Grizzly Weapon options

[Makoto]

My bad on the multihit - it does matter only in targets, in kills every model is hit, no matter what caused the breach.

However:
It still means that large unit surfaces faster and not split up (6 warriors on average compared to the usuall 5). Moreover MI cannot jump back in second action, as they're not prepared, and can't jump as a reaction. If there's another marker nearby they''ve just got royally screwed. It also saves the bugs full turn of digging up (mayor difference even in PL3 vs PL3), and reaction fired on units emerging piecemeal (extremely frustrating for the bugs, seen few players giving up such an attack just because initial vawe got too shot up), not to mention giving them an extra tunnel entrance.
It gets even worse with a tanker - it won't get killed in one run, so even if thebreach was done by a protagonist officer he'll end up about 23" away from the hole top. That means not even 20" from the tanker, so the creature does move+fire... and it's one less valuable officer on table. Unit won't have the protagonist, so it'll get charged twice, or shot and charged.

As for camouflaged entrances - as soon as bugs begin the head towards them MI is notified where they are. Within certain approximation, obviously, but knows, so nine times out of ten there's no need to keep standing next to them.

 

[tneva82]

what are the chances that the tanker/brain/whatever won't be near warriors/some other reacting thinigies?

That would of course depend on how well you have shot your targets before :lol:

Blast the warriors before leaping forward to do the coupe de grace(or whatever) to the tanker.

Thermal lance is specialised weapon but that doesn't make it useless. It has ability to damage very high target/kill targets with high armour save. Tankers in cover, tunnel markers, tunnel entrances...You name it, it can hit it.

 

[Kenrick Dargoth]

. The thermal lance is a super weapon, it should be pretty hard to field them, if you didn't have a difficult choice to make when using them, they'd be too powerful

I've got something better; neural beemers. They are much better than TL.

 

[Mr Evil]

me thinks some people need to invest in books befor figs.

its like buying a car with no driving licience, not the best use of money.

 

[JoseDominguez]

My bad on the multihit - it does matter only in targets, in kills every model is hit, no matter what caused the breach.

However:
It still means that large unit surfaces faster and not split up (6 warriors on average compared to the usuall 5). Moreover MI cannot jump back in second action, as they're not prepared, and can't jump as a reaction. If there's another marker nearby they''ve just got royally screwed. It also saves the bugs full turn of digging up (mayor difference even in PL3 vs PL3), and reaction fired on units emerging piecemeal (extremely frustrating for the bugs, seen few players giving up such an attack just because initial vawe got too shot up), not to mention giving them an extra tunnel entrance.
It gets even worse with a tanker - it won't get killed in one run, so even if thebreach was done by a protagonist officer he'll end up about 23" away from the hole top. That means not even 20" from the tanker, so the creature does move+fire... and it's one less valuable officer on table. Unit won't have the protagonist, so it'll get charged twice, or shot and charged.

As for camouflaged entrances - as soon as bugs begin the head towards them MI is notified where they are. Within certain approximation, obviously, but knows, so nine times out of ten there's no need to keep standing next to them.

Breach a marker and it comes up in your turn, then you have everything else in range open up on it. I can't see how a dead tanker next to a smoking crater can possibly be less desirable than a live one in the tunnel marker it's player bought for it. A model may be unable to get away from it as you've said, but so what, the tanker won't be there to get an action.
Tankers only have 6 hits, they aren't that much of a worry once above ground...... plus once forced up they take a D10 hit, which is a kill on a 7 plus (no saves) so it has a fair chance of being down to 4 anyway. That's not even going to worry cap troopers with javelins (holepunch). And pathfinders will take them down even quicker (D10+1 accurate reaver missile).
You also mention that the MI can't jump back in the second action..... but they shouldn't need to. Ready then jump and fire. You can move within range then jump back out again all in one action... as long as you don't go over 12" (15 for the exos) that means you won't end up swarmed by warriors. And like I've said, tankers shouldn't survive long enough to get an action in their own turn. You might even lose a trooper or two in the process, but that's on your own terms, rather than letting him pick where he comes up.
Sounds to me like your bug players just aren't taking advantage of tunneling assets properly.... how can you tell where a camo entrance is? You are able to move away from or towards any tunnel entrance, I always have a bug hole on my back line, it's handy when you need to turn a unit around or hide a brain bug. So everything is moving directly away from that one, every turn as long as it's heading up the board. Barring that, put an exposed entrance at the other end of the board and pretend to move towards that. I'd advise your bug players to re-read the tunneling rules though. Tunneling markers can even move towards/away from other tunneling markers. With a bit of thought there is no need to give away the location of a camo exit at all.
Same for your bug players losing units as they emerge piecemeal from a tunnel entrance..... serves them right for emerging in reaction range but not at PBR. Every now and again I like to throw in some burrower/hoppers. Best laid plans of the MI collapse when a marker stops 12" away to reveal a camo exit, and 5 hoppers charge in rip up the caps and then fly back out of reaction range (coordinate for a 3rd action). Keeps the MI on their toes though That's one of the reasons that breaching tunnel markers is a good thing..... every now and again it turns out to be something really sneaky (or even a brain if you're lucky).

