Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Greg Smith said:
Reckon so, doing it before doesn't help much :wink:
Gorn Fleet - Comments Welcomed
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Reckon so, doing it before doesn't help much :wink:
WickedLance
Mongoose
Comparing Drones to Plasma is fair in most ways, but not in another. As is, if someone spends their fleet phasers shooting down Plasma, then that Plasma race is in trouble next turn as they have to reload their weapons. This means those Phasers will be used for inflicting damage the following turn.
Spending your fleet phasers to shoot down drones has to happen every turn against a drone heavy list. This impacts Plasma races defending against that doubly hard, as that means 1/2 their weapons are on defensive duty while the other half only fires every other turn.
I like the idea of having Drones roll to hit at distances. I also like the idea of giving them the ADD rule of "on a 1 they run out" kind of deal. It does make them a more tactical weapon: long-range bombardment or saved for up-close burst fire like Plasma.
Spending your fleet phasers to shoot down drones has to happen every turn against a drone heavy list. This impacts Plasma races defending against that doubly hard, as that means 1/2 their weapons are on defensive duty while the other half only fires every other turn.
I like the idea of having Drones roll to hit at distances. I also like the idea of giving them the ADD rule of "on a 1 they run out" kind of deal. It does make them a more tactical weapon: long-range bombardment or saved for up-close burst fire like Plasma.
AdmiralGrafSpee
Mongoose
On turn modes -
Instead of throwing out lumbering all together, I'd be more in favour of:
-Dropping it from all ships that have a turn of 6" (SFB Turn Mode D)
-For ships with a turn of 9" - change it to turn of 6" with lumbering (SFB Turn mode E or worse)
I think turn 9" is a problem as it doesn't make sense for ships that have speed reduced to 6" because of power drain or are cloaked.
-Tim
Instead of throwing out lumbering all together, I'd be more in favour of:
-Dropping it from all ships that have a turn of 6" (SFB Turn Mode D)
-For ships with a turn of 9" - change it to turn of 6" with lumbering (SFB Turn mode E or worse)
I think turn 9" is a problem as it doesn't make sense for ships that have speed reduced to 6" because of power drain or are cloaked.
-Tim
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
OK, tried out a game with Captain Jonah's suggestions added to Matt's changes. Maybe not the best test, since terrain placement and some really crappy dice rolling went against the furbags.
Kzinti vs Gorn: 1000-pt Annihilation scenario
Using MS's proposed rules (no Lumbering, Drones roll to hit over 16" with penalty > 1/2 range) plus CJ's Drone Ammo and remove Accurate vs Plasma changes.
Kzinti Fleet: 2x BC, 4x DW (1000pts)
Gorn Fleet: CC, 2x CM, 3x BDD (1005pts)
Setup: 6'x4' table, three dust clouds on the left side from the table centre to the Kzinti side and two asteroid fields on the right edge from table centre to the Kzinti side.
Deployment: Gorn set up first, on the left to use the dust clouds as cover on approach (cruisers in the lead, destroyers behind). Kzinti set up in the middle to give them clearer lines of fire (destroyers leading).
Turn 1: Gorn win Initiative. Most Gorn vessels use All Power To Engines to close range while using the dust clouds as cover, while the Kzinti forgo SAs and manoeuvre for Drone and Disruptor volleys. Forgot the Kzinti BCs were turn 4, so both were able to get a bead on one of the CMs, but two of the BDDs were able to cover it with IDF without exposing themselves to enemy fire. Gorn CM1 "Scything Tail" fired on the lead DW1 "Blue Comet", damaging it's engines, while the rest were either out of range or didn't have LOS. Both Kzinti BCs fired drones and disruptors at CM "Final Strike" at long range, with only 2 of the 8 drones reaching the target (only to be shot down) and BC1 losing an AD. The four Kzinti DWs opened up on CM2 (two at 14", the others 16-18") with only 1 of the 16 drones actually reaching it, mainly down to APTE dodging.
