Imperial marines and battledress

[phavoc]

While we're off topic (and it'll be easy to get back ON topic if I just mention battle dress, right?), how about Army Special Forces? Isn't their primary function training? I would imagine there would be less emphasis on fighting and stealth skills, but I really only know what I've read. I book I read on the subject several years ago painted the green berets as primarily working with an ally and training their armies to fight.

Yes, the special forces (e.g. the Green Berets) are trained to help train other groups, such as insurgents, to fight in other peoples back yards. They can also help train friendly nation troops, but their primary task is making people into effective guerrilla forces. They are still good with weapons and stealth, and they try to teach that (and things like infantry tactics, how to blow up bridges not yourself, etc) to their 'students'.

 

[phavoc]

The AK5 assault rifle (or the M16) also has only one purpose: Combat; yet lots of soldiers carry them around in peacetime, even in the rear echelon (I guess, in the case of the US).
The US Navy has no use for torpedoes or anti-ship missiles in peacetime, wouldn't it make as much sense to store all of them somewhere safe in the Rockies to save wear and tear? (And how long would it take to get them to Guam or the Gulf by ship?)

I sincerely doubt the Imperial Navy bothers much with local customs enforcement, that is not Imperial jurisdiction.

Buying Combat Armour à kCr 160+ to save some wear and tear on the kCr 220+ Battle Dress you have already bought does not make financial sense. Especially as Combat Armour is basically useless against low tech ATRs.

Battle Dress is great for intimidating civilians and pirates alike.

To answer the above (1) soldiers typically carry around weapons in peactime... it's called training, (2) ships typically carry ammunition for their weapons because the enemy is usually not polite enough to let them know in advance when they plan to attack, (3) planets only have legal authority up to 100D, the Imperial navy owns the space outside of that, (4) I agree, local (i.e. within 100D) customs enforcement is the responsibility of the planet, though it doesn't mean the Navy can't do it, (5) The point would be to not equip your units with both Battle Dress and Combat Armor - you'd only need one or the other. And battledress is going to require more overhead and maintenance since it's a more complicated system. Saving Cr60k may not seem like much, but the people who pay the bills multiply it by 10,000s of thousands of troopers and then it becomes big money. For math's sake, 10,000 sets of combat armor instead of battledress saves you (10,000 x Cr60,000 = Cr 600,000,000. That is not an inconsequential number for the Imperial Navy.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Nothing is cheaper than winning without a fight, both in men and equipment.

You also need to constantly train with the equipment you will actually use in war, and have it handy in case you actually need to fight. If it is stored "somewhere" it will be months into the next war before you get it, unless the storage facility is overrun, of course, in which case you never get it, either way it is unacceptable.

I do agree very much with the idea of training with the equipment you will use in wartime. However, troops in say the Core sector haven't seen a wartime in quite a while. Major depots and supply centers are never on the front lines. For example, the Depot for the Spinward Marches is in the Deneb sector (weeks to months behind the lines).

Sun Tzu also said - “who wishes to fight must first count the cost”

"You go to war with what you have, not what you want" was an old tired cliché long before Rumsfeld. I'm sure Roman centurions told their men the same...

Possibly. But that was the first time I saw it on TV.

That makes sense if you do not expect to combat insurgents any time soon, which seems quite optimistic...
Yet, I guess, the regular budget is supposed to pay for the Army's main purpose, conventional major power warfare, not hobbies like playing with recalcitrant civilians.

To me it makes no fiscal sense to scrap vehicles you spent so much money on one ($1 million each). The smarty pants in the Pentagon decided to scrap $7 billion dollars of gear in Afghanistan as they decided it was surplus. Which goes to show that reality is probably just as crazy as the future that gamers postulate.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

(1) soldiers typically carry around weapons in peactime... it's called training,
(2) ships typically carry ammunition for their weapons because the enemy is usually not polite enough to let them know in advance when they plan to attack,

Quite, and the same is true for battle dress.