 

[Makoto]

how can you tell where a camo entrance is?
Basic geometry - as soon as bugs use it, it's area is revealed, even if just approximately within a line. And if the move sideways towards other markers? Even better for MI, they're wasting time, or (even better yet) not using a resource they've spend an equivalent of almost 4 warriors (carrion) on.

Best laid plans of the MI collapse when a marker stops 12" away to reveal a camo exit
Good plan, but seems MI in Your area fail to take advantage of their traits - with both sense presence and stay frosty average reaction range goes to 15,5", making such plans very fragile, and even thinking about prepping an assault out of the reaction range becomes extremely difficult for the bugs.

As You can see it all depends on approach

 

[JoseDominguez]

Have a close look at the tunneling rules:
You can never spot a camo entrance with a decent bug player (unless you buy a lot of pathfinder k9 and waist lots of actions)..... any tunnel move can be made towards or away from a tunnel marker or tunnel entrance. So, just place two markers, move the first away from the second in any direction you want, then move the second towards the first, that way, two markers can move straight up the battlefield using each other as 'tunnel network'. Or, as I do place a tunnel exit at my end of the board, then all moves can be claimed as being away from it. You don't need to use your camo exits at all for underground movement until you need to surface of course. Bear in mind that if the MI move off the line you are travelling, you can often shepherd them towards a camo exit (as they assume it must be on the line you are travelling), as long as it's within 18" warriors can still reach it and surface under you in one turn (coordinate). PLace the camo exits on the left and right flanks and move up the middle, sooner or later someone will jump right on top of a camo exit.
As for sense presence etc.... doesn't alter my point at all. What I am saying is leaving a bug tunnel marker intact when you could breach it is usually a bad idea.... take the hopper example. If you leave that marker it can surface and take just about anything down. Blow it and every hopper takes a D10 hit, no saves and doesn't get to make it's jump in anyway.
What would you prefer? 5 hoppers hit by a collapsing tunnel and taking a D10 hit each. Or five hoppers still hiding down a hole waiting to jump on you who you might get to react against?
Definite kills and revealed models vs the chance of taking some out after they've attacked you? And remember Exos (which was the main focus of this) are multihit so they can't swap out in close combat, the hoppers only need take out the sixguns and there's no reaction anyway. (or take the officer and sense presence, stay frosty etc... become irrelevant.
Leaving tunnel markers allows a bug player lots of options. Once they are blown it limits any sneaky tricks the bug player was planning.

And there's a fatal flaw in relying on extended reaction ranges to take out hoppers etc...(In my example I sited a 12" charge and jump back as that's how far they can move and still get back behind cover, not out of reaction range) in this case the hoppers jump in from a hole, then jump back behind it, it's size 4 so you won't be able to see them anyway. Not much you can do about it, other than breach the markers before the bugs get close enough to try it. Maybe your bug players don't appreciate their tunnel assets? A unit that jumps in can't be shot if it can get behind cover.

All depends on your approach.

