Healers & Gladiators - Sign & Portents #50
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VincentDarlage
Mongoose
The King said:
The continent is still named Thuria.
Anyway, we are getting off topic. Surely someone has a better opinion of the Gladiater and Healer classes than I have.
slaughterj
Mongoose
VincentDarlage said:
I prefer systems without classes or levels (i.e., point-buy) and without HP (i.e., damage saves), and have run a lot of Lankhmar using Fantasy Hero (of the Hero System). The problem that arises from going that route when using d20 as a basis for such (e.g., Mutants and Masterminds when applied to non-supers settings) is that the controls that levels and related feat chains provide to significant abilities like Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, etc. are no longer present and spell advancement systems tend to be difficult to develop. So, I am with you, but there are difficult issues to address to get there that kludges like levels and classes make easy.
Vincent wrote:
Well it won't be me.
Users of this forum know pretty well what I think of classes, levels, feats and D20 in general. AD&D was a lousy system but it had the excuse to be the first one. The D20 system has no such excuse and I still think today that Conan would have been a batter game without it...
Well it won't be me.
Users of this forum know pretty well what I think of classes, levels, feats and D20 in general. AD&D was a lousy system but it had the excuse to be the first one. The D20 system has no such excuse and I still think today that Conan would have been a batter game without it...
I suppose that having grown up in the B/E D&D and AD&D 'world', I have a liking for the overall system. I don't mind hit points, levels or classes - I admit to intensely disliking feats and prestige classes. I've played a good many games and for the most part my personal experience has lead me to believe that systems without hit points/levels/classes aren't systems so much as anti-d&d-systems.
Amber DRPG is the only game that I've played that seems to have the no class/no hitpoints thing down to something that works, IMHO.
The breakdown of classes in Conan works for me because it is very customizable by region and race. After the basic stats, ,it should be all about the role-playing anyway.
Amber DRPG is the only game that I've played that seems to have the no class/no hitpoints thing down to something that works, IMHO.
The breakdown of classes in Conan works for me because it is very customizable by region and race. After the basic stats, ,it should be all about the role-playing anyway.
Actually, I do see the need for a class that fills the cleric role in Hyboria. One of the problems I have noted in my games is that Conan characters lack the ability to recover from reverses that the cleric provides. Given the levels of damage flying around, an unlucky couple of rolls can take a character out of action, either completely or effectively so. With no healing, it takes some time to recover from that.
Partly, this is an artifact of my game style. I do have a fondness for dramatic scenes involving time pressure. Stop the sacrifice, stop the summoning, flee the collapsing temple, that sort of thing. In a scenario with time pressure like that, there just isn't time for the party to recover from an unlucky reverse. More serious is when one PC is taken out, but the others are fine and continue. That leaves one player sitting around watching the action, possibly for quite some time. Having an option to get them back into play is valuable.
That said, I don't think this Healer class is the best way to go about it. I'm not so worried about the cultural problems Vincent raises. His points are valid, but I am quite happy to change the label and keep the mechanics. Some do seem to view the flavour text as inalienable from the systems they explain, but I would be quite happy to just describe the healer as casting out spirits (for Shem), or balancing the chi (for Khitai) as needed and just use the class.
My problem is that the class appears, at glance, to suck. As far as I can see, it is all about Healing. Apart from a couple of minor abilities, all the class abilities are based on healing, and the poor attack and defense figures mean it is not a front line character by a long shout. So its all about the healing ability... which is derisory.
From Skilled Healer we have an add of wisdom bonus to the result of a heal check. So probably 4.
From Battle Surgeon we have d4 then d6 then d8 plus wounded character's Con, IF they are incapacitated first.
From Staunch the Blood we get d4 plus treated character's Con.
I mean, what? am I missing something? at level 7, when the Healer gets staunch the blood, a Soldier with Con 14 will have around 66 hps. With a two handed weapon and power attack, he'll be handing out around 20 damage per whack. And the Healer can give him 3-6 hit points back? Who cares? If the Healer takes the time for a full Heal check, he gets four more points back than any other person with the Heal skill. But wait... once he is incapacited, the Healer leaps into action! he can get 4-8 back then!