(5) The point would be to not equip your units with both Battle Dress and Combat Armor - you'd only need one or the other. And battledress is going to require more overhead and maintenance since it's a more complicated system. Saving Cr60k may not seem like much, but the people who pay the bills multiply it by 10,000s of thousands of troopers and then it becomes big money. For math's sake, 10,000 sets of combat armor instead of battledress saves you (10,000 x Cr60,000 = Cr 600,000,000. That is not an inconsequential number for the Imperial Navy.

Compared to the Cr 200,000,000,000 invested in the cheap patrol ships (or more for proper warships) to cart them around it is inconsequential. To save 0.3% of the budget by greatly reducing the combat efficiency of the carried troop is penny-pinching folly.

It would be much cheaper to build the ships slightly smaller and carry less troops with battle dress.

I do agree very much with the idea of training with the equipment you will use in wartime. However, troops in say the Core sector haven't seen a wartime in quite a while.

To the properly paranoid Emperor the Core fleet is the most important of all. In history the greatest threats to the Imperium are factions in the Imperium. IIRC, Cleon's fore-mother took a frontier fleet to Capital to claim the throne. To the Emperor it is far more important to maintain the dynasty than the fate of a far frontier sector or two...

To me it makes no fiscal sense to scrap vehicles you spent so much money on one ($1 million each). The smarty pants in the Pentagon decided to scrap $7 billion dollars of gear in Afghanistan as they decided it was surplus. Which goes to show that reality is probably just as crazy as the future that gamers postulate.

What would it cost to transport them to the US (by flight?), refurbish them, prep them for storage, store them for a decade until it is decided they are obsolete, and finally dismantle them according to future environmental regulations? (I think Top Gear had a feature about the British effort to bring vehicles home from Afghanistan.)
If Congress isn't paying for that capability (but looks forward to pork-barrel spending to buy it again for next colonial police action) what can the Army do?
I agree reality is crazy.

 

[baithammer]

Battledress is rather bulky at 100 kg without any other gear, a base 12 hrs operational time ( 108 hrs if loaded up with fuel cells.) and the armour isn't particular good against ATR which generally are destructive damage.

It is a good alternative to light armoured vehicles as you can jam more of them in the same volume with comparable or better armour, with better weapons loadouts.

However, Combat Armour doesn't add 100kg of dead weight after 12 -108 hours of operation and can be flat packed for better storage.

The marines definitely benefit more from battle dress but wouldn't replace all conventional armoured troops with it.

 

[Condottiere]

If you have a twelve hour endurance, think of it like a fighter plane.

Also, if you do capture a base or a friendly shuttle drops in, you can juice up.

 

[E4MC]

"SEALS are equated with US Army Delta Force."

That is not correct. SEAL Team 6 is the only SEAL team equated with Delta Force and the two are the only tier-one special operations units in the US military. All the other SEAL Teams, as well as Army Special Forces, Marine Force Recon/Raiders, and Air Force special operation units are tier-two special operations units.

The US also has one additional tier-one special operations unit that doesn't belong to the military: The CIA's Special Activities Division (SAD) / Special Operations Group recruits former US military special operators from all branches of the military.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Battledress is rather bulky at 100 kg without any other gear, a base 12 hrs operational time ( 108 hrs if loaded up with fuel cells.) and the armour isn't particular good against ATR which generally are destructive damage.

With an Advanced Anti-Missile System (CSC, p36) upgrade a battle dress is well protected against slug throwers, grenade launchers, and missiles. Pricey, but probably worth it in a fixed assault such as a boarding. Battle Dress still offer some protection against ATRs, unlike Combat Armour

It is a good alternative to light armoured vehicles as you can jam more of them in the same volume with comparable or better armour, with better weapons loadouts.

Light vehicles can be much better armoured than battle dress, and can even carry starship weapons.
Battle dress is of course much more compact.

Just to test I built a 1½ tonne grav pod for one person with armour 50 and a medium autocannon (8D, AP24, Auto3 w. APDS ammo) with plenty of ammo. Disadvantages include 3 Dt storage space and a kCr 800 price.

However, Combat Armour doesn't add 100kg of dead weight after 12 -108 hours of operation and can be flat packed for better storage.

CA is lighter and does not require as much skill to use, but is not much smaller, it's still a hard suit.