 

[Makoto]

There's one extremely large flaw in that argument: bugs use up an action to surface, it's not a free thing. So in given hopper example (provided their marker is already touching the entrance) it's:
1st action: surface (getting reaction fire)
2nd action: ready (another reaction volley)
3rd action (coordinated) flyby (if any hoppers of the five are still alive by this point)

Also the mentioned marker won't move in any direction - only in straight line away from the other marker, so You just end up moving diagonally over the table. Suits the MI fine, as it usually means bugs have to cover about twice as much ground (= use twice as many actions) while just traveling, again - that's an extreme advantage for humans.
Also placing the entrance at bug edge ties up 50 points in, well, inefficient way - exactly the same thing can be achieved at half the price, You'll want a stationary marker with the brain anyway. Plus the brain can be moved, allowing some limited variety for the line assault markers are moving.

Although all in all against half decent MI player camoed entrance is still just one that cannot be immediately shot at.

Most importantly - what do You prefer, taking pot shots with any heavy firepower at a marker that can turn out to contain 5 warriors and while surfacing will take heavy loses to reactions anyway, or shooting some other, certain target with much better chance of dealing damage?

 

[JoseDominguez]

With a couple of tunnel assets, you can move anywhere, just like tacking in a yacht, doesn't matter which direction the wind is blowing, you just zig zag along.

As for surfacing hoppers...... you do it behind a wall, tree or any size 2 cover, that means no reaction fire. Failing cover..... just pop five workers in front of them.
You don't even have to do it that often, the knowledge that you could makes an MI player nervous about getting within a foot of cover.

And your last comment..... what would I rather shoot at? Well five warrior bugs who's marker is left alone and get into combat will rip apart most MI units. And remember, destroyed tunnel assests are worth double VPS, so a blown tunnel marker is worth the points of the models killed plus 100. (then the marker is recycled, you can score those points again).
Also, if you commonly face tunnel markers with only five bugs in them, I think your bug players need a rethink.
Do you use much cover in your games? This is a big issue for bug players, markers let you get up the board, but without cover they aren't as effective. (forests are a bugs best friend).
That tunnel marker with 5 bugs in it you leave alone may get close enough to surface under a unit, that unit will be torn up. What if you've misjudged and that's a tanker? Or control bugs?
Or do your bug players move their warriors 6" underground all of the time? That's a giveaway, we tend to move everything 5" and leave it unclear until the round they move in to attack. Yes it slows them down a little, but at least everyone sticks together.
I'd love it if some of our players ignored tunnel markers and didn't try to breach them, but they've all realised how devastating a D10 no save shot on everything is. Plus a surface tanker is a lot easier to kill.

And remember the exit on your side doesn't need to be at the board edge, just behind your advancing markers. It's a good place for a nest too, it allows lots of tunnel movement but also means hoppers can enter from it on the hop, that lets them move 24" into combat and attack, hopefully retreating to cover before reaction, couple that with coordinate and they can actually do it again. So that's two lots of 24" movement with close combat on the way (as they may enter with special movement). Ever had that one pulled on you? Our players would never leave a tunnel marker they could breach. Most bug shock tactics or clever strategies rely on them. But we've obviously got vastly different gaming groups. I think your opinion would change if you had some really sneaky tunnelers

 

[Vegabond]

me thinks some people need to invest in books befor figs.

its like buying a car with no driving licience, not the best use of money.

That's good advice, but when your on a budget you have to make choices.

Also since the books will be revamped and re-released in the near future, why buy it twice?

 

[JoseDominguez]

then wait to play as everything is being revamped
If you want to play SST not SST evo, then get it now.
It's even cheaper online anyway.
If a couple of mongoose rulebooks are out of your budget, I wouldn't recommend wargaming as a hobby

 

[The Legend]

The Atlas rig allows the Exosuit to fire both weapons with one shoot action and so does have a point.

Probably just me being blind but apart from the Firestorm I really cannot find a reference to the Grizzly being able to fire two weapons in a shoot action. Where is this passege in the MI book?

 

[Poko]

it's not, it was added in the FAQ/army update(S&P37 or so)(lack of that rule was a typo it seems)

 

[The Legend]

Cheers. It seemed a bit rediculous that they couldn't fire two sixguns together but I just couldn't find a reference.

