Imperial Battleships
- Thread starter korpz
- Start date
A "first class battleship" is a dreadnought. Then they get older and are reclassified. One day, the Plankwell will be a 2nd Class Battleship.
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WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Except that some sources have suggested that when a Dreadnought gets downrated to battleship status, it is still a "1st class" battleship (i.e. front line / in Service), not a 2nd class ready-reserve vessel. And those same sources also suggest that the Imperium also purposefully builds 1st class battleship classes of lesser capabilities than Dreadnoughts as well.
It seems that Dreadnoughts are 1st Class , but not all 1st class vessels are Dreadnoughts.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
I don't have FFW, but a Dreadnought is effectively the top-of-the-line most advanced battleship or super-battleship built. Today's dreadnought is tomorrow's 1st class battleship.
It could be, but like the OP I can't remember seeing one!
The only semi-offical statement I can remember seeing on it is from Sector Fleet, from MJD for MgT1 in 2010:
"Battleship Including both downrated dreadnaught classes and purpose-designed second-class line-of-battle ships, the Battleship designation covers the bulk of Imperial capital ships."
Not super-clear, for sure but at least suggestive of that gap in rating.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Another problem is that MJD (who introduced the Class System all the way back in Sector Fleet) has had different versions of the system thru several successive publications. So it is hard to say what is intended. Imperial Navy is yet somewhat different, as is another earlier publication I have somewhere, I believe.
Yeah: he wrote Sector Fleet and the FFW stuff.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
According to MgT2 Imperial Navy (by MJD):
Therein lies the ambiguity.
"Dreadnought: The best and newest (and most expensive) line-of-battle ships are designated dreadnoughts. ... As a dreadnought loses its cutting-edge status, it is downgraded to battleship designation."
" Battleship: Including both downrated dreadnought classes and purpose-designed second-class line-of-battle ships, the battleship designation covers the bulk of Imperial Capital Ships. Battleships are designated first-class, second-class, and third-class according to their relative capabilities. . . ."
Therein lies the ambiguity.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
There are are three viewpoints to consider, four if you include the enemy's.
The Imperium Navy's.
The game's.
The player's.
The Tigress class is clearly a modern dreadnought, but not something a fleet commander should place right in front of the line of battle, as Nelson did with the Victory.
A lower technological level battleship may have had some, or all, of it's systems upgraded, to qualify for the forefront of battle.
The Imperium Navy's.
The game's.
The player's.
The Tigress class is clearly a modern dreadnought, but not something a fleet commander should place right in front of the line of battle, as Nelson did with the Victory.
A lower technological level battleship may have had some, or all, of it's systems upgraded, to qualify for the forefront of battle.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
It seems that MJD is using the term "Line-of-Battle Ship" as a broad designator encompassing the narrower designations Dreadnought and Battleship. So line-of-battle ship does not equal battleship.
I gather:
1) First class line-of-battle ship = Dreadnought
2) Second class line-of-battle ship = Battleship
Battleships themselves rate 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class based on relative capabilities.
The Imperium purpose builds Dreadnoughts and 1st class Battleships
It retains 2nd class Battleships in service (mostly in Active & Ready Reserves)
3rd class Battleships are in the mothball fleet for Colonial deployment at need.
I gather:
1) First class line-of-battle ship = Dreadnought
2) Second class line-of-battle ship = Battleship
Battleships themselves rate 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class based on relative capabilities.
The Imperium purpose builds Dreadnoughts and 1st class Battleships
It retains 2nd class Battleships in service (mostly in Active & Ready Reserves)
3rd class Battleships are in the mothball fleet for Colonial deployment at need.
JupiterIndustries
Banded Mongoose
"No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of an enemy.”
Never mind manoeuvres, go straight at 'em.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
The term dreadnought as a catch all term for bestest battleship didn't last very long in naval parlance, it remained a media term for a bit longer and pulp sci fi authors loved the term. Sci Fi TTRPG authors appear to be heavily influenced by the pulp sci fi novels.
As to resurrecting the line of battle and rating system I would like to know why and how it is applied in the 57th century, especially since the HG rules, if they describe ship building in the Charted Space setting, do not lend themselves to a rating system.
In previous irerations of Traveller the spinal mount was the obvious point of demarcation, but the current HG rules make them pale in comparisson to the same volume dedicated to large bays.
If things do not change in the next attempt to fix HG I would go with a rating system based on number and type of bays.
if spinals are fixed then I would go back to using the spinal to decide the rating.
As to resurrecting the line of battle and rating system I would like to know why and how it is applied in the 57th century, especially since the HG rules, if they describe ship building in the Charted Space setting, do not lend themselves to a rating system.
In previous irerations of Traveller the spinal mount was the obvious point of demarcation, but the current HG rules make them pale in comparisson to the same volume dedicated to large bays.
If things do not change in the next attempt to fix HG I would go with a rating system based on number and type of bays.
if spinals are fixed then I would go back to using the spinal to decide the rating.
IMTU we use the total tonnage of the ship devoted to weapons. It's crude and unscientific but "frigate, 32 guns" could vary hugely depending on the proportion of carronades, long guns, 32-pounders vs 24-pounders etc. So sometimes people talked about weight of broadside instead, which is not dissimilar, even if carronades could still make it misleading.
WHULorigan
Emperor Mongoose
Unlike the historical rating system, some of MJDs material used Rates (or "Classes") to categorize vessels based on their combat readiness and suitability in terms of Active & Reserve status relative to their stated vessel class, which seems to me a better use in a "modern" context.
1st Class/Rate - top of the line and in flawless condition;
6th Class/Rate - Old/obsolete ready to be sold as scrap and can be returned to reserve duty with significant effort.
Perhaps "Class" and "Rate" should be separated out as separate concepts in the Imperial Navy, with the former representing overall capability of class relative to other comparable operational type-classes, and the latter relative state of repair and obsolescence of a vessel within its intended role (including active/ready and mothball reserve).
1st Class/Rate - top of the line and in flawless condition;
6th Class/Rate - Old/obsolete ready to be sold as scrap and can be returned to reserve duty with significant effort.
Perhaps "Class" and "Rate" should be separated out as separate concepts in the Imperial Navy, with the former representing overall capability of class relative to other comparable operational type-classes, and the latter relative state of repair and obsolescence of a vessel within its intended role (including active/ready and mothball reserve).
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