The marines definitely benefit more from battle dress but wouldn't replace all conventional armoured troops with it.

Not all troops, but ship's troops would be more cost-effective with battle dress.

 

[phavoc]

Compared to the Cr 200,000,000,000 invested in the cheap patrol ships (or more for proper warships) to cart them around it is inconsequential. To save 0.3% of the budget by greatly reducing the combat efficiency of the carried troop is penny-pinching folly.

It would be much cheaper to build the ships slightly smaller and carry less troops with battle dress.

That would assume that the vast majority of naval vessels carry marines who board enemy ships. They wouldn't be used to invasions on planets because that would require a much larger logistical foot print. So lets run with your scenario then. Lets take a 5,000 Dton Destroyer. It's assigned task is scouting and fleet escort. It nominally carries a 10 man marine unit on board. Just how often do you believe that every naval ship is going to be boarding another naval ship? Your point is well deserved where naval vessels are constantly boarding each other. So how often are you saying these naval ships carrying their battledress-equipped marines are boarding each other when they aren't deployed anywhere near a combat area?

The Imperium isn't at war internally and externally all the time. Ships with no need for troops won't be given them. Naval ratings and ensigns are fine for nearly all peacetime, rear-area boardings - especially since there would be no enemy who would have access to large warships, nuclear weapons, and the rest of the Navy.

Economically it's insane. And militarily it is also insane, since the Navy never has enough funding, ships or marines to do everything they have to do all the time. So there is already a war within deployment to find the best fit for your available resources.

To the properly paranoid Emperor the Core fleet is the most important of all. In history the greatest threats to the Imperium are factions in the Imperium. IIRC, Cleon's fore-mother took a frontier fleet to Capital to claim the throne. To the Emperor it is far more important to maintain the dynasty than the fate of a far frontier sector or two...

Why is the Emperor paranoid? The history of the Imperium goes a long way back. From the Traveller wiki -
In the dynastic crisis caused by the death of Martin II without direct issue, Cleon Zhunastu, great-great-great-grandson of Cleon II by direct first issue, appeared to be the most legitimate claimant to the throne. Born in 201, proclaimed emperor by the Moot in 244, assassinated in 245.

Known also as Cleon the Mad, it appears that while his claim to the throne was flawless, he was not. His behavior in office (he resolved disagreements within his cabinet by shooting vocal opponents) soon convinced surviving members of the government that he was a homicidal maniac, and a decision to dispose of him was made and implemented in short order. The decision to depose a ruling emperor was not made lightly, but was agreed upon not only by those nobles closest to the emperor himself, but also by a secret meeting of the Moot, which ordered Cleon's assassination. Porfiria was chosen by lot as Cleon's heir. This act was later used by Constantus to justify his ascension to emperor by the so-called Right of Assassination.

This Cleon's fleets and paranoia did him no good. He was a whack job. Strephon isn't (Dulinor is just greedy). If this were the case then all nobility would escalate and keep massive amount of protection around them for fear of whatever. Remember you are postulating established paranoia at the highest levels here. And nobles are the ultimate trend followers.

And somebody still has to pay for it all. Overtaxed citizens and nobles tend to overthrow the government. Historically speaking at least. Maybe in the far future people LIKE high taxes?

What would it cost to transport them to the US (by flight?), refurbish them, prep them for storage, store them for a decade until it is decided they are obsolete, and finally dismantle them according to future environmental regulations? (I think Top Gear had a feature about the British effort to bring vehicles home from Afghanistan.)
If Congress isn't paying for that capability (but looks forward to pork-barrel spending to buy it again for next colonial police action) what can the Army do?
I agree reality is crazy.

MRAPS were transported by truck (or driven) to Afghanistan through the port of Karachi (it's the nearest major port). But the US military only deploys MRAPS to Afghanistan and Iraq. Evidently the high brass think that is the only place insurgents would possibly ever use IED's to blow up Humvee's.