 

[DAWGIE]

WELL, the statement about "your budget" smacked a bit of old fashion wargamer elitism (spelling?).


there are a lot of kids, teenagers, and students, STILL, who find money tight and have to decide exactly what they want to buy and budget for it.


as well as married gamers with families.


folks who have serious and ery expensive medical emergencies, or unexpected deaths in their families who suddenly find themselves on a wargame budget that is smaller than they were used to having.

and then there are disability retirees like myself. i have sooo much money set aside each month for wargames purchases, so, i pick and chose what i want carefully.


example NR 1 being that i purchased a squad of PATHFINDERS, and a squad of PATHFINDERS w/NEO DOGS, without owning the PATHFINDER book, when i first eyeballed them _because_ the toys looked neat, and the MOS definition published for them looked very useful. plans were to pick up the PATHFINDER BOOK next purchase.

well did not work that way: an unforseen and terminal illness in the family pushed toy thoughts and buying into the sometime in the future, _maybe_ category. i very nice gamer who read my questions about PATHFINDERS and the reason i did not have said book, kindly sent me one of his own as a gift.

example NR 2 being my own recent purchases of three (3) GRIZZLY and four (4) COUGAR exo armors. i do not have the MI booklet, and have played along very happily with just the basic M4s, M8s, M9s, and BUGS. i like the CGI M4 powersuits/M8/M9 MARAUDERSS, but, to me, these are not RAH SST powered armors. the COUGARS and GRIZZLYS are close cousins, though! i decided to field three (3) five (5) bod squads of exo-armor troopers.


not a clue as to how they were armed/organized officially by MONGOOSE for SST, so i went with the five (5) bod minimum thing for my exo-armor troopers.

a. four (4) COUGARS w/ rotary barrel guns, and "a laser finger" for the power fist that was not toting the rotary barrel cannon. i went with the "stats" for the under-barrel laser fitted to MORITAS for this weapon. the COUGARS are the "riflemen" of my exo-armor squads

b. one (1) GRIZZLY w/two (2) rotary barrel canons and two (2) rocket launcher packs mounted on the shoulders. one powered gaunltet is fitted with a "laser finger" as above, too. the big GRIZZLY exo-armor is now the fire-support element of each exo-armor squads.


these are the first SST purchases i have made in months, and i wanted them before they vanish into "the warp" or WETFO due to the planned new deal of BE/SST releases. now since i play both SST and 5150, i figured that if my armament configuration was wrong for SST, i would just ignor the shoulder mounted rocket launcher packs and go wtih rotary barrel cannons on the GRIZZLYS, telling my oppoent to disregard the RLs.in 5150, i could use the exo-armors as i wanted to with no problem.



point being, i am damned sure that MONGOOSE is glad to see anyone interested enough in their products spend actual money on them.


regardless of their "budget".


just some thoughts from an aulde fart.

DAWGIE

 

[JoseDominguez]

WELL, the statement about "your budget" smacked a bit of old fashion wargamer elitism (spelling?).


there are a lot of kids, teenagers, and students, STILL, who find money tight and have to decide exactly what they want to buy and budget for it.


as well as married gamers with families.


folks who have serious and ery expensive medical emergencies, or unexpected deaths in their families who suddenly find themselves on a wargame budget that is smaller than they were used to having.

and then there are disability retirees like myself. i have sooo much money set aside each month for wargames purchases, so, i pick and chose what i want carefully.


example NR 1 being that i purchased a squad of PATHFINDERS, and a squad of PATHFINDERS w/NEO DOGS, without owning the PATHFINDER book, when i first eyeballed them _because_ the toys looked neat, and the MOS definition published for them looked very useful. plans were to pick up the PATHFINDER BOOK next purchase.

well did not work that way: an unforseen and terminal illness in the family pushed toy thoughts and buying into the sometime in the future, _maybe_ category. i very nice gamer who read my questions about PATHFINDERS and the reason i did not have said book, kindly sent me one of his own as a gift.

