.
The dramatic key to the expansion of the Vilani was their discovery of the jump drive in about 4,714 BC. A research team working on the outer fringes of the Vland system created the first working prototype and demonstrated its effects with a harrowing jump to the nearby Tauri system. The Vilani now had the key to interstellar travel."
And they took a big risk... how very un-Vilani.
"Within 10 years, starships had been built and sent to every system within 20 parsecs. By 4,400 BC, the Vilani sphere had reached about 10 parsecs in diameter.
Between 4400 and 1400 BC, the Vilani explored, exploited, and settled virtually every world they contacted. Initially, their emphasis was on exploration and contact, but over the centuries, Vilani settlement inexorably followed. Worlds closest to Vland were settled first, but the star catalogs were bulging with worlds ripe for colonization and exploitation. Barren worlds were exploited for immediate gain; their resources were
strip mined and shipped off to feed Vland's growing industries."
And there we have the early history, almost. There is one thing not mentioned in this book, but is to be found elsewhere:
"In the first Millennium of Star Flight,107 the bold, foolhardy Vilani ventured out in their immense starjumpers, huge hulls packed with fuel and drives, marvels of engineering and science.
The starjumpers visited systems, stars, and worlds. They reached a thousand planets and discovered answers to classic questions of science: they filled to overflowing the data banks of the First Empire.
There was, in those early years, another type of knowledge: the unconfirmed, the incredible, the unbelievable. Stories of monsters and marvels, strangeness and strangers. These reports were problematic: hard to believe, hard to prove, hard to understand.
Who could possibly believe stories of monsters that swarmed in the vacuum of deep space, of worlds where time stood still, of sirens that called men to their dooms, of artificial planetoids in the depths of the outer oort? What reasonable scientist would believe the weird, the occult, the unproven, or the undocumented?
This false knowledge was a source of constant confusion, and to the First Empire the obvious answer was to suppress it. It was systematically removed from the databases; references were tagged unproven or fictional; more than that, they were often scrambled or deliberately corrupted. Over time, over generations, over centuries, this forbidden other knowledge was very thoroughly eradicated. The information networks were all the better for it.
And yet, there are always the few who must be contrary, and some of those contraries had great power and great resources."
That's true of just about everything about Charted Space. I don't have JTAS 26 anymore so I don't know if it says one way or another there, but I doubt it does.
Do you have some reason to suggest that this is actually not the case? Sure, any number of other options would also work since the Suerrat are not actually like any ancient humans particularly. None of them clearly fit better. Any of them would have to have been more than a little modified to end up as the Suerrat. For allw e know, it was a completely different human population that lost so many members to alien abduction there's no fossil record of them left today.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
I think it would also be valuable to leave a significant percentage of the cultural 'regions' in the referee's hands.
IMTU each sector has clusters of worlds that were settled by colonists who brought with them the traditions and aspects of culture from their homeworlds. In some cases, these colonial worlds are dozens of parsecs away from their mother world. There are clusters of worlds in the Spinward Marches settled by worlds in Corridor and Deneb Sectors and certain aspects of culture from the original world are present on the colonial world even centuries later.
This disturbs Zhodani and Vilani humans, who find the mish-mash of cultures disconcerting as they are used to more uniform expressions of culture due to their traditions of cultural conformity.
IMTU each sector has clusters of worlds that were settled by colonists who brought with them the traditions and aspects of culture from their homeworlds. In some cases, these colonial worlds are dozens of parsecs away from their mother world. There are clusters of worlds in the Spinward Marches settled by worlds in Corridor and Deneb Sectors and certain aspects of culture from the original world are present on the colonial world even centuries later.
This disturbs Zhodani and Vilani humans, who find the mish-mash of cultures disconcerting as they are used to more uniform expressions of culture due to their traditions of cultural conformity.
Last edited:
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
That's why I suggested Homo naledi, or perhaps an unrecorded branch of it, since they were believed to be already somewhat arboreal by nature.
Since the Ancients were already modifying and recombining DNA in their specimens, it would have been simple enough to take naledi and another Hominin branch (perhaps neanderthalensis and/or another) as the baseline working groups for the project.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
I was talking about the conflict between the Third Imperium and the Solomani Confederation, from the Solomani Rim War to the setting's current time.
I'm not conflating the different eras at all. I'm using current Mongoose Traveller canon. My point was that the Vilani, who were the majority population of Sylea and the majority population of the Third Imperium, have always been traditional, cautious, and loathe to innovate in regard to technology, while the Solomani have always been seeking continuous technological advancement and innovation. According to the statements in Mongoose canon, it simply doesn't follow that the Third Imperium and 3 other empires would reach TL15 before the Solomani Confederation.
In the Third Imperium book, it states that the on Sylea:
- The Syleans intermixed with the Vilani for thousands of years (since about -9000)
- The Syleans were ignored and marginalized.
- Pureblood Syleans were few.
- Vilani culture came to dominate Sylea and oppress the Syleans.