And the cost to transport them out (2000 of the 9000 were destroyed on site after being declared surplus) was cited as a factor. Though, if you think about it, every truck that comes transporting military cargo to Afghanistan is leaving empty... and there are a LOT of trucks making that run. At $1 mil a pop, even after transport costs, they could make money selling them as surplus to all kinds of friendly and kinda-friendly nations. Or even given them to Pakistan for use in Waziristan. A lot of troops die in attacks by guerrillas there, and we are supposed to be allies in that battle. Just seems like a huge colossal waste of perfectly good equipment.

 

[phavoc]

"SEALS are equated with US Army Delta Force."

That is not correct. SEAL Team 6 is the only SEAL team equated with Delta Force and the two are the only tier-one special operations units in the US military. All the other SEAL Teams, as well as Army Special Forces, Marine Force Recon/Raiders, and Air Force special operation units are tier-two special operations units.

The US also has one additional tier-one special operations unit that doesn't belong to the military: The CIA's Special Activities Division (SAD) / Special Operations Group recruits former US military special operators from all branches of the military.

That is correct. I described them too broadly. Those units assigned to JSOC are elite of the elite.

 

[Condottiere]

Interstellar transport isn't that inexpensive either.

If you got time, it's cheaper sending a mercenary cadre to train up a force and try to manufacture equipment locally,

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That would assume that the vast majority of naval vessels carry marines who board enemy ships.

Boarding is certainly a possibility in MgT2. Repelling boarders is something to plan for. But boarding is not the only use for marines.

I guess marines have more uses in peacetime. If you want to interface with someone without blowing it up with the big guns, you send in the marines.

Who guards the ship when docked? Marines.
Who supervises a local war for compliance with the Rules of War? Marines.
Who foils the plots of megacorps/nobles/local govs against each other? INI with marine enforcers.
Who persuades a local dictator to see reason and do as he is told? Marines.
Who repossesses a stolen spinal mount? Marines.
Who frees the hostages from Vargr raiders? Marines.
Who shuts down the secret Zho base? Marines.
etc, etc, etc...

I would say the Emperor has more use for marines than spinal mounts in peacetime, yet he maintains plenty of both at all times.


By Fighting Ships and MgT2 most cruisers, but not escorts or battleships, has a marine contingent. Apparently that is Imperial doctrine, that makes some sense as cruisers are more likely to operate alone. E.g. the Ghalalk is a 50 kDt cruiser with 200 marines. That costs about 1% of the ship to put those marines into space, so the Emperor has already payed MCr 300 before we start to equip the marines. Skimping on a MCr or ten for equipment is folly.

If the budget for marines in the fleet is about 1% of the cruiser force that is not a very high priority, just a precaution to give task forces more options.

Why is the Emperor paranoid? The history of the Imperium goes a long way back.

Sorry, I meant Strephon. I have reading Asimov...

The Imperium has a long history of rebellions and civil wars going back to the first Imperium.
Strephon's dynasty was founded when Arbellatra rebelled and took the Marches fleet to the Core finishing the civil war Olav started by taking his fleet to the Core.
The Third Imperium's greatest loss was when the Solomani Sphere rebelled and seceded from the Imperium.
Many Emperors have been assassinated, so many that the Right of Assassination is a recognised way to ascend the throne.
Some version of future history suggests that civil war is not unconceivable in the 12th century...

The Emperor has good reason to be paranoid and keep the Core fleet strong.

 

[Condottiere]

I don't recall if there's a formula for Marine contingent size on Imperium ship classes.

I do recall there are supposed to be contingents in starports.

I suspect there are more commitments than Marines.

 

[phavoc]

Boarding is certainly a possibility in MgT2. Repelling boarders is something to plan for. But boarding is not the only use for marines.

I guess marines have more uses in peacetime. If you want to interface with someone without blowing it up with the big guns, you send in the marines.

Who guards the ship when docked? Marines.
Who supervises a local war for compliance with the Rules of War? Marines.
Who foils the plots of megacorps/nobles/local govs against each other? INI with marine enforcers.
Who persuades a local dictator to see reason and do as he is told? Marines.
Who repossesses a stolen spinal mount? Marines.
Who frees the hostages from Vargr raiders? Marines.
Who shuts down the secret Zho base? Marines.
etc, etc, etc...