And this is the class' central focus? You would be ten million times better off with a Scholar with the Heal skill, and enough Sorcery to thwack the enemy before they get to do the damage in the first place. Prevention is certainly better than cure!
Partly, this is an artifact of my game style. I do have a fondness for dramatic scenes involving time pressure. Stop the sacrifice, stop the summoning, flee the collapsing temple, that sort of thing. In a scenario with time pressure like that, there just isn't time for the party to recover from an unlucky reverse. More serious is when one PC is taken out, but the others are fine and continue. That leaves one player sitting around watching the action, possibly for quite some time. Having an option to get them back into play is valuable.
That said, I don't think this Healer class is the best way to go about it. I'm not so worried about the cultural problems Vincent raises. His points are valid, but I am quite happy to change the label and keep the mechanics. Some do seem to view the flavour text as inalienable from the systems they explain, but I would be quite happy to just describe the healer as casting out spirits (for Shem), or balancing the chi (for Khitai) as needed and just use the class.
My problem is that the class appears, at glance, to suck. As far as I can see, it is all about Healing. Apart from a couple of minor abilities, all the class abilities are based on healing, and the poor attack and defense figures mean it is not a front line character by a long shout. So its all about the healing ability... which is derisory.
From Skilled Healer we have an add of wisdom bonus to the result of a heal check. So probably 4.
From Battle Surgeon we have d4 then d6 then d8 plus wounded character's Con, IF they are incapacitated first.
From Staunch the Blood we get d4 plus treated character's Con.
I mean, what? am I missing something? at level 7, when the Healer gets staunch the blood, a Soldier with Con 14 will have around 66 hps. With a two handed weapon and power attack, he'll be handing out around 20 damage per whack. And the Healer can give him 3-6 hit points back? Who cares? If the Healer takes the time for a full Heal check, he gets four more points back than any other person with the Heal skill. But wait... once he is incapacited, the Healer leaps into action! he can get 4-8 back then!
And this is the class' central focus? You would be ten million times better off with a Scholar with the Heal skill, and enough Sorcery to thwack the enemy before they get to do the damage in the first place. Prevention is certainly better than cure!
I agree that this can be an issue in Conan. Those hit points can run out pretty fast, which means you might have to be more cautious than what would feel right for the genre. And I definitely share your fondness for hectic scenarios where all the action might take place during one long and bloody night without any time to recuperate; this kind of action feels very Sword & Sorcery to me.kintire said:
However, if I were to address this problem, I'd definitely not do it with a Healer class, but instead by introducing some "second wind" or "reserve hit points" mechanic (or something that allows you to recover very fast between fights). Basically, the barbarian/nomad/badass mercenary should be able to push on because he has a will of iron, not because he has a friend who can patch him up, kiss him on the cheek, and make everything better.
This was also my first thought of the class; that it seems very boring to play. A character whose sole purpose is to be the party healer is usually not very fun for the player. This "problem" was addressed in D&D 3.0 when the cleric class was given the ability to do a lot more than just heal.kintire said:
librarycharlie
Mongoose
All I can say is that my players like the classes, and they present some interesting opportunities for multiclassing at advanced levels.
Additionally, the healer as battlefield medic seems more like a scholar prestige class than an independent class, but many mercenaries and soldier-types might take a level or two (while avoiding scholar) just to reflect their experiences as field medics.
I know many of the fine writers for the mongoose canon weave flavor into their classes, but in our campaign, that's the job of the players, and is done much more by skill and feat selection than by the handful of special abilities granted by the class.
Even so, we fudge the abilities when applicable (for a barbarian trained with a single weapon, he got weapon focus rather than versatility).
In a world where the GM is willing to flex the rules, I think these two archetypes can work for many players. And while medics were not highly visible in Howard's stories, given the wounds taken by Conan, we can assume that either there's no bacteria in Hyboria, or that somebody somewhere knew how to mend a wound. No, we don't ever see the healing, but it has to come from somewhere. This is a semi-plausible explanation.
And for barbarians vs gladiators, that's again up to the player to decide which suits his character best.
I, for one, welcome two more base classes into our game. We have a temptress and Martial Disciple already and the party seems much happier for their additions.
