How can pirates work?

[rust]

Given all the difficulties you described, I would surmise that most pirate attacks would be on outbound trips, where the pirates have gained enough info on departing ships to pick out one that they could match vectors to.

Space is big, but that does not necessarily work in the pirates' favour.

It should not be difficult for the system's space traffic control to establish
procedures to separate flight paths by time and distance in order to make
it impossible to get near any ship without causing a system wide alarm, I
think.

The moment the navigation and traffic control satellite network would pick
up any ship that were just "hanging around" or attempting to get closer
to any other ship, the system defense craft would start moving in on the
suspicious ship.

So, piracy in any developed system seems impossible to me.

 

[katadder]

depends on the tech and how many and how good the scanners are. currently we cant even scan enough space to realistically see an incoming asteroid and a pirate ship is alot smaller than this.
trying to see something the size of a pirate corsair anywhere within this distance would be almost impossible.
even from earth thats 1275632km in every direction away from it, that would take alot of scanners of decent tech to cover every square km which a ship could hide in.
another thing to consider is a pirate could look like a merchant in the same space lane and not reveal itself until it attacks. by the time someone got out to help then the attacks over and the pirates have gone.

 

[rust]

depends on the tech and how many and how good the scanners are.

I do not imagine flight paths as entirely random in distribution within a
system. Most systems do not have that many destinations to go to with-
in the three or four parsec a civilian ship is likely to be able to jump, so
the number of possible flight paths will be limited, usually to less than
a dozen.

And with a limited number of flight paths these are not difficult to control
both with a satellite network deployed along the flight paths and with sy-
stem defense craft likewise deployed where they can reach those flight
paths quickly.

 

[kafka]

And again, it comes up with the 100dt limit...this is something that hopefully MGT Merchant Prince will rectify... the "slots" for the 100dt are at premium rates...free traders and independent merchants must go further. It is likely that local large corporation have long sewn up those lucrative jump points.

This adds travel time but also involves risk of pirates and whatnot. The further that one goes out the more chance of encountering something is. The Navy does not inspect every speck in a system...their job is to protect the 100dt and the whole system. And, even for a couple of squadrons of SDBs that is still alot of empty space. Combine that with an escort role for major planets ie Gas Giants, worlds with proximity to the Main World that are valuable (ie Luna's H3 deposits would make it more valuable than Venus) that makes the reach of the Navy quite ineffective.

 

[katadder]

if your party decides to jump at 100dt does it have to pay anything? no, obviously no one else does then either. so why would ships go outside of this?
ok they may be all over the system at differant planets mining, getting fuel etc etc but you can bet unless travelling to another planet in the same system that at 100dt they will jump.

 

[lurker]

lurker - you seem to be assuming that most pirates would be lying in wait for incoming ships.

No, that was not my assumption. You got my point. Pirates would have difficulty just sitting around lying in wait - with exceptions like lurking around gas giants. Trust me, I know about lurking.

 

[kafka]

if your party decides to jump at 100dt does it have to pay anything? no, obviously no one else does then either. so why would ships go outside of this?
ok they may be all over the system at differant planets mining, getting fuel etc etc but you can bet unless travelling to another planet in the same system that at 100dt they will jump.

This is where Jump Tapes come into play. Just as it costs..however, small to file a flight plan with the proper authorities. Interstellar travel and trade is regulated. It would probably be including in the berthing costs and data exchange that comes with every time a starship touches down...but you can bet the local worlds and SPA collaborate...and any Starship found to be explicitly flaunting the "rules" might face sanction.

I also rather like Swycaffer's idea of gigantic grav fields hoist ships to and fro orbit. This service is bound to cost something...why not have they also allocate the jump points?

 

[kristof65]

lurker - you seem to be assuming that most pirates would be lying in wait for incoming ships.

No, that was not my assumption. You got my point. Pirates would have difficulty just sitting around lying in wait - with exceptions like lurking around gas giants. Trust me, I know about lurking.

Ahh - ok. Sorry 'bout that.

So, piracy in any developed system seems impossible to me.

Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes.

Intercept times in space are typically long. If SDBs and other security ships in a system are relatively well identified, pirates will be able to calculate if they have a shot at grabbing a merchant before they can be intercepted.

