Historical fantasy

[Mikko Leho]

thats where folk magic (from the glorantha players guide) comes in though. As far as I figure it anyways, obviously its all preferences

Many Christians at the time would dabble with astrology, necromancy and alchemy. Different philosophies and practices were abundant across the Christian world of its day. I would have not any problems incorporating different views of magic to an alternative medieval Europe.

 

[SnowDog]

Yeah, I actually begin to think that using rune magic (with relics) or should I call it a relic magic sounds better all the time. I have to dig my books up again and read the magic rules. But I guess that this one is settled now.

Now there is only the issue with Shamans and their magic...

For Finns out there following this subject the idea is based on the comics "Luukauppias" and "Kauppamiehen kosto" (if I remember the names correctly).

 

[RosenMcStern]

Yeah, I actually begin to think that using rune magic (with relics) or should I call it a relic magic sounds better all the time.

I strongly disagree about this. Giving actual powers to a relic can be a viable idea, but basing all Christian magic on this issue could lead you to an uncomfortable situation.

First of all, each rune has its Runecasting skill. What is the theological explanation behind this? In Glorantha you have the affinites of your god to explain this, but on Earth? Although some runespells make sense for the Christian tradition (Fireblade for Archangels, for instance), the raw principles that the Runes represent have nothing to do with Christianity, Hebraism or Islam.

Secondly, with this approach Christians and Pagans have almost the same kind of magic. In the RuneQuest tradition, which was continued by HeroQuest, too, polytheistic religions have always had a different magic system than monotheism. Think of Malkioni/Theists in RQ3, MRQ and HQ. I think this should be true in Fantasy Earth, too. This is something I wrote in StuporMundi, too, although there is only one paragraph about it: Christians/Muslims have Divine Blessings, that are one-shot miracles you pray for, while pagans get access to runes/charms.

 

[zozotroll]

Shaman rules are in Cults 2.

 

[Mongoose Gar]

Healing has been the biggest problem with low magic. It just doesnt seem like pirates without a few fights, but with neither magic, nor modern medicine, people spent a fair bit of time healing up. That may be historical, but not as much fun as it could be.

One option is to let players spend Hero Points to regain hit points - say, you gain 1d4+1 hit points per location instead of 1 per location after 24 hours rest.

 

[SnowDog]

Well, like I said, my setting is not actually mythical Earth (so technically it is off-topic and I'm sorry for stealing the thread). So, while those religions are loosely based on Christianity and Paganism, they are not the same thing.

Ruriks (Christians) have strong belief in various saints which are nothing more than new forms for old gods. So, each saint have their affinities to certain runes, or in this case relics as they are suppose to be part of the saint or things strongly associated with him.

I base this thing on my observation on how many saints there are in Catholic church and many if not all of them have sort of domains that they protect. Being an atheist and coming from Lutherian viewpoint there are striking similarities to old gods and saints in general. Unfortunately I can't give you any examples but I am sure that you can find them yourself. Just to be on the safe side, I have to say that I'm not attacking anyone's wolrdview or faith, it's just an observation I have made...

 

[zozotroll]

"One option is to let players spend Hero Points to regain hit points - say, you gain 1d4+1 hit points per location instead of 1 per location after 24 hours rest."

Not a bad idea, but hero points are fw and far between. I allow several different things for hero points, and a similar healing is one of them.

But, if you are allowing legendary abilities, your players are going to hate useing hero points to heal. It takes a long time to get enough to get some of the abilities. If you use them after every fight or two, they will never get an ability.

 

[RosenMcStern]

First of all, things need not be too realistic. This is alternate Earth, after all!

Second, you are perfectly right in stating that there is a Saint for everything, and there are certainly Saints that never existed historically, though not many. But Saints in the Catholic Church (would not swear about the Orthodox Churches, though) tend to be associated with activities, not basic principles like Truth or Death. Each corporation of artisans had his Saint in the Middle Ages, for instance. But which Saint do you connect with elemental principles like Air or Disorder? This is why I like the Saint/Divine Magic association better than the Saint/Rune Magic one. With Divine Magic you tie the saintly cult/order (subcult in RQ terms) to the spells, not to the runes.

Lastly, do not forget that if you are playing in 800-1000 alternate Earth, the Orthodox Church is still stronger than the Catholic Church (they are in fact the same entity until 1054). And the Orthodox pay more attention to Icons rather than Relics, just to name one difference.

 

[Host of Angels]

Just a thought - the Cthulhu Dark Ages source book is a pretty good resource for this period. Chaosium also has a bunch of relevant books available on the subject on the website (like The Year 1000: What Life Was Like at the Turn of the First Millennium).

 

[Utgardloki]

"One option is to let players spend Hero Points to regain hit points - say, you gain 1d4+1 hit points per location instead of 1 per location after 24 hours rest."

Not a bad idea, but hero points are fw and far between. I allow several different things for hero points, and a similar healing is one of them.

But, if you are allowing legendary abilities, your players are going to hate useing hero points to heal. It takes a long time to get enough to get some of the abilities. If you use them after every fight or two, they will never get an ability.

For my Runequest games, I've decided on a house rule that Hero Points can only be used to buy abilities AFTER they are used in play. This means that instead of deciding whether to use a Hero Point for a die roll or for a wound vs using to buy a legendary ability, players are encouraged to use their hero points to GET legendary abilities. They may even decide that it is worth "blowing" a hero point on a silly die roll in order to buy the ability, but then the point won't be available when they really need it.

The purpose for this house rule is to encourage players to use hero points. Your mileage may vary.