example NR 2 being my own recent purchases of three (3) GRIZZLY and four (4) COUGAR exo armors. i do not have the MI booklet, and have played along very happily with just the basic M4s, M8s, M9s, and BUGS. i like the CGI M4 powersuits/M8/M9 MARAUDERSS, but, to me, these are not RAH SST powered armors. the COUGARS and GRIZZLYS are close cousins, though! i decided to field three (3) five (5) bod squads of exo-armor troopers.


not a clue as to how they were armed/organized officially by MONGOOSE for SST, so i went with the five (5) bod minimum thing for my exo-armor troopers.

a. four (4) COUGARS w/ rotary barrel guns, and "a laser finger" for the power fist that was not toting the rotary barrel cannon. i went with the "stats" for the under-barrel laser fitted to MORITAS for this weapon. the COUGARS are the "riflemen" of my exo-armor squads

b. one (1) GRIZZLY w/two (2) rotary barrel canons and two (2) rocket launcher packs mounted on the shoulders. one powered gaunltet is fitted with a "laser finger" as above, too. the big GRIZZLY exo-armor is now the fire-support element of each exo-armor squads.


these are the first SST purchases i have made in months, and i wanted them before they vanish into "the warp" or WETFO due to the planned new deal of BE/SST releases. now since i play both SST and 5150, i figured that if my armament configuration was wrong for SST, i would just ignor the shoulder mounted rocket launcher packs and go wtih rotary barrel cannons on the GRIZZLYS, telling my oppoent to disregard the RLs.in 5150, i could use the exo-armors as i wanted to with no problem.



point being, i am damned sure that MONGOOSE is glad to see anyone interested enough in their products spend actual money on them.


regardless of their "budget".


just some thoughts from an aulde fart.

DAWGIE

My point was: If you can't afford a rulebook, then you can't really wargame. (the book being the cheapest investment you'll need to make).
Pretty simple really, if you can't afford rulebooks, then you can't play the game.
Nothing elitist about that is there....... the rulebook is basic equipment.

I'll put it another way, if someone feels that taking part in a hobby is possible without the most basic of requirements, then please, for God's sake, never, ever take up skydiving.


You can always proxy miniatures until you can afford the proper ones, but you can't play the game without the rulebooks.
You listed your recent purchases...... costing a lot more than the rulebook and also a great deal more than most students etc.. could afford on their budgets.

Anyway, you missed my point entirely, it's simple really, if a rule book that costs less than the cheapest SST box set is out of someones price range then wargaming is going to be a prohibitively expensive hobby for them isn't it? E.g. if you really wanted the MI rulebook now, then couldn't purchasing one of the exo units have been delayed?
If you truly couldn't have afforded the book, then you couldn't have bought any minis either, could you? Like your example earlier.... you had no money due to a familly situation..... could you afford to buy anything for wargaming?

You, yourself said, that you couldn't buy the pathfinder book and hadn't purchased any SST stuff for a while. Or to put it another way....... 'you couldn't afford to wargame'.

Not elitist, just realistic. I was a student myself, my wargaming had to go on the back burner for five years (Biomed followed by teacher training). I couldn't afford to wargame at all (not to mention the time constraints).



Your questions were about unit set up, you didn't want to mess up the models you had bought before you had the book..... no one had a problem with that, it's sensible and caters to players who've bought a model because it looked really cool but aren't sure of how it fits into an army. Posters were complaining about the numerous posts by players asking for rules and statistics so they didn't have to buy the rules. Why should one player spend money on a rulebook then give the information so someone else can afford to buy more models????? (not to mention the copywright theft from mongoose).
Anyway, the new edition has the stats included with models, so that should be sorted now.

So, if you wish to accuse me of elitism, then please explain how someone who can't work a book available online for $10.47 into their budget can afford to buy miniatures?