"Piracy" in a high tech, developed system is probably going to be more along the lines of hijack attempts. Infiltrator on board breaks into navigation system, and "reroutes" the ship. They would most likely be targeting much lower level tech ships that local tech could defeat. Which accounts for the preponderance of anti-hijack systems and armed civilian ships in Traveller. Anti-hijack measures to keep the ship safe from any attempts, and ship to ship weapons to help defend themselves should they still wind up "off course" after an unsuccessful hijack attempt.

I do not imagine flight paths as entirely random in distribution within a
system. Most systems do not have that many destinations to go to with-
in the three or four parsec a civilian ship is likely to be able to jump, so
the number of possible flight paths will be limited, usually to less than
a dozen.

And with a limited number of flight paths these are not difficult to control
both with a satellite network deployed along the flight paths and with sy-
stem defense craft likewise deployed where they can reach those flight
paths quickly.

This depends on the exact nature of jump. Assuming you come out of jump at the same speed and trajectory you went into, yes, it does make for some predictable lanes of traffic. Each world travelled to in a system will have it's own traffic lanes - Sol could potentially have five without any other world being inhabited besides Earth - Earth and the 4 gas giants. And those traffic lanes are constantly shifting, because both the source and destination worlds are typically moving. Plus there is the possibility that incoming lanes may not be the same as outgoing lanes. So it's going to require a lot of resources to be "shifting" the watch on all possible lanes - even more so if the primary world of a system is inside a gas giant's or the local star's 100d limit. So the probability is that the more frequently used the lane, the more protection it gets - leaving possible openings and vulnerabilities on lesser used traffic lanes.


Ironically, in thinking about this, I've realized that asteroid belts are probably far safer places for starships than developed moons around gas giants, because ships simply don't have as far to travel before they can simply jump out of danger, while getting the 100d's away from a Gas Giant leaves a lot of time for a pirate to pull something off.

All in all, I think "piracy" in the Third Imperium will be much different than it is in the world today, or even that of our previous eras, but it will probably still be called piracy. It's going to be much more along the lines of robbing trains or armoured cars and high tech hijackings, and much more likely to be practiced between coprporations - an industrial espionage or trade war type of thing.

Under that assumption, it still makes sense for most civilian ships to be armed, because the corporations will still often have need to go to an independant contractor to move their goods - merchant ships of the Third Imperium are likely to be a lot like truckers of the 20th and 21st centuries.

 

[kafka]

Piracy is also akin getting mugged in NYC. Right through the 1970s, mugging and New York used to be synonyms. It got cleaned up in the 1980s a little but I still remember the bus driver pulling into the Central Bus Terminal warning us something called City-zens. And, things seem much better in the mid 1990s till about now. However, there are areas that one should not simply frequent but sometimes you don't have a choice.

The same holds true for piracy in Traveller. Travel along the established space lanes and jump only within 10dt and journey from Starport A to another Starport A...and you will be safe. However, what would be the fun in that. Another angle for piracy to work...is to have the pirates actually working for the Imperium. Sorta of like early American shipping preying of Spanish fleets did a great service to England in breaking up the Spanish hold of the Caribbean.

 

[captainjack23]

Quite a few types of modern crime are classified as piracy - hijacking, for instance -(air piracy), and , I think, extortion schemes based on sabotage still count as piracy under maritime law. So, the term will probably remain in use.

However, to be fair, "Piracy" when discussed in traveller does seem to be the "Arrr Matey" type ; ship to ship combat, ambush, etc. So, on to that.


Without commenting on the technical pro or con arguments for piracy, I think its important to remember that Piracy is seldom a good idea or a good career choice - so the fact that it is eventually doomed to failure, really isn't much of a consideration to desperate sophonts. So, I think that the way the discussion is framed: how can it work, is somewhat flawed - Piracy doesn't have to be a viable deal to exist.

Historically, almost all piracy ends in failure -if not initially, then quite rapidly thereafter once their element of surprise wears off (the ability to travel great distances is an important consideration in most post classical piracy) ; it can last longer in a political void, or with official support; but then, trade usually avoids those areas -and piracy against other pirates is simply "squabbling Warlords". However, the fact that it is a losing proposition shouldn't equate to "it will never occur".

