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Historical fantasy
- Thread starter weasel_fierce
- Start date
zozotroll said:Wherent they called indulgences? Sort of a cash for forgiveness program?
Not exactly. Catholic Theology of the time said (and Roman Theology still says) that forgiveness was available to all in the confessional, but that every sin added to time in purgatory EVEN IF forgiven. Indulgences (most of which are free, and were even then, but require some special action) simply shave time off purgatory.
Some samples of real modern indulgences:
Pray for an indulgence the first time one enters a church (presumably catholic or orthodox only) one has never been to before.
Say a novena.
Attend daily vespers for a week at a monastery.
Fast when not required to, but don't let people know. (Catholic "fasting" allows one meal a day, so one could hide it.)
Doesn't forgive the sins, just shortens the time in purgatory, where the stains from those forgiven sins are erased.
RosenMcStern said:Still unconvinced. In Rune Magic, you control the power of the Rune/Charm/Relic, and wield it. The only RQ magic model that fits well the concept of "pray for miracles" is divine magic.
The terms are throwing you off. Many crusaders "weilded" relics to bring about miracles. The net effect is that bonding (spending pow) represents a supernatural bond to the focus. That focus could be a relic (mediævil Crusaders, Catholics all, srongly believed that the faithful could work miracles by the use of relics). Instead of a "Rune" association, it would be the saint's association... mechanically, the system only needs to have an expiry on attachment to the focus.
It doesn't need to fit the MODERN ideals to be true to the setting, merely the beliefs of the time. And, quite honestly, a good part of europe believed in Christian Magic.
Utgardloki
Mongoose
I think the relics, etc, would serve more as magic items than as runes. Perhaps a piece of the cross would serve as a protection from evil device, etc.
In my D&D game, I had an idea for enchanted holy items which could be used multiple times exactly like wands, because I wanted the clerics to be using something other than wands to store their magic spells. The exact same concept works well for Catholic magic in a Runequest game: treat a charged relic or holy item like a wand, and use the PCs Faith skill to activate it.
I don't know if Runequest has a Faith skill. I created one as a houserule for Divine Magic in lieu of Lore (Specific Theology), so GMs who are going by the book can use the Lore skill.
Going by what I know, a lot of Christian magic seems to be a matter of learning the rules for handling supernatural situations: use garlic against vampires, silver against werewolves, etc. One could use the Lore (Occult) skill to determine whether the PC knows exactly what to do ("you have to hold the cross like this") in a certain situation for a certain effect.
For the Cabalah, I think it may work similarly to D&D wizardry where instead of having a specific rune for a specific spell, you learn the spell and then say the magic words, powering them with a store of magic power that you have prepared beforehand. I've already come up with ideas for preparation and memorization of magic spells in Runequest:
Preparation would be gathering the magic energies for a magic spell to be cast some time in the future. It takes too long to be practical to do in combat, so a Cabalist would have to prepare spells for the day. A reasonable number might be a total number of magnitude spells less than or equal to her POW score.
Memorization would be the ability to prepare and cast a spell without use of a spell book, equivalent to the Spell Mastery feat of D&D. Cabalists would not forget their spells, although after casting the energy would be gone and the spell would have to be prepared again. A Cabalist could voluntarily forget a spell in order to memorize another one -- the limit could be a total magnitude of spells less than or equal to her Cabalist skill %.
As for Purgatory, a philosophy professor I had once described it as "The ultimate boot camp for souls." When I read about the Ravenloft setting, it occured to me that THAT could be purgatory. Just an idea for GMs who want to use purgatory in their campaign.
(BTW, Jesus Christ did not say "If you have faith and 5,000 gold pieces, you can raise the dead." My vision of a medieval history fantasy world indicates that it is the holy men and women who lived in poverty who had the true power, and the priests and bishops who live in luxury are somewhat cut off from the true Power of God. But then, I am not Roman Catholic, and I also graduated from a Lutheran high school. You can't beat gothic mysticism with a club.)
In my D&D game, I had an idea for enchanted holy items which could be used multiple times exactly like wands, because I wanted the clerics to be using something other than wands to store their magic spells. The exact same concept works well for Catholic magic in a Runequest game: treat a charged relic or holy item like a wand, and use the PCs Faith skill to activate it.
I don't know if Runequest has a Faith skill. I created one as a houserule for Divine Magic in lieu of Lore (Specific Theology), so GMs who are going by the book can use the Lore skill.
Going by what I know, a lot of Christian magic seems to be a matter of learning the rules for handling supernatural situations: use garlic against vampires, silver against werewolves, etc. One could use the Lore (Occult) skill to determine whether the PC knows exactly what to do ("you have to hold the cross like this") in a certain situation for a certain effect.
