how do you hit a target 6+ ship with a -1 penalty?

how do you shoot a target 6+ destroyer with a -1 penalty because hes moved more than 7?

do you just have to wait until he slows down and then hope you have a shot on him?
 
You're not looking at all the modifiers.

There's also a +1 bonus if you are firing at that destroyer through its port or starboard arc, which would make it possible to hit a 6+ destroyer at less than long range, even when it's moving at full speed. And I'm betting the odds are even better at short range.

So there IS a way to hit a 6+ destroyer moving full out, at distances within 20", as long as the conditions are right.

If the conditions are NOT right, I don't have a problem at all believing it would be really, really hard to hit a destroyer moving at flank speed.
Read accounts of Taffy 3's destroyers and their torpedo runs. Those little guys only lived as long as they did because of their small silhouette and speed.
 
No prob here. I'm just finishing cutting up the counters as I have friends interested in playing tonight. I need to type up a one-sheet summary guide.
 
justmatt said:
You're not looking at all the modifiers.

There's also a +1 bonus if you are firing at that destroyer through its port or starboard arc, which would make it possible to hit a 6+ destroyer at less than long range, even when it's moving at full speed. And I'm betting the odds are even better at short range.

We had our first game last night (the "Guadalcanal Finale" scenario) and as far as six experienced gamers could tell reading through the rules as written destroyers are invulnerable at Night and at Flank Speed at any range, broadside or not. At Target Size 6+, Night effectively makes them TS 7+, and Flank Speed makes them 8+. At Long Range it's +9, and at Extreme Range it's +10. (I'll give you the last one: without radar fire control no one is going to hit a DD at full speed at 30,000+ yards.)

There is no bonus (that we could find) for firing at less than Long Range: at 20" or less it's all standard fire. You could House Rule something for -1 at, oh, 6 or 8 inches or less, but we saw nothing like that in Rules as Written.

With the above RAW modifiers the best even the -1 Broadside DM can do is bring the required roll down to 7+. While historically it was no doubt difficult to hit a fast-moving DD at night with gunfire it was not impossible, but that is the situation we have here: with RAW it can't be done.
All that you can do is try and get a lucky torpedo hit on the DD (oh, pleeeease waste your torps on my screen DDs rather than saving them for my cruiser or battle line...) as torperdoes ignore most of the negative attack modifiers like Range and Speed. Regardless of range the destroyers' own guns or the larger ships' secondaries have no chance of stopping an incoming high-speed destroyer division on a night torpedo run, even though that is exactly the job those weapons were intended to do.
At the present time any VAS DD skipper at night who doesn't crank up to flank speed and accept the -1 on hit attack dice is a dope: he's not going to do too much with his secondaries anyway, his torpedoes ignore the pg. 7 modifiers (like -1 for Flank Speed), and doing so insures that the chance of his taking any damage at all is vanishingly small. It's not historically accurate (read the historical account of First and Second Guadalcanal, for instance) but hey, it's what the rules let you do.

One idea our group will probably try is to ressurect the old GW method for rolling 7 or higher on a d6. Roll your attack normally, then pick up and reroll any sixes: on the reroll 4+ equals "7", 5 equals "8", and 6 equals "9". If the shot would require a "10" or more then you're out of luck.
This would fit in pretty well with the existing range modifiers, allow some chance of taking out DDs at Night or at speed, and is easier than trying to rewrite the entire combat system.

Of course, it's entirely possible we were just doing this all wrong last night: if there's something we've missed I'd greatly appreciate it if someone could show me where we goofed....
 
isn't there a few things in the game that ignore range penalties altogether, and are Destroyers really that dangerous? *ignorance and naivete due to the fact that wednesday will be my first game*
 
We had our first game last night (the "Guadalcanal Finale" scenario) and as far as six experienced gamers could tell reading through the rules as written destroyers are invulnerable at Night and at Flank Speed at any range, broadside or not. At Target Size 6+, Night effectively makes them TS 7+, and Flank Speed makes them 8+. At Long Range it's +9, and at Extreme Range it's +10. (I'll give you the last one: without radar fire control no one is going to hit a DD at full speed at 30,000+ yards.)

It all depends on the conditions you're facing at the time, which is why I don't think the rules have anything to apologize for....

A destroyer is 6+ to hit, but if you have it targeted via the "large silhouette" rule then it drops to 5+.

Put a spotter plane above it, with the large silhouette, and it drops to 4+.

If it moves at flank speed, large silhouette, plane it moves back up to 5+.

If you have it at flank speed, without the silhoutte, but with the plane, it's at 6+.