 

[zozotroll]

Never thought of that, but a damned good idea. Stolen and will be implemented next game.

 

[weasel_fierce]

dont worry about stealing the thread If you have cool ideas thats remotely relevant, share them!

 

[zozotroll]

Isnt that what forums are for? To steal each others ideas?

To an old guy like me, I am every day amazed that I am even haveing this conversation. My kids are growing up useing the net, but will never understand my sense of wonder and amazement at what can be done with it.

 

[SnowDog]

First of all, things need not be too realistic. This is alternate Earth, after all!

Second, you are perfectly right in stating that there is a Saint for everything, and there are certainly Saints that never existed historically, though not many. But Saints in the Catholic Church (would not swear about the Orthodox Churches, though) tend to be associated with activities, not basic principles like Truth or Death. Each corporation of artisans had his Saint in the Middle Ages, for instance. But which Saint do you connect with elemental principles like Air or Disorder? This is why I like the Saint/Divine Magic association better than the Saint/Rune Magic one. With Divine Magic you tie the saintly cult/order (subcult in RQ terms) to the spells, not to the runes.

Lastly, do not forget that if you are playing in 800-1000 alternate Earth, the Orthodox Church is still stronger than the Catholic Church (they are in fact the same entity until 1054). And the Orthodox pay more attention to Icons rather than Relics, just to name one difference.

Good point about the Orthodox Church. I think that I will be settling to a little further in timeline. Catholic Church is coming from west and Orthodoxy is getting in from the east. Except that in this world there will be monsters in the east

Having looked where you hail from, I have to accept your superiority of knowledge in regards to Catholic Church and in truth I would be quite surprised if there were saints for elementals. But since this is totally fictious world I think that I will let it ride.

I understand your point of view and would not go with this if I would intend to use it in real alternate Earth to represent how magic would work with Christianity.

 

[Utgardloki]

I would say that there would not be any such thing as "Christian Magic". The Judeo-Christian religion is very hostile to the concept of magic, although one could argue that they are okay with using "technology".

For example, stripping the bark off of sticks so that your sheep become speckled is apparently okay (Bible reference is somewhere in Genesis), but hiring witches to talk to the dead is a big no-no (near the end of first Samuel).

Christians may be able to use magic that is not tied to the spirit world or to other religions, but the only magic provided by the Christian religion is direct divine intervention.

I think divine magic, as described in the Runequest Companion, may also be possible for Christians of exemplary faith. However, instead of paying for spells with money, it should be with Hero Points. (I don't like using money for divine spells -- it does not make any sense.)

 

[AKAramis]

Catholic and Orthodox praxis has always resulted in the odd heretical but saintly folk working miracles, some almost like clockwork. Often with quiet protection from the local bishop.

The use of Rune Magic, using relics instead of runes, and attunement not being permanent, and you have a good replica for the "Miracles of the Relics" so common in crusader lore.

So Rune Magic can easily fit in a Christian setting. Divine Magic as written, or even RQ3 Sorcery can easily fit in with Christian mysticism.

Spirit magic could be used to represent saintly intercessions amongst Christian mystics.

No spells would be for sale. Spells would be taught only to members of the same group or devotional cult. (Devotional cults of various saints have been tolerated since about the late second century, as part of Catholic and Orthodox praxis, with some rather strict guidelines. Some are even sufficiently tolerated to have become monastic orders...)

 

[Utgardloki]

Actually, I was thinking about the Cabala with reference to my Runequest Modern game. I am not sure how to model it, but the Christian gnostics may certainly know some bits and pieces, although perhaps not as much as the Jews.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Except that in this world there will be monsters in the east

In the Real World (TM) there were Mongols in the east, just 200 years later. If I had to choose between having monsters or Mongols as neighbors, I would go for monsters any time.

However, instead of paying for spells with money, it should be with Hero Points. (I don't like using money for divine spells -- it does not make any sense.)

From this I deduct, without any doubt, that you are not Catholic

The use of Rune Magic, using relics instead of runes, and attunement not being permanent, and you have a good replica for the "Miracles of the Relics" so common in crusader lore.

Still unconvinced. In Rune Magic, you control the power of the Rune/Charm/Relic, and wield it. The only RQ magic model that fits well the concept of "pray for miracles" is divine magic.

No spells would be for sale.

Man, everything is for sale in the Catholic Church. Just call it a "donation".

[Awaiting papal excommunication...]

 

[zozotroll]

Wherent they called indulgences? Sort of a cash for forgiveness program?

Hurry hurry hurry! Get your deadly sins forgiven today! Only 50 silver and you cann get the sin of your choice washed away. Why burn in hell, when for a small amount of cash you didnt need anyway, you can get it all squared! You never know when it will be your turn, take advantage of this once in a lifetime offer! Dont wait for the reaper to show up, then it will be to late! Hurry hurry hurry"

It is a great racket if you think about it. Make a ton of money doing the wrong things, then just buy of the church for a small amount, and you are free. It is almost like holy protection money. I wonder if you could have bought them for sins you had nnot yet commited, or it was only good for old ones?

 

[Puck]

Hurry hurry hurry! Get your deadly sins forgiven today! Only 50 silver and you cann get the sin of your choice washed away. Why burn in hell, when for a small amount of cash you didnt need anyway, you can get it all squared! You never know when it will be your turn, take advantage of this once in a lifetime offer! Dont wait for the reaper to show up, then it will be to late! Hurry hurry hurry"

I think the actual jingle or add in Germany went something like, "Every time a coin in the coffer rings a soul from purgatory springs".

Information taught to all young lads who went to Lutheran schools.