For some of the above, why marines? There's no need for a Marine to do some of those jobs. Most of that work is handled by the Navy, but obviously the pure combat things would be Marines. But guarding a ship? That's a naval rating job. Supervising rules of war? That would most likely be a naval officer, or perhaps a marine officer. But they won't be fighting in it. Foiling plots of megacorps? Umm, that would go through the courts first, or a naval starship would demand the parties cease fighting or be fired upon... no marines required there. I dunno how somebody take a spinal mount, but that Navy would be the ones to take it back, and naval ratings, again, could do that work, no marines required.

Marines are great fighters, but they aren't everywhere, and not every task requires them. And if troops are required, there's an entire Army branch with vehicles and tanks who can do those tasks just fine. They also get hauled around by the Navy, they just don't do their fighting in space.

By Fighting Ships and MgT2 most cruisers, but not escorts or battleships, has a marine contingent. Apparently that is Imperial doctrine, that makes some sense as cruisers are more likely to operate alone. E.g. the Ghalalk is a 50 kDt cruiser with 200 marines. That costs about 1% of the ship to put those marines into space, so the Emperor has already payed MCr 300 before we start to equip the marines. Skimping on a MCr or ten for equipment is folly.

If the budget for marines in the fleet is about 1% of the cruiser force that is not a very high priority, just a precaution to give task forces more options.

Fighting ships has battleships with troops, and battleships w/o troops. The riders and tenders are w/o troops. Some BB have 300, some have 5,000. It's all over the board. The DGP books, as excellent as some of them are, are considered non-canonical last I heard. That doesn't bother me personally (I could care less what is officially canon). But others seem to care a bunch. The cruisers have troops from 0 to 500. Carriers seem to have zero. And escorts have 0 to 50. Basically it's all over the board. There seems to be no inherent logical path to follow in it.

MGT's Fighting ships is about the same. The Agashaam class carries zero troops. The Ghalalk class carries 200 troops. The AZL carries 150. Those are CA's. The CL Gionetti carries 40 troops. Carriers all have some troops (40 and up). When we get to the BB ships, we again have a range from zero (Kokkirak, Plankwell) to 2,000 (Tigress). So neither of those books really provide us with a good understanding of the embarked troop requirements.

As far as I know, the USN stopped putting Marines on Navy ships in the 90s, including carriers (except for pilots). Marines are now on their own amphibous ships (LHA, LPH, etc). Though I hear that they are contemplating putting smaller sets of marines back on some ships to forward deploy them in an emergency. I haven't read if that's gone beyond theory yet.

Sorry, I meant Strephon. I have reading Asimov...

The Imperium has a long history of rebellions and civil wars going back to the first Imperium.
Strephon's dynasty was founded when Arbellatra rebelled and took the Marches fleet to the Core finishing the civil war Olav started by taking his fleet to the Core.
The Third Imperium's greatest loss was when the Solomani Sphere rebelled and seceded from the Imperium.
Many Emperors have been assassinated, so many that the Right of Assassination is a recognised way to ascend the throne.
Some version of future history suggests that civil war is not unconceivable in the 12th century...

The Emperor has good reason to be paranoid and keep the Core fleet strong.

As far as I can recall of my Traveller history, the only times the navy rebels is when there is a bad emperor on the throne. As far as I know, Gustus killed his predecessor, and then Arbellatra killed him. My historical knowledge of the emperors getting killed by their predecessors is pretty weak, but from what I can tell, it's only the bad/incompetent ones who tend to get whacked that way and the military steps in to fix things. Not the best method of a change in governments if you ask me.

I still don't see that as a need to be paranoid. A strong core fleet is going to be present to protect Core, but beyond that stationing heavy units there is an awful waste of expensive and rare capital ships. A Tigress is a hugely expensive and powerful unit, and it's needed at the outskirts of the Imperium to fight the wars it's designed for. If we go down the DGP rebellion idea, once Dulinor did the deed, the Imperium split up into warring factions. So the strong Core fleet was ripped into by other strong sector fleets. It would have to be a limited rebellion to make a difference, otherwise it's too small to affect change. And even then, you never know where the loyalties of the crew and officers lie until the flag goes up and people have to choose a side. Putting hand-picked loyal flag officers onboard is easy, but they can get whacked by a battledress armed marine whose sympathies lies towards the other side(s). Thank goodness for battledress marines!

