Ground Weapons VS Starships

[Jeraa]

A armored ship can withstand that kind of punishment. A micro-meteor does 12 damage max. So 12 points of armor should stop it. 12 points of armor requires 10% of your ship if bonded superdense, down to 30% of your ship for titanium steel.

 

[rust]

As Jeraa already mentioned, the spaceship operation encounter table
lists micrometeorites, and according to the description there this type
of collision either causes 2d6 damage or destroys the ship, so accor-
ding to the core rules the hull cannot be impenetrable.

 

[apoc527]

In addition to Jeraa's and barnest2's excellent points, the "rules of Traveller" as written contradict your position.

Please see Core Rules, pg 106. Others have pointed it out before, but the self-sealing hull option SPECIFICALLY states that it "automatically repairs minor breaches such as micrometeoroid impacts..."

QED

Edit: And rust's post too.

 

[DFW]

That's my point. If Traveller is supposed to represent harder sci-fi (where Star Wars is like a raw egg), then how can we believe in DFW's position, no matter how many times he restates it?

It isn't my position. It is the position of the rules. Are you intentionally ignoring that to attempt aggravate or do you REALLY not understand the rules as written and basic physics?

 

[DFW]

[I just think your assumptions are way, way off.

Which assumptions exactly? Basic physics? That Trav ships are designed so that they aren't destroyed and crew killed due to interplanetary travel?

Which one(s)?

 

[Jeraa]

DFW, cite your source. Where in the rules does it specifically say a ship is armored to prevent damage by micro meteors?

I have already cited several sources that specifically say the opposite. No where does it say, or even imply, a ship can withstand micrometeor impacts. Several locations mention micro-meteors damaging the ship. (the encounter table, the self-sealing armor option)

 

[DFW]

Please see Core Rules, pg 106. Others have pointed it out before, but the self-sealing hull option SPECIFICALLY states that it "automatically repairs minor breaches such as micrometeoroid impacts..."

Yes, those that are large enough to penetrate the hull. So? Are you saying that a small craft traveling at interstellar speed can OR cannot withstand those impacts?

Simple question....

 

[DFW]

DFW, cite your source. Where in the rules does it specifically say a ship is armored to prevent damage by micro meteors?

The interplanetary travel rules. UNLESS, you think that those aren't the rules used to figure interplanetary travel.

If so, cite YOUR source.

 

[hdan]

A fast, small craft going from Earth to an outer planet has to be able to withstand at least 20,976,400,000 joules in case of micro-meteor hit. Or, ~11 times as much kinetic energy.

Except that that micro-meteor is just going to punch a small-ish hole in one side and out the other of the ship, probably not giving up all of that energy, or for thin enough hulls, very little of that energy. Right?

IMTU:

Ships don't generally spend much time in interplanetary space - they burn out to the 100d limit and jump. The exceptions are ships stopping by at the local gas giant to refuel, but merchants can't usually afford the time to make that trip and still keep to their schedules. The lucky ones might have a delivery for a base on one of the GG's moons to help "pay" for the the trip, though any extended real-space journey is inherently more risky than jump travel.

For extended real-space journeys, I rely on a combination of navigation skill effect, armor and an inherent (but minor) space warping properties of the gravitic drive to keep the ship safe from minor space debris. (This same property is later refined into anti-missile repulsors, but any grav-capable ship's "lifter modules" do double duty as navigational repulsors.)

In well-charted systems, the danger of accidentally encountering a micro-meteor swarm is minimal, and modified by the player's navigation effect. (To be honest, I only check when the navigation effect is negative and the players are in a fairly uncharted system, Starport C or worse. Better star ports have nav beacons in the centers of known meteor showers.)

 

[barnest2]

Yes, those that are large enough to penetrate the hull. So? Are you saying that a small craft traveling at interstellar speed can OR cannot withstand those impacts?

Simple question....

Please, tell me where the qualification "those that are large enough" appears? because I just see micro-meteoroids...
A ship cannot withstand it without penetration, but will not be destroyed by one.

 

[Jeraa]

The interplanetary travel rules. UNLESS, you think that those aren't the rules used to figure interplanetary travel.

If so, cite YOUR source.

Cite a specific page as I have. The only place I can find in the entire Spacecraft Operations chapter that mentions micrometeors (or any other object encountered during travel) is the Encounters section. Where is specifically says a micrometer impact damages the hull, and does 2d6 damage.