Additionally, the healer as battlefield medic seems more like a scholar prestige class than an independent class, but many mercenaries and soldier-types might take a level or two (while avoiding scholar) just to reflect their experiences as field medics.
I know many of the fine writers for the mongoose canon weave flavor into their classes, but in our campaign, that's the job of the players, and is done much more by skill and feat selection than by the handful of special abilities granted by the class.
Even so, we fudge the abilities when applicable (for a barbarian trained with a single weapon, he got weapon focus rather than versatility).
In a world where the GM is willing to flex the rules, I think these two archetypes can work for many players. And while medics were not highly visible in Howard's stories, given the wounds taken by Conan, we can assume that either there's no bacteria in Hyboria, or that somebody somewhere knew how to mend a wound. No, we don't ever see the healing, but it has to come from somewhere. This is a semi-plausible explanation.
And for barbarians vs gladiators, that's again up to the player to decide which suits his character best.
I, for one, welcome two more base classes into our game. We have a temptress and Martial Disciple already and the party seems much happier for their additions.
thats my idea aswell so how about this.
Last Stand : requires the use of a fate point, can only be used once per encounter(up to gm really) and restores a number of hp to the character equal to their constitution score. having the great fortitude, endurance, die hard and toughness feats all give an extra 2 hp each when Last Stand is used.
i personally dont think the healer class is worth it, but its abilities would make some great options for non-sorcerous scholars.
gladiator i think could have been done with a few feats.
Sutek
Mongoose
I just want to chime in here as challenged by Vincent some number of posts back and defend the Class.
Without much argument, the single most successful RPG in th elast decade has been D&D and that led to Mongoose creating Conan using the OGL. It was a successful, easy, and profitable way to go rather than trying something new and hoping to dethrone D&D or be successful in D&D's shadow (which few other systems have been able to do).
The Class is the core of the success of the D&D system because of the engineering of the game mechanics, much of which were cleaned up in D&D 3.5. The system hangs together and orbits around the concept of progressive levels of a Character Class, and the functionality of every roll being governed by a d20. It presented a very generic base (the intent of the Class) with a very flixable and unified game mecchanic (d20 rolls).
The Class is the generic archetype that makes the Role Playing possible. These generic shells could be augmented by other factors to customize those generic archetypes, not the least of which is Character Race. The notion of "templates" was carried over into monsters much later, but that's really all a "race" is: modifiers to the generic template of the Character Class. Feats and Skills further add to the customizability of the Class, and these could be altered mid-advancement through the application of "mini-classes" called Prestige Classes, which are really just pre-packaged Feat bundles packed into a Class level progression package. The add to and expand the generic class template, but one curious thing happened: the kept adding them.
This served to undermine the generic template that the Class represented, and took away the aspect of customizability for the ease of geting it all in one place. Prestige Classes became one-stop-shopping, and they came out by the dozen. The generic template of the Character Class was becoming less generic and more pre-sculpted.
With the addition of more and more prestige classes, the basis of the Role Playing experience was no longer a generic template, but was becoming, instead, a planned path system where players would simply map out feat and skill selection in order to get to the powerful prestige classes they wanted. The "role" started slipping out of the class based RPG then and there.
Conan stated off not having this problem. It relied on many racial template to augment a basic variety of character classes. It took the approach that the races, feats and skills along with manuvers would augment the basic classes and allow characters to create even more flixable role playing experiences.
What went awry was the subsequent creation of other base classes that responded to basic D&D's bureoning prestige class glut, with the thinking that it would offer more options on which to base characters. The problem is that each new class created either deviated from the Conan genre drastically, or they served a function that could have already been arrived at with additions of feats and skills or a small rule set instead of creating an entirely new template. This further undermines the generic template of the class, and dilutes the freedom that players have to create characters, and instead opts for smaller and smaller unique templates and less generic character creation paths.
It's not classes themselves that are dibilitating to the role playing experience, but rather the dilution of the mechanics and the diminishment of the generic character template by continually funneling the character creation process into "specifics" rather than "generics".
Without much argument, the single most successful RPG in th elast decade has been D&D and that led to Mongoose creating Conan using the OGL. It was a successful, easy, and profitable way to go rather than trying something new and hoping to dethrone D&D or be successful in D&D's shadow (which few other systems have been able to do).