For the Cabalah, I think it may work similarly to D&D wizardry where instead of having a specific rune for a specific spell, you learn the spell and then say the magic words, powering them with a store of magic power that you have prepared beforehand. I've already come up with ideas for preparation and memorization of magic spells in Runequest:
Preparation would be gathering the magic energies for a magic spell to be cast some time in the future. It takes too long to be practical to do in combat, so a Cabalist would have to prepare spells for the day. A reasonable number might be a total number of magnitude spells less than or equal to her POW score.
Memorization would be the ability to prepare and cast a spell without use of a spell book, equivalent to the Spell Mastery feat of D&D. Cabalists would not forget their spells, although after casting the energy would be gone and the spell would have to be prepared again. A Cabalist could voluntarily forget a spell in order to memorize another one -- the limit could be a total magnitude of spells less than or equal to her Cabalist skill %.
As for Purgatory, a philosophy professor I had once described it as "The ultimate boot camp for souls." When I read about the Ravenloft setting, it occured to me that THAT could be purgatory. Just an idea for GMs who want to use purgatory in their campaign.
(BTW, Jesus Christ did not say "If you have faith and 5,000 gold pieces, you can raise the dead." My vision of a medieval history fantasy world indicates that it is the holy men and women who lived in poverty who had the true power, and the priests and bishops who live in luxury are somewhat cut off from the true Power of God. But then, I am not Roman Catholic, and I also graduated from a Lutheran high school. You can't beat gothic mysticism with a club.)
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
Dear All,
Of course Christians believed in magic! There are numerous sources of even "semi-official" magic in use by the Church.
As a start, can I recommend:
'Ancient Christian Magic - Coptic Texts of Ritual Power', ed. Marvin W Meyer & Richard Smith. Princeton 1999.
I know it says "ancient" in the title - but it covers up to the 11-12th centuries.
All the best
Of course Christians believed in magic! There are numerous sources of even "semi-official" magic in use by the Church.
As a start, can I recommend:
'Ancient Christian Magic - Coptic Texts of Ritual Power', ed. Marvin W Meyer & Richard Smith. Princeton 1999.
I know it says "ancient" in the title - but it covers up to the 11-12th centuries.
All the best
Utgardloki
Mongoose
Of course, Christians believed in magic. The Bible prohibits use of magic in several places. In fact, there are places where the Bible "blasts the thesaurus" at users of various types of magic, saying that witchcraft is forbidden, wizardry is forbidden, sorcery is forbidden, divination is forbidden, enchantment is forbidden, necromancy is forbidden, etc etc etc.
The problem is that since the Bible was not written in English, and the thesaurus had not yet been invented, and the modern mind says that witchcraft is not real, then just what IS forbidden by the Bible. I am especially concerned because the meaning of words tends to change, and since the late 18th century, Wizardry in particular has taken on meanings that were not addressed in the bible, such that I would claim that while the Bible addresses the concept of characters like Merlin and Gandalf, it does not address the concept of characters like Mialee and Harry Potter.
It seems to me that Christians have always had a love-hate relationship with magic of various kinds, including technology. What is acceptable or not acceptable seems to be amorphous and ever-changing, such that behavior in one place and time (e.g. making a love potion) would be rewarded while in another, perhaps nearby place or time, the exact same behavior would be punished by burning at the stake.
Of course, the fact that so many practices were prohibited means that the people enforcing the prohibitions must have believed that they were possible. My theory says that these prohibitions arose from the conflict between Moses/his followers and the Egyptian and pagan Semetic wizards. But the Bible appears to contradict itself, because in one place Moses and his men match the Egyptian wizards spell for spell, and then in another place all that stuff is strictly forbidden on pain of death.
It is all very confusing.
Perhaps the best guideline might be that issued by the whirling dervishes of Turkey, who said that the dervish is to be a conduit for divine power, but is not to direct it.
The problem is that since the Bible was not written in English, and the thesaurus had not yet been invented, and the modern mind says that witchcraft is not real, then just what IS forbidden by the Bible. I am especially concerned because the meaning of words tends to change, and since the late 18th century, Wizardry in particular has taken on meanings that were not addressed in the bible, such that I would claim that while the Bible addresses the concept of characters like Merlin and Gandalf, it does not address the concept of characters like Mialee and Harry Potter.
It seems to me that Christians have always had a love-hate relationship with magic of various kinds, including technology. What is acceptable or not acceptable seems to be amorphous and ever-changing, such that behavior in one place and time (e.g. making a love potion) would be rewarded while in another, perhaps nearby place or time, the exact same behavior would be punished by burning at the stake.