Turn 2: Kzinti win Initiative. The Gorn swing round towards the approaching Kzinti, cruisers going APTE. Kzinti BCs reverse while boosting shields while two of the DWs cover them and the other pair flank the enemy. BC2 "Galaxy" looked like it was going to be plasma bait with the CC "Tyranicon" and CM2 barrelling down on it, so it opened fire on the closest ship with everything it could bring to bear (scored a couple of criticals with shield bypasses, but did little more than drop it's shields to 10 pts). CM2 launched it's full load of torpedoes at it, dropping it's shields but only scoring a few damage points (fortunately it's shields were boosted to 35pts since only 1 of the 6 phasers covering it hit anything). BC1 then opened fire on CM2, causing several criticals, but it's drones were shot down by a BDD. Then the Gorn CC fired it's Plasma-S torpedoes and phasers (since it had terrain between it and any enemy yet to fire so didn't have to worry about defence) at the damaged BC and destroyed it. 1-nil to the lizards. The Kzinti DWs in turn took out CM2 with a cascade of critical hits (half fired from long range, with only 2 of the 7 drones hitting, and half of the other 8 autohitting drones were shot down by another BDD on IDF).
Turn 3: Kzinti win Initiative. The Gorn CC "Tyranicon" held position and reloaded it's torpedoes (it was fairly safe from enemy fire due to the surrounding dust clouds), while the remaining CM boosted shields and lined up on the enemy battlecruiser, with the BDDs supporting. With the Gorn ships now breaking cover, the Kzinti ships extended range to just within drone autohit distance (except for the BC, which had taken engine damage and couldn't quite outrun CM1). The two flanking DWs fired at the BDDs on IDF, but the dust cloud's effects spoofed half of them and all but one of the rest were stopped by ph-3s and tractor beams. CM1 unloaded it's torpedoes and half it's phasers into the Kzinti battlecruiser (which only hit the torpedoes with 2 of the 8 bearing phasers, although the plasma damage rolls were terrible so it only lost 10pts of shield plus the boosted points). The BC1 "Eclipse" and it's escorting DWs launched drones at CM1, the DW at 18" missing completely (and losing 2 AD of drones), one other was tractored and the 4AD that hit failed to get through CM1's boosted shield.
Turn 4: Gorn win Initiative. The Gorn CC goes APTE to catch the BC "Eclipse", with two of the BDDs on IDF (the other failed and, still having it's torpedoes, went after a damaged DW). The Kzinti battlecruiser still had engine damage and couldn't break away, so it again boosted shields while the DWs moved to cover it (2 made IDF rolls). Yet again, defensive fire from the Kzinti was pretty poor (not helped by one of the DWs on IDF having to fend off a BDD's torpedoes) and the CC's plasma dropped what was left of Eclipse's shields after the Gorn phasers had done their stuff and scored a number of criticals, crippling the ship and destroying the impulse drive. By now, most of the Kzinti DWs had lost half their drones and one was nearly crippled, so they decided to disengage.
Kzinti vs Gorn: 1000-pt Annihilation scenario
Using MS's proposed rules (no Lumbering, Drones roll to hit over 16" with penalty > 1/2 range) plus CJ's Drone Ammo and remove Accurate vs Plasma changes.
Kzinti Fleet: 2x BC, 4x DW (1000pts)
Gorn Fleet: CC, 2x CM, 3x BDD (1005pts)
Setup: 6'x4' table, three dust clouds on the left side from the table centre to the Kzinti side and two asteroid fields on the right edge from table centre to the Kzinti side.
Deployment: Gorn set up first, on the left to use the dust clouds as cover on approach (cruisers in the lead, destroyers behind). Kzinti set up in the middle to give them clearer lines of fire (destroyers leading).
Turn 1: Gorn win Initiative. Most Gorn vessels use All Power To Engines to close range while using the dust clouds as cover, while the Kzinti forgo SAs and manoeuvre for Drone and Disruptor volleys. Forgot the Kzinti BCs were turn 4, so both were able to get a bead on one of the CMs, but two of the BDDs were able to cover it with IDF without exposing themselves to enemy fire. Gorn CM1 "Scything Tail" fired on the lead DW1 "Blue Comet", damaging it's engines, while the rest were either out of range or didn't have LOS. Both Kzinti BCs fired drones and disruptors at CM "Final Strike" at long range, with only 2 of the 8 drones reaching the target (only to be shot down) and BC1 losing an AD. The four Kzinti DWs opened up on CM2 (two at 14", the others 16-18") with only 1 of the 16 drones actually reaching it, mainly down to APTE dodging.