The loons in the Indian Ocean look pretty successful right now, but....they are going to get creamed. They may never be captured, but their operation will be stopped. And they will have been pirates. And the victims will still have had to deal with them, even if the pirates eventually end up on a yardarm.

 

[cbrunish]

Back yard enthusiasts with telescopes could detect a pirate ship just hanging out waiting for the random freighter to arrive.

Seriously???? The person looking at the telescope would have to be pretty lucky to catch one ship. I mean there could be thousands of ships in orbit around a planet.

Also people are not even discussing the local space travel. Just look at the Terra system from book 6. There would be alot of insystem travel. Especially the colony in the Planetoid belt (which is probably mining).

And it should be easy to defeat scanners. Any pirate ship with a good transponder can make itself look like a patrol ship or police ship. With the way bureacracy is, no one is going to check to make sure every patrol or police ship in a system is where they are suppose to be. That is, unless something happens (such as a call for help).

 

[AKAramis]

Back yard enthusiasts with telescopes could detect a pirate ship just hanging out waiting for the random freighter to arrive.

Seriously???? The person looking at the telescope would have to be pretty lucky to catch one ship. I mean there could be thousands of ships in orbit around a planet.

Seriously. Almost 90% of in system object detections currently are done by backyard amateurs with CCD cameras, 5-12" reflectors, and computers to do the flash comparator protocol. Many of those with VISUAL comparison of the two images!

Given that objects larger by 3 orders of magnitude (x1E3) and cooler by 1 order or more are detected at ranges up to 3 orders (x1E3) of magnitude further with such systems... it is likely that they could detect them.

 

[Ishmael]

I dunno...seeing something is one thing.... recognizing what it is, is something else.
Bureaucracy and following proper channels should make is slow to check out every suspicious object in a timely fashion. Get it wrong and fire on something that turns out to not be a threat would hurt trade more than an actual pirate attack.

'pirate' spoofing and ecm would not be to avoid detection so much as to avoid identification.
Hence the tampered transponders, etc.

'''''''''''''''''''''''

I lost a post here but in it I essentially said that maybe insurance companies won't pay for damage done in a pirate attack or even resisting such an attack even though they would pay off on insured cargo lost to pirates. Cost to repair such damage would most likely be far less than losses due to lost cargo. Pirates would count on this to get in and out fast and clean. It'd also give them incentive to not damage ships as that would cause the insurance companies to cry to the navy/police or even use their own forces in extreme cases. Insurance corps are big time and can influence governments. So long as the pirate losses are not too big, only local police would bother. Heck, the Imperium doesn't get involved in full wars so long as "rules of war" are followed so losing a random ship here or there wouldn't tip their hand. Or maybe the target is a ship to be held for ransom. Paying off the ransom would be less than paying off the a ship. Of course, it helps to have a world that doesn't care or can't do anything against the pirates or is even in cahoots ( Port Royal or modern Somalia for example ).
And then there's trade wars. I imagine a lot of trade wars is done by megacorps/subsidiaries who go to the Imperium and argue who started it and use influence to get the navy to go after the other side. Wouldn't it be funny if 2 different naval units were hunting down two different groups and both the groups were claiming the other is the pirates? Or local navy goes against imperial patrols who are helping the bad guys. Hey, the Imperium can't get upset because they allow for local navies to protect their own homespace. Can't start throwing muscle around over that unless you run a Dark Imperium.

I guess that's enough babbling for now.

 

[SSWarlock]

Wouldn't it be funny if 2 different naval units were hunting down two different groups and both the groups were claiming the other is the pirates? Or local navy goes against imperial patrols who are helping the bad guys.

Or how about having two different Imperial Navy units end up on opposing sides? A group of players I GM'd for thought that would be absolutely hilarious. And it was..right up the moment the two ImpNav units ID'd each other and conversed over a secured military frequency.

The situation became very unfunny for the PCs very quickly. :wink:

 

[captainjack23]

Wouldn't it be funny if 2 different naval units were hunting down two different groups and both the groups were claiming the other is the pirates? Or local navy goes against imperial patrols who are helping the bad guys.

Or how about having two different Imperial Navy units end up on opposing sides? A group of players I GM'd for thought that would be absolutely hilarious. And it was..right up the moment the two ImpNav units ID'd each other and conversed over a secured military frequency.