Of course, the fact that so many practices were prohibited means that the people enforcing the prohibitions must have believed that they were possible. My theory says that these prohibitions arose from the conflict between Moses/his followers and the Egyptian and pagan Semetic wizards. But the Bible appears to contradict itself, because in one place Moses and his men match the Egyptian wizards spell for spell, and then in another place all that stuff is strictly forbidden on pain of death.
It is all very confusing.
Perhaps the best guideline might be that issued by the whirling dervishes of Turkey, who said that the dervish is to be a conduit for divine power, but is not to direct it.
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
Dear All,
Sorry, I wasn't being clear - there are examples of Christian magical practices, including spells, actually being used in monasteries by monks with Church sanction (though perhaps not by higher clerical authorities).
That book (there are several other academic books on the subject) is very enlightening on what went on - not on what the clerical administration thought was going on. It also has texts of spells in it (which is why I mentioned that particular volume).
Regards
Sorry, I wasn't being clear - there are examples of Christian magical practices, including spells, actually being used in monasteries by monks with Church sanction (though perhaps not by higher clerical authorities).
That book (there are several other academic books on the subject) is very enlightening on what went on - not on what the clerical administration thought was going on. It also has texts of spells in it (which is why I mentioned that particular volume).
Regards
zozotroll said:Shaman rules are in Cults 2.
OK, thanks for the info!
Puck said:I think the actual jingle or add in Germany went something like, "Every time a coin in the coffer rings a soul from purgatory springs".
Information taught to all young lads who went to Lutheran schools.
LOL, I heard that one in ordinary elementary school and yes, Lutheran protestantism is the major religion around here...
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
AKAramis said:Not exactly. Catholic Theology of the time said (and Roman Theology still says) that forgiveness was available to all in the confessional, but that every sin added to time in purgatory EVEN IF forgiven.
Modern Catholic theology denies the existence of Purgatory. And Limbo, too. Ratzinger has just signed a document that denies the existence of Limbo, throwing most of this junk out of the window. Of course 90% of Roman Catholics follow "holy folklore" and still believe in Purgatory and Limbo. Ignorance is strong.
The terms are throwing you off. Many crusaders "weilded" relics to bring about miracles. The net effect is that bonding (spending pow) represents a supernatural bond to the focus. That focus could be a relic (mediævil Crusaders, Catholics all, srongly believed that the faithful could work miracles by the use of relics). Instead of a "Rune" association, it would be the saint's association... mechanically, the system only needs to have an expiry on attachment to the focus.
It doesn't need to fit the MODERN ideals to be true to the setting, merely the beliefs of the time. And, quite honestly, a good part of europe believed in Christian Magic.
Quote source please. I have already rebutted the whole concept of runes as connected to Saints, and there was general consensus about it. Christians did believe in magic at the time, and they still do! It is just that magic and the Church hierarchy are usually not connected. UNLIKE Glorantha and other settings.
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
Utgardloki said:(BTW, Jesus Christ did not say "If you have faith and 5,000 gold pieces, you can raise the dead." My vision of a medieval history fantasy world indicates that it is the holy men and women who lived in poverty who had the true power, and the priests and bishops who live in luxury are somewhat cut off from the true Power of God. But then, I am not Roman Catholic, and I also graduated from a Lutheran high school. You can't beat gothic mysticism with a club.)
I have suggested a solution for poor friars in Stupor Mundi. The more you donate to your order, the more advantages you get from it. Our capitalist background leads us to think that if the rules say that learning a spell costs 200 bucks then there must be a magic shop with a price list for spells. But the listed price requirement might be the amount of work you have done for your order, or that nice share of the party's booty that you have donated to the poor. In Stupor Mundi I listed a price for the Blessings of St. Francis, but if you donate that amount to the poor this certainly counts towards paying the required price!
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
yeah, I'd definately figure that sacrificies, tasks performed and contributions to the poor would count
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
Its worth noting too, for sake of our conversation, that we're talking about a lengthy timeframe. My initial thoughts were 800-900 or thereabouts, while others may want a later timeframe
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
Yes, there are some differences in the two timeframe. Vikings are still a pagan population in 800. Cities are smaller, and feudalism reigns supreme. 400-500 years later, all peoples in Europe are Christian or Muslim, except the Lithuanians, and cities are starting to thrive again. But monasteries have acquired the status of centers of power, to the point that the new orders of "poor friars" are sometimes opposing them, too, in their struggle against corruption in the Church. Last but not least, there is still One Church in 800, while this is no longer true after 1100.
RosenMcStern said:AKAramis said:Not exactly. Catholic Theology of the time said (and Roman Theology still says) that forgiveness was available to all in the confessional, but that every sin added to time in purgatory EVEN IF forgiven.