 

[DAWGIE]

good morning! <:O)

one. i was able to get both boxes of exo armors for a very reasonable price, and i did so w/o hesitation. i did want to get the toys before they vanish into the warp never to be seen again. <:O)

two. i did not want to buy a MONGOOSE rule book that for i know is going to be useless in a few months. <:O(

three. i mostly game using THWG 5150 sci fi skirmish rules, and i already had a nice set of those at my place. these rules work quite well for SST games vs BUGS or SKINNIES. <:O)

four. see three above. money spent on obsolete rulebooks is better spent acquiring toys that i would like to add to my MONGOOSE CGI SST, BUG, and SKINNIE toys. the obsolete rule books can be picked up later when my money situation returns to normal. <:O)


WAY BACK WHEN . . .

i was once a student, and held down a full time job in law enforcement, too, way back in the 70s. plus i had an active single social life. i made good money, and could pretty much get into wotever i wanted to. acquiring a family did cut back on my wargaming time and funds, but with wife, kids and dog at home, i did not consider this to be a handicap at all. <:O)


i guess i am a product of the times; back then wargamer folks shared rule sets with friends who could not afford them (or gave them as gifts), did not game with unpainted toys, and tended to help folks just getting into wargaming, or a genre out by providing support for them. all the newbie had to do was buy the toys when he/she could- and of course, the then current practice of being given loaner table top commands of less than stellar troops, did kinda put some zip into your step when it came to fielding your own toys . <:O)


of course all was not rosey, then, just like all is not rosey now. we had our share of jerks and idiots to keep things "interesting" on the tabletop, plus, a several sets of rules (WRG ANCIENTS, various editions, come immediately to mind) that would age a person prematurely and could/did cause folks to toss the whole wargamer hobby thing in disgust. <:O(


i tend to want to assist new gamers, getting into the hobby, or into a new genre as much as i am able to do so. painting help, modeling help, loaner toys while theirs are "under construction", loaning out rules for them to read, helping them to understand the game, etc. <:O)


and not to discourage them with "SORRY KID! YOU DO NOT HAVE THE DOSH TO PLAY THE GAME! SHOVE OFF AND DO NOT TAKE UP AT THE TABLE OR BOG DOWN _MY_ TIME AT THE TABLE WITH YOUR LAME EFFORTS AT PLAYING!" <:O(

new gamers, whether they buy the whole she-bang at one whack or bits/pieces as their money allows, are the future of the wargaming hobby. <:O)

your opinion about lacking funds to "play the game" maybe be valid among a lot of folks, but, it is not one i have ever shared or share now. <:O)

if a person, child, teenager, or adult, male/female WANTS TO TAKE PART in our hobby, act civilized, and asks for help, i say it is to the benefit of us all that established gamers assist them as much as possible!
<:O)

DAWGIE, auld fart gamer . . . <:O)

 

[DAWGIE]

good morning! <:O)

one. i was able to get both boxes of exo armors for a very reasonable price, and i did so w/o hesitation. i did want to get the toys before they vanish into the warp never to be seen again. <:O)

two. i did not want to buy a MONGOOSE rule book that for i know is going to be useless in a few months. <:O(

three. i mostly game using THWG 5150 sci fi skirmish rules, and i already had a nice set of those at my place. these rules work quite well for SST games vs BUGS or SKINNIES. <:O)

four. see three above. money spent on obsolete rulebooks is better spent acquiring toys that i would like to add to my MONGOOSE CGI SST, BUG, and SKINNIE toys. the obsolete rule books can be picked up later when my money situation returns to normal. <:O)


WAY BACK WHEN . . .

i was once a student, and held down a full time job in law enforcement, too, way back in the 70s. plus i had an active single social life. i made good money, and could pretty much get into wotever i wanted to. acquiring a family did cut back on my wargaming time and funds, but with wife, kids and dog at home, i did not consider this to be a handicap at all. <:O)


i guess i am a product of the times; back then wargamer folks shared rule sets with friends who could not afford them (or gave them as gifts), did not game with unpainted toys, and tended to help folks just getting into wargaming, or a genre out by providing support for them. all the newbie had to do was buy the toys when he/she could- and of course, the then current practice of being given loaner table top commands of less than stellar troops, did kinda put some zip into your step when it came to fielding your own toys . <:O)


of course all was not rosey, then, just like all is not rosey now. we had our share of jerks and idiots to keep things "interesting" on the tabletop, plus, a several sets of rules (WRG ANCIENTS, various editions, come immediately to mind) that would age a person prematurely and could/did cause folks to toss the whole wargamer hobby thing in disgust. <:O(