The Class is the core of the success of the D&D system because of the engineering of the game mechanics, much of which were cleaned up in D&D 3.5. The system hangs together and orbits around the concept of progressive levels of a Character Class, and the functionality of every roll being governed by a d20. It presented a very generic base (the intent of the Class) with a very flixable and unified game mecchanic (d20 rolls).
The Class is the generic archetype that makes the Role Playing possible. These generic shells could be augmented by other factors to customize those generic archetypes, not the least of which is Character Race. The notion of "templates" was carried over into monsters much later, but that's really all a "race" is: modifiers to the generic template of the Character Class. Feats and Skills further add to the customizability of the Class, and these could be altered mid-advancement through the application of "mini-classes" called Prestige Classes, which are really just pre-packaged Feat bundles packed into a Class level progression package. The add to and expand the generic class template, but one curious thing happened: the kept adding them.
This served to undermine the generic template that the Class represented, and took away the aspect of customizability for the ease of geting it all in one place. Prestige Classes became one-stop-shopping, and they came out by the dozen. The generic template of the Character Class was becoming less generic and more pre-sculpted.
With the addition of more and more prestige classes, the basis of the Role Playing experience was no longer a generic template, but was becoming, instead, a planned path system where players would simply map out feat and skill selection in order to get to the powerful prestige classes they wanted. The "role" started slipping out of the class based RPG then and there.
Conan stated off not having this problem. It relied on many racial template to augment a basic variety of character classes. It took the approach that the races, feats and skills along with manuvers would augment the basic classes and allow characters to create even more flixable role playing experiences.
What went awry was the subsequent creation of other base classes that responded to basic D&D's bureoning prestige class glut, with the thinking that it would offer more options on which to base characters. The problem is that each new class created either deviated from the Conan genre drastically, or they served a function that could have already been arrived at with additions of feats and skills or a small rule set instead of creating an entirely new template. This further undermines the generic template of the class, and dilutes the freedom that players have to create characters, and instead opts for smaller and smaller unique templates and less generic character creation paths.
It's not classes themselves that are dibilitating to the role playing experience, but rather the dilution of the mechanics and the diminishment of the generic character template by continually funneling the character creation process into "specifics" rather than "generics".
Prestige classes made D&D less about role-playing?
I'd say (A)D&D was never a RPG all that suited to role-playing. It just happened to dominate the market and it became the common language of the RPG world. What D&D is great for is video game role-playing (maybe ironic, certainly evidenced with Evercrack, et al), roll-playing, or whatever conveys the idea in one's mind best that the nature of the game is to achieve mechanical progression.
Start off weak, level up, power up, become strong. Reboot.
The people who played the game differently from this, i.e. looking at their characters as something besides numbers, were making do with the tools available. Unfortunately, only Wizards was clever enough to claim back the market with its OGL and make the RPG world all about the (new) D&D structure again.
I had extremely negative views toward the class/level system because I would play all of these other systems at cons that captured fiction genres so much better. But, then it became clear that what you want in a one shot like a con game and what you want in a campaign are very different. Progression is fairly meaningless in con games; there's living campaigns, of course. Character evolution, especially improvement, should be found in campaigns. Now, I still get annoyed when players' only goals are to power up their characters since they could just play WoW if that's all that interests them, but I completely understand the idea of "What do I do with these EPs/at next level?"
With Conan, it doesn't bother me that it uses D20 since that's about the only way we would have enough players to play. It doesn't seem particularly illfitting as some other genre might (Eternal Champion comes to mind as something that doesn't fit as well). I'm thankful that it does attempt to capture the genre where D&D is just a game about D&D. There are still numerous things that irritate me, of course, both because of the D20 core system and the obvious imbalances. But, they don't bother the others, so we don't house rule them to death.
I'd say (A)D&D was never a RPG all that suited to role-playing. It just happened to dominate the market and it became the common language of the RPG world. What D&D is great for is video game role-playing (maybe ironic, certainly evidenced with Evercrack, et al), roll-playing, or whatever conveys the idea in one's mind best that the nature of the game is to achieve mechanical progression.
Start off weak, level up, power up, become strong. Reboot.
