Idea: fix double and triple damage weapons
- Thread starter Burger
- Start date
emperorpenguin said:
Really hates it when the dice take a turn against me for a game or 2, having some rolls go agaisnt you is fine (yes we moan about it) but when you have a prolonged run of bad rolls it really hurts, when it happens that your opponent has a long run of good rolls (which sods law says happens at the same time) it just rubs salt into the wounds.
It bugs me when you hear people always blaming their dice, but what bugs me even more is when people say you can never blame the dice.... The best laid plans of mice and men and all that.....
Using "averages" is nice when you are sat in a comfy seat but it would take all the fun out of gaming.
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
This was, of course, the idea behind Average Dice - 6-sided dice with no 1 or 6 - which used to be the rule for wargaming. SOME randomness, but not MUCH...emperorpenguin said:
The tides of progress (or maybe just passing fashions) never saw wargames moving over to D4, indeed many now use D10...
Wulf
I now have two games scheduled for saturday to try the new rolls system, a 5 point raid vs. Centauri and an unknown level vs. League. We had quite the discussion at the club about this, and all agreed that, as any gamer knows, probability does not occur on the tabletop. Average and calculate, and you will get an idea, but we believe it has to be seen and tried to get a real feel. Battle reports will follow, probably on a new thread.
Burger said:What about a squadron of 4 StrikehawksRipple said:
thats talking 4 ships.
1AD WS beam against hull 5 - 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, 6s. done
3AD SD P beam needs to get all 3 hit at all 5 phases, and is far less likely to do it when getting to 6s. rolling a single 6 then another one isnt anywhere near as hard as rolling 3 5+, 3 6s 3 6s
a single damage beam would never get 15hits and so wouldnt get the 15 rolls.
as for 4 strikehawks now we are talking 12AD of beams, quadrupling the number of original AD, which kind of goes against the whole point. sure 12AD of single damge beams have a good chance of gettign as many crits as 1AD of TD beam.
I am talking about the chance of getting 15 hits with a 3AD single damage beam, to match the 15 damage caused by my WS one game. yes the WS was lucky, but with one dice its far easier to get than having to get all 3 dice from your single damage beam hit at every stage.
it shows that beams throw crit idea out the window really.
5 hits from a WS with your idea equals 15 chances for crits, being precise is 5 crits.
a 3AD single damage beam has got far less probability of getting 15 hits, even without the maths you have to admit that.
it shows that beams throw crit idea out the window really.
5 hits from a WS with your idea equals 15 chances for crits, being precise is 5 crits.
a 3AD single damage beam has got far less probability of getting 15 hits, even without the maths you have to admit that.
You can't use a one-off freak occurance from one of your games, to argue about statistics! The chance of getting 5 hits with a 1AD SAP Beam against hull 5, is 1 in 324. It doesn't matter how rare it is to get 15 hits with 3AD, we're talking such small probabilities that its irrelevant.
Burger said:
Wow, here's the arguement in a nutshell. We have had this discussion in our group many, many times. It comes down to when you are discussing balance do you look at the maximum potential of the given weapon system or do you look at averages. Personally, I think you have to look at both. The idea that you and reaverman have come up with has the potential of moving the potential of damage to a much more consistant "flatter" curve. But there will be issues on the upper end of that curve. This specifically occurs due to the nature of the rules on beams. While it might not be common to have 5 hits from a 1AD beam, it is a possibility and must be considered in any changes to the rules. Using your system, if that WS did get the 5 hits on a hull 5 target he would average 5 criticals off that 15AD that you roll for damage. In comparision to the current rules, he would likely get about 2. That's a big deal.
We have had long discussions over the average vs. potential topic and will likely have many more in the future.
Dave
Wulf Corbett
Mongoose
Particularly with reference to Minbari...Davesaint said:
Wulf
CZuschlag
Mongoose
I have firmly come down on the side of Averages and, if you really want to get technical, Medians. Others think I'm daft.
But Burger's point about 'Maximum' is spot on. A beam does go to infinity. Convergently, but it does. So, even arguing about maximum isn't accurate -- it's meaningless. If you want to talk about 3 standard deviations above the mean, that means something. Maximum weapon potential, frankly, given the beam mechanism, does not.
But Burger's point about 'Maximum' is spot on. A beam does go to infinity. Convergently, but it does. So, even arguing about maximum isn't accurate -- it's meaningless. If you want to talk about 3 standard deviations above the mean, that means something. Maximum weapon potential, frankly, given the beam mechanism, does not.
Obviously that's because one of my friend only gets "6" while he is beaming ... (so many times ... just wondering about his girlfriend schedule)
And of course he is playing ISA ...
He is the only guy I know who gets between 6 and 8 dice per beam shot whith only one at the beggining. Needless to say he rarely scores 1 & 2 criticals, often 4 or 6 which is ... nasty no ;-)
He IS the "infinite" power of a beam
----
Concerning the "double" or "triple" or even "quad", I agree with
"the more dice you throw the more likely it is to score a critical"
But don't you like to "tempt the devil" , I'll throw 2 dice but if one gets through you're "quad" dead
I find this fun just to try to score a "triple" or so critical.
It is a matter of damage score versus the effects of criticals.
(i.e -1 speed 10 times is still -1 Speed and with a speed 10 or more you don't really care but if you have "only" 20 in damage (or less) you care about damage multipliers ... no no not thinking about a kind of WS ;-) )
Concerning the math part of the thing I don't think we should really care about the edges (even if it can happen from a math point of view).
Especially when dealing with beams.
Just keep in mind that one lucky hit can occur, that's life, but that's what gaming is all about. You can be the best general on earth (or minbar ;-) ) if you're opponent his lucky he his lucky and you are dead.
Can't fight against luck so keep close to stats and just think about
how many damage do I want to do ?
What's the proba to do it ?
Do I want to try it or do I choose another option ?
Given that you might want to incapacitate your ennemy as much as possible which will often come back to "I want to throw more and more dice"
And of course he is playing ISA ...
He is the only guy I know who gets between 6 and 8 dice per beam shot whith only one at the beggining. Needless to say he rarely scores 1 & 2 criticals, often 4 or 6 which is ... nasty no ;-)
He IS the "infinite" power of a beam
----
Concerning the "double" or "triple" or even "quad", I agree with
"the more dice you throw the more likely it is to score a critical"
But don't you like to "tempt the devil" , I'll throw 2 dice but if one gets through you're "quad" dead
I find this fun just to try to score a "triple" or so critical.
It is a matter of damage score versus the effects of criticals.
(i.e -1 speed 10 times is still -1 Speed and with a speed 10 or more you don't really care but if you have "only" 20 in damage (or less) you care about damage multipliers ... no no not thinking about a kind of WS ;-) )
Concerning the math part of the thing I don't think we should really care about the edges (even if it can happen from a math point of view).
Especially when dealing with beams.
Just keep in mind that one lucky hit can occur, that's life, but that's what gaming is all about. You can be the best general on earth (or minbar ;-) ) if you're opponent his lucky he his lucky and you are dead.
Can't fight against luck so keep close to stats and just think about
how many damage do I want to do ?
What's the proba to do it ?
Do I want to try it or do I choose another option ?
Given that you might want to incapacitate your ennemy as much as possible which will often come back to "I want to throw more and more dice"
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