 

[baithammer]

From the career page.

Members of the armed fighting forces carried aboard
starships, marines deal with piracy and boarding actions
in space, defend the starports and bases belonging to the
navy and supplement ground forces such as the army

Who supervises a local war for compliance with the Rules of War? Marines.

The local noble(s) and Imperium Intelligence would be watching this.

Who persuades a local dictator to see reason and do as he is told? Marines.

Local noble of that world, who can call on naval assets if his own forces aren't sufficient.

As to spinal mounts, this is what keeps things in check.

Most of that work is handled by the Navy

The marines are the naval infantry.

 

[Condottiere]

I find that the conception of the military varies from edition to edition.

I like the GURPS one, because the military is recognizable in both it's missions and organization, whereas the Classic one feels remote, and with the current ones using terms like Star Marine a bit off putting.

You can decide what form Imperium Marines take, whether one structured after the United States model, or the CoDominium.

As regards to function, look back to the origins of naval infantry, whether it's for boarding actions, amphibious assaults or shipboard security, where they stood as guard against unsatiated shanghaied sailors.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It's meant to be remote.

The Imperium is a remote central government that doesn't have the strength in once had.

The Imperial Star Marines are closer to UK Royal Marines than the USMC - the USMC has its own naval assets, the ISM is a subsidiary of the IN (in LBB6 it doesn't get a mention as a major service, only the IA, IN and IISS).

 

[baithammer]

There is mention of marine assault ships, but those are crewed by naval personnel for operations aspects.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall, there should a security operator doe every kilotonne.

I did a quick survey of current ships.

A light cruiser should have a platoon of Marines, a heavy cruiser a company.

A super dreadnought has a battalion onboard.

My personal opinion is that every warship should have a security section, and/or a Marine contingent. Contingents under a platoon should be temporary.

Major combatants should have at least a company of Marines.

 

[NOLATrav]

IMTU the minimum Marine attachment to a given ship is a fire team (3 troops).

Ratcheting that up every 1000 dtons is a great baseline to determine Marine contingents.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For some of the above, why marines?

Because they are the Navy personnel trained for those tasks?

The marines are the Navy's specialists at shooting people. Engineers generally makes lousy gunners, gunners generally makes lousy engineers, both generally makes lousy infantrymen.

But guarding a ship? That's a naval rating job.

Who do you want to guard against an Ine Givar attack, a fusion technician, a ship's gunner (expert at controlling meson decay), or a marine trained and equipped for the job?

Supervising rules of war? That would most likely be a naval officer, or perhaps a marine officer. But they won't be fighting in it.

Who is standing in the mud, assessing the NBC training and doctrine of the participants' ground units? A Naval officer with a PhD in jumpspace topology?

Foiling plots of megacorps? Umm, that would go through the courts first, or a naval starship would demand the parties cease fighting or be fired upon... no marines required there.

A megacorp, allegedly, is covertly faking a terrorist attack on a competitor in this system. Do you inform the Imperial courts (a few months away), threaten someone with a meson strike on the nearest city, or send in the fearsome Naval electricians to find and fight the hired mercenaries?

Fighting ships has battleships with troops, and battleships w/o troops. The riders and tenders are w/o troops. Some BB have 300, some have 5,000.

I believe you are thinking of MT Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium, which is bizarre and as you say hopefully decanonised, not CT Fighting Ships which is the basis for the ships in current MgT2 HG.

As far as I can recall of my Traveller history, the only times the navy rebels is when there is a bad emperor on the throne.

I'm no expert, but I believe that is way to idealistic.

Grand Admiral Olav hault-Plankwell rebelled against Jaqueline I for no obvious reason, starting a civil war that lasted ~16 years and perhaps 20 Emperors, ending with Grand Admiral Arbellatra Alkhalikoi taking military control.

The Solomani Confederation declared independence, apparently with local fleets, not because of dissatisfaction with the Emperor's person.