How many Particle Beam weapons per turret?

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

I'll aplogize again for asking a question that has a high degree of already having been answered, unfortunately I've still not gotten a hang on how to properly phrase my search criteria for the forum.

In CT only 1 particle weapon is allowed per turret. If I recall correctly the later versions allowed two weapons per turret. For GT someone, I can't recall who, designed a spreadsheet that allows you to create various types of energy weapons. Most of the particle weapons come in at 1.5 dtons, of course the dtons varies with how many kilo/mega/giga/tera-watts of enegry is used to determine damage for the weapon.

So in MgT how many particle beam weapons fit into a standard turret?

 

[atpollard]

The MgT:Core Book says

"The number of turrets or bays that may be installed is limited by the tonnage of the spacecraft. A ship has one hardpoint per 100 tons of ship and each weapon system takes up one hardpoint. A weapon system may include multiple weapons – for example, a triple turret contains three lasers, missile launchers, sandcasters or some combination of three weapons."

Absent any other mention of restrictions on PA turrets, one must assume that (per the MgT rules) they are the same size as a laser. Three will fit in a triple turret.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello atpollard,

Glad to see you are still around providing help in Travellar. My reason for asking is that I'm designing a light combatant set in the Interstellar Wars period. I've got 8 turrets 4 triple with lasers, 2 triple with sandcasters, and the remaining turrets with triple p-beams.

The MgT:Core Book says

"The number of turrets or bays that may be installed is limited by the tonnage of the spacecraft. A ship has one hardpoint per 100 tons of ship and each weapon system takes up one hardpoint. A weapon system may include multiple weapons – for example, a triple turret contains three lasers, missile launchers, sandcasters or some combination of three weapons."

Absent any other mention of restrictions on PA turrets, one must assume that (per the MgT rules) they are the same size as a laser. Three will fit in a triple turret.

 

[AndrewW]

There is also a particle beam barbette in High Guard that is just one but uses 5 tons.

 

[snrdg121408]

Howdy AndrewW,

Thank you for the additional information which would have been a question for MgT High Guard. Does the barbette mount a single weapon or like the core book allow three weapons?

As mentioned CT allows the mounting of a single particle accelerator (beam) weapon installed in either the turret or the barbette. In CT the PA turret is 3 dtons and the barbette is 5 dtons. GT: Starships does allow mounting two particle accelerators at GTL9+ which per GURPS Traveller 2nd ed page 107 = CT TL9.

There is also a particle beam barbette in High Guard that is just one but uses 5 tons.

 

[atpollard]

While there might be no official rule I'd go with the old CT/MT concept:

I agree in principal - it just sounds right - but MgT appears to have taken a slightly different tack in this area.

It seems from reading the Core Book and High Guard that a turret weapon is a turret weapon - they are all small enough to fit 3 in a triple turret. A Barbette is less a 'big turret' and more of a 'small bay' - it is able to hold a single Bay Weapon [compared to the Bay (50 tons) and Large Bay (100 tons) that hold multiple Bay weapons.]

I like the CT/MegaTraveller view of Laser Weapons vs Plasma/Fusion Weapons vs PA Weapons, but I simply do not see the MgT rules supporting that 'world view'. The last thing a warship can afford is to go into battle with fewer guns than it is allowed.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

A triple PB turret can potentially inflict more gross damage, but the PB barbette has a better chance of inflicting damage vs armour.

At leat, at spacecraft scale combat. Using the barrage rules, the triple turret is twice as good as the barbette.

triple turret: 3d6 x 3 / barrage 9
barbette: 4d6 / barrage 4

Unless I'm missing something...

 

[AndrewW]

Howdy AndrewW,

Thank you for the additional information which would have been a question for MgT High Guard. Does the barbette mount a single weapon or like the core book allow three weapons?

As mentioned already but just to make things clear yes a barbette is just a single weapon. Sorry if it wasn't clear in my previous post.

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning AndrewW,

From what I saw you were as clear as the description that HgT HG gives on page 49. I do appreciate the clarification, which I have added to my notes and erratum file.

As mentioned already but just to make things clear yes a barbette is just a single weapon. Sorry if it wasn't clear in my previous post.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again atpollard,

As usual I want to thank you for the help you've provided me over the past few years on the various boards (SJG, T20, MT, and CT). In one way I like how MgT handles the PA turrets in another I miss the CT arrangement especially for the civilian starships. However, when I design a ship for HgT I'll use the rules from the appropriate books.

While there might be no official rule I'd go with the old CT/MT concept:

I agree in principal - it just sounds right - but MgT appears to have taken a slightly different tack in this area.

It seems from reading the Core Book and High Guard that a turret weapon is a turret weapon - they are all small enough to fit 3 in a triple turret. A Barbette is less a 'big turret' and more of a 'small bay' - it is able to hold a single Bay Weapon [compared to the Bay (50 tons) and Large Bay (100 tons) that hold multiple Bay weapons.]

I like the CT/MegaTraveller view of Laser Weapons vs Plasma/Fusion Weapons vs PA Weapons, but I simply do not see the MgT rules supporting that 'world view'. The last thing a warship can afford is to go into battle with fewer guns than it is allowed.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Klaus Kipling,

Thank you for the information and unless I'm missing something too in the barrage rules I agree with you.

A triple PB turret can potentially inflict more gross damage, but the PB barbette has a better chance of inflicting damage vs armour.