i tend to want to assist new gamers, getting into the hobby, or into a new genre as much as i am able to do so. painting help, modeling help, loaner toys while theirs are "under construction", loaning out rules for them to read, helping them to understand the game, etc. <:O)


and not to discourage them with "SORRY KID! YOU DO NOT HAVE THE DOSH TO PLAY THE GAME! SHOVE OFF AND DO NOT TAKE UP AT THE TABLE OR BOG DOWN _MY_ TIME AT THE TABLE WITH YOUR LAME EFFORTS AT PLAYING!" <:O(

new gamers, whether they buy the whole she-bang at one whack or bits/pieces as their money allows, are the future of the wargaming hobby. <:O)

your opinion about lacking funds to "play the game" maybe be valid among a lot of folks, but, it is not one i have ever shared or share now. <:O)

if a person, child, teenager, or adult, male/female WANTS TO TAKE PART in our hobby, act civilized, and asks for help, i say it is to the benefit of us all that established gamers assist them as much as possible!
<:O)

DAWGIE, auld fart gamer . . . <:O)

 

[JoseDominguez]

Again, missing my point.
I'm simply saying that wargaming is an expensive hobby.
If you can't afford a book, then buying minis is going to be difficult.

Can you argue with that?
If $10 is a lot of money, then a wargaming army is going to be next to impossible to get hold of.

We have a regular group of eight, we've got an 'all options' SST force that three of us bought (200 warriors, 3 tankers, king tanker, 30 hoppers, 3 plasma, etc.... MI, pathfinders, marauders, exos.. etc.....). The group uses our stuff (in excess of £800) as two are students and one is unemployed. So we fund the gaming for the rest of our group. We did it this way to avoid the 'loaner army of sucky crap' that most new players get saddled with. We have six shelves of SST models that allow the two sides to field just about anything they want, it was the only way to stop the inevitable arms race where the player with most disposable income has an advantage.

Basically, three of my group CAN'T AFFORD TO WARGAME. We provide them the means to join in.

Am I still being elitist?

So, my point is 'Wargaming is an expensive hobby'. Not that players with no money shouldn't be allowed to game (When did I say that). If you don't have the money, then you are at a decided disadvantage to those who have (look at the success of bug armies... very expensive to field a really good one in comparison to an MI force)

My point about rulebooks stands..... why should material that mongoose have produced be given away free? It's copyright theft, pure and simple. Why doesn't one player buy the rulebook then scan it in for the rest of us?
Get together with a few friends and buy a rulebook, support the game, we buy two copies of each rulebook between us, they get handed around the group. Now with the PDF ones available it's even cheaper.

So, just so I know, how does a player who can't afford a $10 book go about buying a wargame army? The three players in my group who can't afford their own stuff are really interested.

 

[DAWGIE]

ACTUALLY, i did not say anything about sanctioning theft of intellectual properties . . .


what i said/or should have said was that the rulebooks bought by myself and other players were loaned out as needed so that folks without one could read the rules for themselves.

my money, my rulebook. i could loan it to anyone who wanted to read it it that could not afford to buy one. hell, since i bought it, i could use if for toilet paper or firestarter and nary another soul has kakky to say about it.


ditto with my toys. i could loan some to who ever needed them without making them feel like a pauper, or a second class gamer.


in fact, pretty much like your group apparently does, we (the ones that could afford extras) bought them so they would be availalble for a gamer without toys of his/her own, who was trying to decide exactly what they wanted to play with, or for some one to use while they were buying/preping their own stuff for tabletop action.


i do understand your point of view about wargaming being an expensive hobby, but, i do not go so far as to say "if ya cannae afford it, ye should nae be doing this for a hobby".

i believe in giving anyone a helping hand that needs one, BUT, shame on "them" if i find out "they" have been abusing my, or another person's assistance!

from that point own, whatever the endeavor, if the abuser was to burst into spontaneous combustion, i would nae pee on them to douse the flames!


in fact, i might actively search out some fuel to expedite the burning process . . .


JOSE, this has been a nice, civilized discussion and i think we might have more in common than i originally thought when i read your first message.


<:O) nary a cyberspace GLASGOW KISS exhanged or even attempted! how very refreshing! <:O)


DAWGIE