 

[DFW]

Except that that micro-meteor is just going to punch a small-ish hole in one side and out the other of the ship, probably not giving up all of that energy, or for thin enough hulls, very little of that energy. Right?

No. If it can breach the hull it will vaporize part of it and cause a jet of superheated metal to spew into the the interior much like a non-explosive DU penetrator used against tanks. Also, anything moving that fast when it hits the atmosphere inside will cause the air to ignite explosively due to friction.

In short, if the Trav hulls don't stop those particles, every person and piece of equipment anywhere near the flight path inside the ship is destroyed.

So, the standard hulls either stop it or, interplanetary travel of any distance is, eventually suicidal. There is NO way around it other than to ignore it because it is inconvenient ot think about...

 

[DFW]

Cite a specific page as I have. The only place I can find in the entire Spacecraft Operations chapter that mentions micrometeors

Umm, read the interplanetary travel times. Do the math until you have an epiphany...

 

[DFW]

Please, tell me where the qualification "those that are large enough" appears? because I just see micro-meteoroids...
A ship cannot withstand it without penetration, but will not be destroyed by one.

I used 1/2 gram as an example. (not too large).

 

[rust]

Hmmm ... Out of curiosity I took a look at previous versions of Traveller
to see how they treated starship hulls, which might give an idea of the
original intention for the Traveller universe.

According to the Demolition Tables on page 103 of the Mega Traveller Re-
feree's Manual, 182 kg of conventional explosive are sufficient to breach
a TL 11 armour with an Armor Value of 30. If a shaped charge would be
used, 14 kg of explosive would breach that armour.

Now, Mega Traveller is not Mongoose Traveller, but to me this looks very
much like circumstancial evidence that starship hulls in the Traveller uni-
verse are not meant to be impenetrable.

 

[Jeraa]

I see the times. And I know the speeds involved. Yes, physics does say a ship would take massive damage if not be destroyed. However, this is a game. Not a real-world simulation. And the game says you are wrong. If you want something that models reality that closely, your in the wrong place.

And yes DFW, a micrometeor can destroy a small craft (95 tons or less). If it rolls average damage (resulting in 2 single hits). And if the first hit takes out the small crafts 1 hull point. And if the second hit takes out the small crafts 1 structure point. Thats a lot of ifs.

 

[DFW]

Now, Mega Traveller is not Mongoose Traveller, but to me this looks very
much like circumstancial evidence that starship hulls in the Traveller uni-
verse are not meant to be impenetrable.

Like I said, do interplanetary travel and do the math. I can't help it if the designers were horribly deficient in basic science & math.

If anyone has ANY science based opposition let me know. Physics is physics.
If you travel that fast and hit something as small as 1/2 gram, the impact energy is what it is. It isn't what one wishes it was.

 

[DFW]

I see the times. And I know the speeds involved. Yes, physics does say a ship would take massive damage if not be destroyed.

That's what I said. So, in order for it to not be destroyed, it has to have a hull strong enough to stop the particle.

See, that wasn't to hard to figure out was it?

 

[barnest2]

Now, Mega Traveller is not Mongoose Traveller, but to me this looks very
much like circumstancial evidence that starship hulls in the Traveller uni-
verse are not meant to be impenetrable.

Like I said, do interplanetary travel and do the math. I can't help it if the designers were horribly deficient in basic science & math.

If anyone has ANY science based opposition let me know. Physics is physics.
If you travel that fast and hit something as small as 1/2 gram, the impact energy is what it is. It isn't what one wishes it was.

Look, your right if you want to look just at the basic physics. But look, this is a sci-fi RPG, with FTL travel, reaction-less drives and enormous starships which don't have too worry about heat exchange. You just have to suspend your disbelief for that to work, otherwise, i ask the question
"Why don't your railguns melt with every shot, as they will struggle to cool in space" or similar...

 

[apoc527]

DFW, you are the one ignoring the rules as clearly stated. Instead, you are making a great many assumptions based off travel times and the resultant speed.

Your assumptions are not supported by the rules. No less than 4 posters have provided you with specific page cites, examples from previous editions, and simple logic to show you this.

The simple structure of the hull could easily deal with any non-significantly sized chunk of space debris through Whipple-style shielding or the TL10+ equivalent. Any larger chunk is to be avoided or atomized. You don't even need a field effect (though props to hdan for one if the most internally consistent explanations yet).

Without gobs of personal suppositions, where do the rules state that micrometeoroids present such a deadly threat? (the rules already have potential impacts doing 2d6--as much as a nuke!)