Modern Catholic theology denies the existence of Purgatory. And Limbo, too. Ratzinger has just signed a document that denies the existence of Limbo, throwing most of this junk out of the window. Of course 90% of Roman Catholics follow "holy folklore" and still believe in Purgatory and Limbo. Ignorance is strong.
The terms are throwing you off. Many crusaders "weilded" relics to bring about miracles. The net effect is that bonding (spending pow) represents a supernatural bond to the focus. That focus could be a relic (mediævil Crusaders, Catholics all, srongly believed that the faithful could work miracles by the use of relics). Instead of a "Rune" association, it would be the saint's association... mechanically, the system only needs to have an expiry on attachment to the focus.
It doesn't need to fit the MODERN ideals to be true to the setting, merely the beliefs of the time. And, quite honestly, a good part of europe believed in Christian Magic.
Quote source please. I have already rebutted the whole concept of runes as connected to Saints, and there was general consensus about it. Christians did believe in magic at the time, and they still do! It is just that magic and the Church hierarchy are usually not connected. UNLIKE Glorantha and other settings.
Not rebutted, merely rejected. There is a tremendous difference.
Also, as to purgatory: see http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM
Limbo and Purgatory are not the same things, and your ignorance and bias is showing, Rosen.
Mikko Leho
Mongoose
I got one more: could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it?
RosenMcStern
Mongoose
I am not continuing this discussion since it has turned into personal insult. Keep your opinions and I'll keep mine.
weasel_fierce
Mongoose
Hey guys, play nice
I don't know how far everyone's old games lore extends, this will be well known to some and unknown to others:
If we are talking medieval Europe, the game 1990's PC Darklands has an excellent approach to Saints as magic. A saint is a kind of spell that gives packages of benifits (usually skill increases, stat increases or healing) but sometimes also grants things like miraculous escapes, the destruction of statanic shrines or the ability to fafely deal with certain woodland folk. Since Catholics still do have a range of practices where they do "x" (a prayer, ritual or practice) in order to get "y" mundane (during my childhood my mother would pray for carparks!) outcome, simple spells with a little of appropriate flavour work well.
Since Catholism today and in Medievel Germany is not exactly amenable to simplistic analysis, the better approach is to exlicitly pick an interpretation and go with it for the purposes of your game, this is the apporach of the darklands designers. If you search on the web you can easily get a copy of the games manual with short setting synopsis, besiary, saints list and alchemical formuulae. It also makes explicit the the in game interpretation of religion that they have used.
IMO, you can't do a historical game simply without just accepting that you have to throw a bit of nuance and complexity out the window, pick a cosistent interpretation and go with it. This is the approach I have adopted in designing a 1300's BCE setting and it's the approach I would adopt in using the "real" world of any era as the basis for the setting.
If we are talking medieval Europe, the game 1990's PC Darklands has an excellent approach to Saints as magic. A saint is a kind of spell that gives packages of benifits (usually skill increases, stat increases or healing) but sometimes also grants things like miraculous escapes, the destruction of statanic shrines or the ability to fafely deal with certain woodland folk. Since Catholics still do have a range of practices where they do "x" (a prayer, ritual or practice) in order to get "y" mundane (during my childhood my mother would pray for carparks!) outcome, simple spells with a little of appropriate flavour work well.
Since Catholism today and in Medievel Germany is not exactly amenable to simplistic analysis, the better approach is to exlicitly pick an interpretation and go with it for the purposes of your game, this is the apporach of the darklands designers. If you search on the web you can easily get a copy of the games manual with short setting synopsis, besiary, saints list and alchemical formuulae. It also makes explicit the the in game interpretation of religion that they have used.
IMO, you can't do a historical game simply without just accepting that you have to throw a bit of nuance and complexity out the window, pick a cosistent interpretation and go with it. This is the approach I have adopted in designing a 1300's BCE setting and it's the approach I would adopt in using the "real" world of any era as the basis for the setting.
Utgardloki
Mongoose
That's the approach I've taken when I've had to address how Judeo-Christian religion would play into a proposed game setting. I work on the theory that nobody, not the Catholics or the Lutherans or the Muslims or the Jews really know what is going on, but all have a tiny piece of the divine cosmological puzzle that they mistake for the entire enchilada.
I would also say that if I were running a medieval game, 90% of what the medieval population believed would be bunk. Sure you could cross yourself three times to protect yourselves from fairy spirits before entering the forest, but very few people understand what is really going on.
I would also say that if I were running a medieval game, 90% of what the medieval population believed would be bunk. Sure you could cross yourself three times to protect yourselves from fairy spirits before entering the forest, but very few people understand what is really going on.
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