Flank speed, silhouette, no plane, 6+

Flank speed, small silhouette, no plane, 7+ -- which is fine with me.

It goes on and on. But there are going to be situations where you have a very solid chance of hitting a DD, and times when it will prove almost impossible. And at night, when it's moving at flank speed, a destroyer SHOULD be almost impossible to hit. Let's note that in confined waters, at night, you wouldn't see many real life destroyers tearing up the water at 35 knots, especially when they're mixed up with enemy forces.

If you want house rules to cover a perceived gap in the rules, maybe add in searchlights for night actions? Allow ships to be illuminated by searchlights if they're within 10" of an enemy vessel, and allow for a +1 bonus to hit. But make it a double edge sword (IE, if I announce my cruiser is illuminating an enemy hull 10" away, then I get a +1 bonus to hit it, but then again, enemy ships receive a bonus for attacking me because I just revealed myself). There are examples of ships that carelessly snapped on their searchlights just getting PLASTERED.

OR limit just how fast ships can move around at night to avoid collision.

Or try an open-ended result house rule. If you roll a "6" on a D6, then follow that up with a second toss. If you get a "4," then you landed a hit on a target that would have required a 7+. VAS follows that mechanic with critical hits. Why not try it here?

Final note -- destroyers, to fire their torpedoes, are going to have to have their port or starboard arcs presented to you, which means they will always being suffering from the large silhouette penalty, doesn't it? So look here. A destroyer, moving at flank, but presenting a broadside arc to you in order to launch a spread, is going to be 6+ to hit in daylight. Use searchlights to negate the night time firing penalty, as mentioned above, and you'll always have a chance to hit it, even at night.

Really, I don't see a problem.
 
Final note -- destroyers, to fire their torpedoes, are going to have to have their port or starboard arcs presented to you, which means they will always being suffering from the large silhouette penalty, doesn't it? So look here. A destroyer, moving at flank, but presenting a broadside arc to you in order to launch a spread, is going to be 6+ to hit in daylight. Use searchlights to negate the night time firing penalty, as mentioned above, and you'll always have a chance to hit it, even at night.

Really, I don't see a problem.

Sorry to bump it, I just thought it was the most important point out of my biblically long post there 8)

Most destroyers are only a threat when when firing their torpedoes, and if firing their torpedoes necessitates them being in "large silhouette mode", then there will always be a 6+ chance of hitting them in daylight when they're a threat to you. Which is the only time you should really be worried about them anyway. The daylight rules are just fine.

If you want to address night time conditions, add in searchlights and negate the night time penalty.
 
Problem with the searchlight rule as you have explained it, is that it just makes long lance torpedoes even more powerful in comparison to standard torpedoes. Of course, maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing to allow japanese destroyers to lurk out in the night, unseen, while launching devastating torpedo attacks against unsuspecting enemy warships.

I do like the general flavor of the searchlight rule though, so maybe we will use both!

Maybe "use seachlights" is just an additional special action option a ship can take?
 
Night fighting is an area that is crying out for some simple "special rules" to capture the chaotic atmosphere that exists (my last trip out to sea involved a night gunnery exercise and it was amazing just how "dark" things really were, even to the point of not beig able to see a 4000 tonne target at 200 yards until we put the searchlights on).

The searchlight rule proposed looks OK. I'd allow a ship to only illuminate one other ship within 10", and when doing so it would give the +1 bonus to any incoming fire from 20" or less. (as you say, ships using searchlights will tend to become fire magnets).

I'm also working on simple rules for starshells (using secondaries to put down illumination rounds) and special rules for radar at night (which in the early days tended to be directed at the nearest vessel - options to spread fire as desired were limited).
 
I don't have a problem with destroyers being impossible to hit under certain circumstances either. I also like the searchlight rule, and I believe that any night fighting scenarios should have them.
Kevin
 
How about this for a quick and dirty "starshell" rule?

Any ship with secondary armament may use 1 secondary AD to fire a starshell to any point within range (place a marker at the point where the starshell bursts). The starshell remains in place until the end of the turn; remove all markers in the end phase. Any ship within 6" of the marker counts as illuminated, +1 to incoming fire.

Also, any ship that is on fire is automatically spotted and has a +1 bonus for incoming fire.
 
Depends whether they are using flashless propellant. Scharnhorst was completely surprised by Duke of York in her final battle because the Brit BB (and most of the other Brit ships) was firing on radar and using flashless powder, so the first the Germans knew of her presence was when the rounds started falling around their ship. In the same action one of the cruisers was using old style powder which lit up the sky and she drew fire from Scharnhorst for a while, because she was the only ship the Germans could locate.
 
Back
Top