The Third Imperium book also states that there was a renaissance of Sylean culture, but they were still a tiny minority on their own planet. Then the Long Night happened, and centuries later the Solomani minority led the way toward technological advancement. Terra was the origin of the Solomani technological advancement and filled with billions of pro-technology Solomani. There's no good reason that Terra and the Old Earth Union wouldn't have kept on advancing and innovating throughout the Long Night and for the thousand years since the founding of the Third Imperium.
Something else is that the spacelanes were filled with reavers and pirates and the like during the Long Night, but governments could barely keep ships operating. This makes no sense, and I wish Mongoose would address this and other issues like this.
But they became that stagnant conservative race for 10,000 years, and according to current Mongoose canon, they still retain caution, conservatism, and a preference for tradition over innovation.
Again, even on Sylea, it was the Solomani minority that pushed for innovation.
Thank you for mentioning that. That's very true, and in all my years of playing Traveller, lurking on the TML, and other Traveller related forums, you're the first person I've seen mention it. The Solomani-are-racists trope reached its height with GURPS Traveller, so I went through all my GT books and found that the majority of races in Charted Space are racist, xenophobic, or ethnocentric, including the Vilani of the Ziru Sirka in its day. My all-time favorite racist race was the Tezcat, who would surgically transform any non-Tezcat sophonts they captured into ersatz Tezcat. But, no one ever called them racist. Only the Solomani were called racist
There was a sidebar comment in a GT book about the Imperial comedian Anthony Winston Peale telling a Solomani that the Ancients left the ancestors of the Solomani on Terra because they weren't fit to shine the Ancients' shoes. The current discussion on this thread about the different hominids on Terra 300,000 years ago has made me consider his little quip in a new light
@G'Naakbusters Your post contains a lot of ideas from prior editions of Traveller / non-Mongoose sources. This thread is about discussion how Mongoose needs to address Third Imperium populations in MgT canon with an eye to making Imperial populations more interesting to players to choose for player characters.
I have my head canon too, but this discussion isn't the place for it. I'm looking at statements in Mongoose books, drawing logical conclusions from them, and then asking questions about them in the hope that Mongoose will produce a book that addresses those questions.
But Imperial characters, who are drawn from a Vilani or mixed Vilani-Solomani population, still have to make aging checks at 50. So which is it? Do the Vilani physically decline at age 50 like the Solomani, or do they remain vigorous past age 50 like many Solomani on Sylea? Or the Vilani? It's things like this that I'd really like Mongoose to fix, with a Vilani supplement for example
Mongoose really needs to set down what's true is true in the Mongoose OTU, so we can have an OTU we all accept as a baseline, and consider deviations from that to be IMTU.Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
One theory of evolution is that early humans screwed their way to the top, and since singular tribes got distributed interstallarly and marooned, they didn't have much selection.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
Need to run out this morning, but two thoughts on all of this:
1) Once you become top dog (ape?) then progress is more risk than advantage. This can be seen in 300ish year cycles in China for several thousand years. And you can see it happen again and again in once dominant industry leaders in the US. So Vilani stagnation at TL11 is unsurprising (and also why I think meson guns should be TL12) . But that Nuclear Damper comment was very inciteful.
2) Beliefs and cultures evolve, even if they've existed for thousands of years. If you go to Egypt, you'll hear Arabic, not Coptic (which - not a linguist, but appears to be mostly derived from the old language, filtered through Romans and Christianity) and if you ask to see their mummification clinics, at best you will get a semi-polite stare.
So if the question is: What are the Vilani 'today' (1105 3I)? Then perhaps that hasn't been examined enough.
1) Once you become top dog (ape?) then progress is more risk than advantage. This can be seen in 300ish year cycles in China for several thousand years. And you can see it happen again and again in once dominant industry leaders in the US. So Vilani stagnation at TL11 is unsurprising (and also why I think meson guns should be TL12) . But that Nuclear Damper comment was very inciteful.
2) Beliefs and cultures evolve, even if they've existed for thousands of years. If you go to Egypt, you'll hear Arabic, not Coptic (which - not a linguist, but appears to be mostly derived from the old language, filtered through Romans and Christianity) and if you ask to see their mummification clinics, at best you will get a semi-polite stare.
So if the question is: What are the Vilani 'today' (1105 3I)? Then perhaps that hasn't been examined enough.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It's quite possible that the Vilani were familiar with mesons, but never used them for more than secure communications.
You could do the Naledi. My main concern is that they have much smaller brains than the other humans of the period. But obviously the Ancients can fix that.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
Okay, so there's a parallel universe where I became a professor of linguistics and I'm sure that, over there, every student in the department calls me "that guy who won't shut up about Ancient Egyptian" behind my back. But anyway... turns out that the Arabic spoken in Egypt has major grammatical differences from other Arabics and it's because it's spoken by the descendants of Coptic speakers who one day had to kinda sorta speak Arabic outside the house to keep their jobs and ended up teaching their kids something in between... I'll shut up now.
Similar threads
