Heroquesting in MRQ

[simonh]

In an attempt to avoid becoming a victim of thready death, I'm posting this into a new thread.

Books of myths are a great idea and do exist - that's what the Unfinished Works are. They're the 'authentic' in-gloranthan myths of the major cultures - their myths of the creation, golden ages, falls from grace, etc and the founding myths of their cultures. "The Glorious Reascent of Yelm" and "Dara Happan Book of Emperors" cover Dara Happa. The Entekosiad is some of the orriginal myths of the cultures that are precursors to the Lunar Way (and which still exist independently of it in the 3rd age, as well as in the 2nd age. "Revealed mythologies" has the material on the Malkioni west and also on the mystical east of Glorantha and I think Pamaltela too (not read it in a while). The recent Lunar book covers the myths and heroquests of the Lunar goddess herself, but I can't remember it's name offhand.

The problem is these are fairly dry textbooks. They don't contain the myths in an easy format for reworking into heroquests. In any case, I think the focus of RQ has always been on the mundane world side of Glorantha, and in fact it's the same for HeroQuest, despite the name.

I believe we are slowly working towards a situation where we will have usable guidelines for writing and running heroquests, but it's taking time. It's a complex problem and requires quite a radical rethink of how to structure and run RPG scenarios. It also requires a lot of groundwork in terms of the mythologies described in the books above, and building on and extending those. I don't think it's something Mongoose can do just by handing out a writing assignment. Greg has been struggling with this for decades now.

 

[Voriof]

Might be something to think about when I've got my plate cleared. Hellenistic pottery sherds don't catalog themselves, you know!

Jeff

 

[soltakss]

Nothing particularly constructive here, but ....

Personally, I leave all the life-changing flash-of-inspiration business of HeroQuesting to others.

If I want a religious experience, I go to Church (or to Temple) - I don't particularly want to find it in a RPG.

So, my take on HeroQuesting is always more mundane than many people's.

So, what I'd like to see is:
1. A realistic interpretation of myth, allowing those myths to be used in HeroQuests
2. Simple rules that allow people to Start a HeroQuest, Progress along a HeroQuest and Finish a HeroQuest
3. Simple rules describing the benefits or penalties gained from a HeroQuest, including levels of success of a HeroQuest
4. Examples of HeroQuests in play
5. Many HeroQuests written up fully

The HeroQuest system, despite its name, has never really focussed on HeroQuesting. It seems to be focussed on the same mundane adventuring that RQ has had. This is not a bad thing, it just isn't HeroQuest-centered.

The HeroQuesting Rules in HeroQuest are very mechanistic, they split every HeroQuest into Stations (which is good) and have Levels of Success for each Station (also good) but resolve each Station on a single skill roll (bad) which reduces a HeroQuest to just a series of skill rolls.

Yes, I know that HeroQuest is a different game set in a different Age, but it is still Gloranthan and covers a lot of the same ground.

I would like to see some of those things included in RQ.

The splitting of HeroQuests into Stations is the best way to describe them, in my opinion. It is not game-specific and allows yiou to describe the HeroQuest in a standard and easy-to-follow way. That allows you to work with the Stations, throw in extra Stations and even substitute Stations into other Quests.

The Level of Success idea is useful to work out how well you did in a HeroQuest and, perhaps, what kind of a reward you can get out of a HeroQuest.

But, for RQM Gloranthan HeroQuests, I am concerned that they will just concentrate on God-Learner Quests and ignore the rest. The EWF were HeroQuesting to Draconise the cults. The Jrusteli were HeroQuesting to map out and change tyhe Mythic Realms. The Orlanthi and Pelorians were HeroQuesting to oppose the EWF and Jrusteli and also to relearn and re-experience their original myths. Carmanians HeroQuested to kill dragons. Alakoring HeroQuested to kill dragons and to reinvent Orlanthi leadership. The Sea Cultures HeroQuested to drown the lands.

King of Sartar mentions Aringor Darstalsson who performed the Lightbringers Quest and brought back Narnarra the Greater. He did this to oppose the Shadow Empire and the Godlearners.

So, non-Godlearner HeroQuesting abounded in the Second Age, so we should see more of that, using the same rules.

Obviously, the God Learners have different HeroQuesting powers and spells that are more generic than the abilities of non-Jrusteli. So, they can open Gates, exit HeroQuests and so on. But, there is no reason why they have different rules for HeroQuesting as other people.

Finally, the same rules should apply to all HeroQuesting, wether it is a Holy Day Ceremony, a Mundane Quest or a GodQuest. There should be no reason at all to say things like "Those rules don't apply to Harmast as he was a powerful HeroQuestor" - the same rules should apply to Harmast as to Cragspider as to Aringor as to Bob from Balazar, wherever that is.

 

[Adept]

<snip - a lot of excellent points>
Finally, the same rules should apply to all HeroQuesting, wether it is a Holy Day Ceremony, a Mundane Quest or a GodQuest. There should be no reason at all to say things like "Those rules don't apply to Harmast as he was a powerful HeroQuestor" - the same rules should apply to Harmast as to Cragspider as to Aringor as to Bob from Balazar, wherever that is.

A very good approach. I hope something comes of this project, and I will try to offer my own meager contributions when I can.

Right now, I have two university exams to study for...

 

[telsor]

Something soltakss said bears further discussion.

Not all Heroquests are Epic!

Maybe it's just my interpretation, but I figure just about every Gloranthan is a 'heroquester'. It's just that most of them are such mundane, ordinary, well travelled quests that they're barely worth noticing and include next to no risk.

Initiated into a cult? You've heroquested!
Attended a holy day? You Hero!