The people who played the game differently from this, i.e. looking at their characters as something besides numbers, were making do with the tools available. Unfortunately, only Wizards was clever enough to claim back the market with its OGL and make the RPG world all about the (new) D&D structure again.
I had extremely negative views toward the class/level system because I would play all of these other systems at cons that captured fiction genres so much better. But, then it became clear that what you want in a one shot like a con game and what you want in a campaign are very different. Progression is fairly meaningless in con games; there's living campaigns, of course. Character evolution, especially improvement, should be found in campaigns. Now, I still get annoyed when players' only goals are to power up their characters since they could just play WoW if that's all that interests them, but I completely understand the idea of "What do I do with these EPs/at next level?"
With Conan, it doesn't bother me that it uses D20 since that's about the only way we would have enough players to play. It doesn't seem particularly illfitting as some other genre might (Eternal Champion comes to mind as something that doesn't fit as well). I'm thankful that it does attempt to capture the genre where D&D is just a game about D&D. There are still numerous things that irritate me, of course, both because of the D20 core system and the obvious imbalances. But, they don't bother the others, so we don't house rule them to death.
Sutek
Mongoose
Ichabod said:
In my opinion, yes, but in a sublte way. The more pre=generated paths to character types provided to the players without thier needing to either work it out for themselves, concoct cool stuff on thier own or with thier GM, or push the limits of the basics, the less actual role playing people are really doing. In essence, I feel that continual loads of prestige and base classes beyond the core ones takes a need out of role playing that I grew up figuring out on my own back in the original D&D days: If it doesn't exist, figure it out.
The most interesting characters I ever played had less of a class/prestige class sculpt than they did just a concept that I developed over the course of that character's career. It wasn't about which stat/skill/feat block or path I was working towards as much as it was inventing the path as I went.
That's what I consider true role playing - not a formulaic glomming together of chunks based solely on pre-requisites.
VincentDarlage said:
Vincent,
Sorry you didn't care for the Healer or Gladiator. Your objections are well-thought and insightful. I'm certainly using your analysis of my article to improve what I write in the future.
(Although, I have few other things in queue at S&P, which, based on your study of the Healer and Gladiator, you will most certainly not like.
)The high quality and volume of your work for the Conan RPG has always impressed me. I'm grateful you took the time to read my stuff.
Thanks.
Stefen
kintire said:
I found that was the case. Hence the Healer class.
kintire said:
That's so an incapacitated character not only stabilizes, but also gains enough hp to regain consciousness and take actions. I considered making the benefit greater -- d6, d10, d12 -- but in play this came over as too much like a cleric.
That's also the reason I made the healing dependent on the recipient's Con modifier. It seemed intuitive that tougher characters in Conan would be able to recover from wounds more often and more quickly than weaker characters. With magical healing this isn't the case. An unlimited ability to repair damage would have made the healer a Conan-cleric. I thought it more in keeping with the milieu if there was only so much a healer could do to help someone seriously injured.
kintire said:
You're not missing anything. Combat in Conan is dangerous and deadly. No last minute spells to save characters. No matter how skilled someone is at triage, they're not going to save a person who has taken three full-on shots from a sword. The Healer wasn't meant to save PCs from such incidents, just allow them to recover enough hitpoints to make it out alive.
Thanks for your comments!
Thats a design decision that I can agree with. But in that case, you are either going to have to clarify that the Healer is an NPC class, or give them something else to do. As things stand, you have decided that healing in the Conan world will be very weak, and then produced a class solely devoted to healing. Result: the class is very weak.
The problem here is that there doesn't seem to be a clear role for what the healer will actually do. It appears that the healer will do nothing to influence combat and has no significant out of combat role either. It seems to be limited to shortening the downtime because you have a healer. What will the player be doing when the game is actually on?
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
kintire said:
That is why I think some of the abilities of that class would have worked better as feats; that way, a player could still be a borderer, scholar, or whatever, and just have some training in Healing. Maybe make certain ranks in Heal the prerequisite for the feat.
sidkfjjteidlkkf
Mongoose
In all I think the classes in Conan work fine as they are. Choose the right multi-classing, skills and feats, and you can play what you want.