The situation became very unfunny for the PCs very quickly. :wink:

Yeah, it always sucks to be them when the NPC's can communicate as efficiently with each other as the PC's.....heh heh heh.

 

[kristof65]

However, the fact that it is a losing proposition shouldn't equate to "it will never occur".

Well said.


IMTC, I don't typically use pirates to ttack the PCs. Not because they don't exist, but because it's usually a losing proposition - either for the pirates because the PCs aren't weak enough to attack, or because when they are, I'm worried about a total party kill.

Pirates and piracy are far more fun to use as an adventure - since piracy itself is such a losing proposition in the long run, PCs are a very good resource for findind and stopping pirates for local governments, megacorporations, insurance companies, victims families, etc with little risk to themselves.

 

[cbrunish]

Back yard enthusiasts with telescopes could detect a pirate ship just hanging out waiting for the random freighter to arrive.

Seriously???? The person looking at the telescope would have to be pretty lucky to catch one ship. I mean there could be thousands of ships in orbit around a planet.

Seriously. Almost 90% of in system object detections currently are done by backyard amateurs with CCD cameras, 5-12" reflectors, and computers to do the flash comparator protocol. Many of those with VISUAL comparison of the two images!

Given that objects larger by 3 orders of magnitude (x1E3) and cooler by 1 order or more are detected at ranges up to 3 orders (x1E3) of magnitude further with such systems... it is likely that they could detect them.

Oh? You're talking about a planet with NO intersteller or intrasystem traffic. Then yeah an amateur could find a ship within 100D of a planet. But a planet with heavy traffic. That would be like looking out of New York Harbor in the 1940's and being able to pick out every kind of ship.

Ok, yeah there is a higher tech level involved but that is a pretty good indication of what a planet with a high trade level would be considered. I just can't see joe blow noticing a pirate ship among the many ships in an orbit. Sorry. :shock:

 

[kristof65]

Then yeah an amateur could find a ship within 100D of a planet. But a planet with heavy traffic. That would be like looking out of New York Harbor in the 1940's and being able to pick out every kind of ship.

Ok, yeah there is a higher tech level involved but that is a pretty good indication of what a planet with a high trade level would be considered. I just can't see joe blow noticing a pirate ship among the many ships in an orbit. Sorry. :shock:

Recognition would be the key. Can the amatuer recognize it for what it is? And even if he can, can he alert anyone in time for anything to be done? Yeah, they might see the attack in progress and recognize it at that point - but by that point, it's already too late.

My guess is that you would have some hobbyist's who enjoyed tracking various starships like this - logging their movements, identifying various vessels by their markings, etc - much like railfans today. Very, very rarely would these amatuers be able to stop a pirate attack in progress.

Where these amatuers would have value, though, is in the court system after a pirate is caught - they are a potential witness, and their testimony could be valuable.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Another thing to consider is that even though "Almost 90% of in system object detections currently are done by backyard amateurs" doesn't mean that they catch everything. Specifically, here's a link to an article on a 40-80meter wide asteroid that was only discovered 4 days after it passed by Earth ( http://www.universetoday.com/2002/03/20/asteroid-discovered-after-a-near-miss/ ) and here is another for a 4-8m asteroid that wasn't detected until 11hrs after it passed Earth ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3160352.stm).

Regards

PF

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Would there even be legions of amateur astronomers in a society where space travel is routine and if you want to study (nearby) phenomena you'd be able to get up close and personal in a ship?

Two of the main reasons folk get into amateur astronomy is that a) space is cool and we don't really know what's out there, and b) you can really contribute to real science and even get astronomical bodies named after you from the work you do in your back garden. Not the only reasons, of course, but 2 big ones that don't really apply in an advanced spacefaring society.

The most advanced worlds (high tech, high pop) have air pollution and it's likely there'll be oodles of light pollution too. The only effective detectors will therefore be the official sensor grid.

Enterprising pirates would no doubt employ multiple methods to snatch the most lucrative prize, including hacking the grid controls in some way and using decoys and diversions to send all those space patrol cops onto the wrong side of the 100 diameter limit.

Though that's a bit more Ocean's 11 than "Aaaargh, matey".