One thing that brought this home to me was when looking at trolls and the trollkin curse....Giving Birth is a Heroquest! Gbaji 'broke' the path ( made it harder to follow, and if you fail, you get a trollkin ). Cragspider tried to reestablish it, but ended up creating a new one ( great trolls ). I suppose the Mistress Race path still exists, it's just *very* tough to reach. ( maybe you need to start from wonderhome? ).

 

[Adept]

Something soltakss said bears further discussion.

Not all Heroquests are Epic!

Maybe it's just my interpretation, but I figure just about every Gloranthan is a 'heroquester'. It's just that most of them are such mundane, ordinary, well travelled quests that they're barely worth noticing and include next to no risk.
<snip>

According to Greg Stafford, heroquesting is ritual magic, and ritual magic is heroquesting (I think I have this right).

More specifically, the way to learn feats (divine spells) is to heroquest to the other side as one of a god's followers, and mimic the god. For instanse go to a famous battle where Orlanth fries his enemy with lightning. If you have prepared suitably before hand, you can learn to do what Orlanth did, and to throw lightning from your hand.

 

[soltakss]

That's why it takes so long to learn divine magic.

Of course, you probably don't actually go to the Other Side to learn the spell, that would be far too dangerous. But you get a masterclass where the priest relates the story of how the deity obtained/used the spell, you get a bit of roleplay where people dress in costumes and renact the various myths, then you are taught when to use the spell and when not to. Finally, you receive a token for the spell and receive the spell itself. All this would happen at a Temple or at a sanctified spot and you would be in a place that is both mundane and sacred at the same time. (I'm basing some of this on experiences in the Mormon Temple, where you have a similar re-enactment of a story to get a perceived benefit, so I can understand it on a certain level that is difficult to explain to others.)

In RQM, you have to make a Lore (Specific Theology) roll to get the spell. This reflects the studies you have done into the religion and ensures you know how the spell was obtained, how it should be used and the consequences of using the spell incorrectly or immorally.

Of course, I wouldn't actually roleplay this for every spell gained, as it would get a bit tedious. It might be good now and again, though.

Since you have to make a roll to get a divine spell, is there a chance that it could go wrong? What if you fumbled your Lore (Orlanth Theology) while learning Darkwalk? Does that mean that a troll comes hurtling through a Gate at the temple and beats you up?

 

[Adept]

In RQM, you have to make a Lore (Specific Theology) roll to get the spell. This reflects the studies you have done into the religion and ensures you know how the spell was obtained, how it should be used and the consequences of using the spell incorrectly or immorally.

Then again, in RQM you roll vs. the same skll to initiate a full blown HQ, don't you? I'd say it is a proper otherside quest, but a rarther predictable and easy one, where you participate on the follower level. So basically you get to be a nameless Vingkotling warrior, and blast a single opposing enemy (let's say a troll) with your newly aquired lightning. Of course if you blow you roll at that point, you don't learn lightning spell, and still have to fight that troll. Parhaps you get a few tries, assuming you don't get bludgeoned by the troll and end your quest with gruesome injuries.

I'm not a fan of the RQM approach, where injuries sustained in heroquesting don't count. Rather the opposite really. A troll PC in my game failed to steal fire from Yelmalio. Yelmalio threw him him to the ground, kicked him in the neck and burned him with a bolt of fire as he fled. As a result the character permanently has difficulty turning his head one way, and has an uncomfortable burning sensation in his butt (where the bolt of fire hit).

 

[simonh]

IMHO quests to learn Divine Magic do go to the Other Side - they have to because the power comes from the Other Side so you have to go there and 'bring it back'. It's just that these quests are well known and so the risks can be kept under controll.

The bigger more dangerous quests are another kettle of fish. They're the same kind of thing, but a lot more dangerous and unpredictable. Fore example even identifying which sttaion you're actualy at now, and which being you meet is supposed to be which, can be very difficult.

 

[soltakss]

In that case, things get very intersting indeed.

Say, you are an Orlanthi and have HeroQuested and get a Mythc Enemy, a Dark Troll (Uzko) Priestess. You have annoyed her in the past and she keeps cropping up on your quests and you on hers.

Then you learn Darkwalk from the Sandals of Darkness Subcult (I know it isn't in Cults of Glorantha, but it is still around), so you go into the Temple and do the mummery, acting out the roles, then you go to the Other Side to bring the power of the Sandals of Darkness, but instead of meeting some vague representation of Kyger Litor, your Mythic Enemy turns up, really annoyed that you are trying to steal her goddess' magic! You wouldn't even need a fumble!

That's why I normally treat it as Ceremonial/Ritual magic rather than actually crossing over.

Think of it as similar to a Shaman - he can open up an Axis Mundi to get access to the Spirit Plane or can go to a Spirit Place where the boundaries are thin, rather than actually discorporating and travelling the Spirit Plane.

So, someone learning a Divine Spell goes to a place where the boundaries are thin and the Other Side leaks through, rather than going onto the Other Side entirely.

Of course, having to go onto the Other Side is fine as well, although possibly more dangerous.

 

[simonh]

... but instead of meeting some vague representation of Kyger Litor, your Mythic Enemy turns up, really annoyed that you are trying to steal her goddess' magic! You wouldn't even need a fumble!

That's why I normally treat it as Ceremonial/Ritual magic rather than actually crossing over.

That's not going to happen normaly for a well-trodden ceremony where there are known methods to controll the risks - unless your enemy is deliberately setting up a HeroQuest Trap.

I think this is a good reason for saying it does require a trip to the Other Side. Sounds like a fun situation to roleplay. Maybe the players could try somethign like this against an enemy of theirs - Id probably allow such an attempt in a game of mine, it's a creative use of HeroQuesting.