At leat, at spacecraft scale combat. Using the barrage rules, the triple turret is twice as good as the barbette.

triple turret: 3d6 x 3 / barrage 9
barbette: 4d6 / barrage 4

Unless I'm missing something...

 

[snrdg121408]

Howdy BenGunn,

Thanks for the reply and pointing out that once again the one of Traveller's strengths is for each player to modify certain aspects to fit with YTU.

While there might be no official rule I'd go with the old CT/MT concept:

I agree in principal - it just sounds right - but MgT appears to have taken a slightly different tack in this area.

It seems from reading the Core Book and High Guard that a turret weapon is a turret weapon - they are all small enough to fit 3 in a triple turret. A Barbette is less a 'big turret' and more of a 'small bay' - it is able to hold a single Bay Weapon [compared to the Bay (50 tons) and Large Bay (100 tons) that hold multiple Bay weapons.]

I like the CT/MegaTraveller view of Laser Weapons vs Plasma/Fusion Weapons vs PA Weapons, but I simply do not see the MgT rules supporting that 'world view'. The last thing a warship can afford is to go into battle with fewer guns than it is allowed.

Yes, MgT says no such thing. Does not keep one from using it

 

[atpollard]

Hello again atpollard,

As usual I want to thank you for the help you've provided me over the past few years on the various boards (SJG, T20, MT, and CT).

You are quite welcome.
Answering rules questions is just how I am wired.
Arthur

 

[captainjack23]

Yes, the above discussion seems correct - the PBW per turret was an issue that needed clarification for me because of interference from older rules sets. Its pretty clear that in MGT the PBW can be mounted just as a laser once I get past that handicap...

That said, there is a practical limit in HG - based on the power rating of the Power plant. For power values of 1&2, a max of 25% of turret weapons can be PBWs; and note that it is by total weapons, not mu,ber of turrets. which means that (for instance) a scout (100dt) cannot mount even a single PBW - one such would be 33%, and the scout powerplant is 2. with a 3 power plant it could mount 1 (33 vs a limit of 50%).

A triple turret is possible only if the scout has a factor 5 power plant, and a 200dt merchant could mount one 3PBW turret if it had a 3 factor power plant. A 400 dt ship can always mount at least one, which, interestingly, seems to be the breakpoint for a minimum sized military ship (Gazelle).

Given that any ship can mount at least 1 bay, its worth noting that the scout could mount a particle Bay , but nothing else (and in pretty cramped conditions) Bays are excluded from the power factor limits -presumably part of the space for a bay includes a dedicated power plant for the weapon system.

It does suggest a universe where smaller ship combat really can be "eggs fighting with hammers......".

Me, I like the idea of an effective penalty to the power factor, just to keep things honest - say -1 if 25% to 50% are PBW, and -2 if >50% if they are being used that turn. So, a Gazelle, is normally M4 (IIRC), could use its non PBW weapons and maneuver at 4G, or charge and fire one of its PBW turrets and maneuver at 3G, or fire both, and maneuver at 2G. makes for tougher choices, and cool commands ("power to primary weapons" !)

 

[alexhawman]

Just to reinforce what has already been said:

in Supplement 2: Traders & Gunboats
many of the warships use triple PB turrets usually with additional modifiers like high yield + accurate

This could have cleared it up quickly.

From a firepower point of view I don't understand why you would use less if you cold afford the expense. The damage to mass/cost ratio is absurd compared to anything else except meson beams because of the penetration.

 

[AndrewW]

Given that any ship can mount at least 1 bay, its worth noting that the scout could mount a particle Bay , but nothing else (and in pretty cramped conditions) Bays are excluded from the power factor limits -presumably part of the space for a bay includes a dedicated power plant for the weapon system.

Well assuming a 50 ton bay. I'de like to see someone try and mount a 100 ton bay from High Guard on a 100 ton scout and even support a gunner, let alone any power plant or drives. Could even be a 50 ton meson bay though.

 

[captainjack23]

Just to reinforce what has already been said:

in Supplement 2: Traders & Gunboats
many of the warships use triple PB turrets usually with additional modifiers like high yield + accurate

This could have cleared it up quickly.

Well, in all fairness - Traveller (and other games with a design sequence) has a long history of disconnects between the rules as stated, and designs as described and drawn....so on my part, I knew about the gunboat designs -but it never occurred to me to use it as a rules example.....

From a firepower point of view I don't understand why you would use less if you cold afford the expense. The damage to mass/cost ratio is absurd compared to anything else except meson beams because of the penetration.

Well, yes, they are* - and there are legal issues. Your average mall security guard would probably do better with an automatic riot gun, but......well.
PBWs have pretty much no justification as a defensive (self-protection) weapon -lasers can be used as point defense, at least. And don't spray rads, either.



* 4 to 8 times more expensive, IIRC, depending on the comparison. although it isn't as big a deal compared to the total cost of the ship.

 

[captainjack23]

Given that any ship can mount at least 1 bay, its worth noting that the scout could mount a particle Bay , but nothing else (and in pretty cramped conditions) Bays are excluded from the power factor limits -presumably part of the space for a bay includes a dedicated power plant for the weapon system.

Well assuming a 50 ton bay. I'de like to see someone try and mount a 100 ton bay from High Guard on a 100 ton scout and even support a gunner, let alone any power plant or drives.

Yes. Assuming a non 100 ton bay. I kinda took that as a given when discussing a 100dTon ship..

Could even be a 50 ton meson bay though.

tech limits that somewhat- unlike PBWs which seem to predate lasers- but there are also power limits in HG.