Turn 2: Kzinti win Initiative. The Gorn swing round towards the approaching Kzinti, cruisers going APTE. Kzinti BCs reverse while boosting shields while two of the DWs cover them and the other pair flank the enemy. BC2 "Galaxy" looked like it was going to be plasma bait with the CC "Tyranicon" and CM2 barrelling down on it, so it opened fire on the closest ship with everything it could bring to bear (scored a couple of criticals with shield bypasses, but did little more than drop it's shields to 10 pts). CM2 launched it's full load of torpedoes at it, dropping it's shields but only scoring a few damage points (fortunately it's shields were boosted to 35pts since only 1 of the 6 phasers covering it hit anything). BC1 then opened fire on CM2, causing several criticals, but it's drones were shot down by a BDD. Then the Gorn CC fired it's Plasma-S torpedoes and phasers (since it had terrain between it and any enemy yet to fire so didn't have to worry about defence) at the damaged BC and destroyed it. 1-nil to the lizards. The Kzinti DWs in turn took out CM2 with a cascade of critical hits (half fired from long range, with only 2 of the 7 drones hitting, and half of the other 8 autohitting drones were shot down by another BDD on IDF).
Turn 3: Kzinti win Initiative. The Gorn CC "Tyranicon" held position and reloaded it's torpedoes (it was fairly safe from enemy fire due to the surrounding dust clouds), while the remaining CM boosted shields and lined up on the enemy battlecruiser, with the BDDs supporting. With the Gorn ships now breaking cover, the Kzinti ships extended range to just within drone autohit distance (except for the BC, which had taken engine damage and couldn't quite outrun CM1). The two flanking DWs fired at the BDDs on IDF, but the dust cloud's effects spoofed half of them and all but one of the rest were stopped by ph-3s and tractor beams. CM1 unloaded it's torpedoes and half it's phasers into the Kzinti battlecruiser (which only hit the torpedoes with 2 of the 8 bearing phasers, although the plasma damage rolls were terrible so it only lost 10pts of shield plus the boosted points). The BC1 "Eclipse" and it's escorting DWs launched drones at CM1, the DW at 18" missing completely (and losing 2 AD of drones), one other was tractored and the 4AD that hit failed to get through CM1's boosted shield.
Turn 4: Gorn win Initiative. The Gorn CC goes APTE to catch the BC "Eclipse", with two of the BDDs on IDF (the other failed and, still having it's torpedoes, went after a damaged DW). The Kzinti battlecruiser still had engine damage and couldn't break away, so it again boosted shields while the DWs moved to cover it (2 made IDF rolls). Yet again, defensive fire from the Kzinti was pretty poor (not helped by one of the DWs on IDF having to fend off a BDD's torpedoes) and the CC's plasma dropped what was left of Eclipse's shields after the Gorn phasers had done their stuff and scored a number of criticals, crippling the ship and destroying the impulse drive. By now, most of the Kzinti DWs had lost half their drones and one was nearly crippled, so they decided to disengage.
Neither of those factors have stopped me getting to 8 or less in my gorn outings. With a more limited effective range on drones, allowing Gorns to close to about 17ish first then move 12 forward making a lot harder to avoid range 8 or less whilst still keeping forward weapons bearing. Add in loss of lumbering IMO plasma fire is mostly going to be at range 8 or less.
Initiative is not that huge a problem in fleet games, it is crippling in small games, but the larger the game the less an issue it is. Why does having to move 1 ship first out of maybe 9+ ships mean all your fleet ends up at 8+ rather than 8-?
Even at 8-12 and not on a centerline a Gorn cruiser still has 7/8AD of plasma to the kzinti 4AD of drones.
Kzinti are renowned for lack of phaser 1s. No Kzinti except the BCH has more phaser 1 s forward than its equivalent Gorn.
A number of ships are F/P and F/S for the Plasma Fs, certainly the ships I like anyway. So centerlining isn't an issue for Gorns plasma as such.
Which is roughly what I said, you get hit by 12AD and take out about ~6AD.
In return the Kzinti, with no more phasers than the gorn and no tractor usage, gets hit by a an awful lot more plasma AD.
Why should it be even? a common situation in many games is the idea that one side delivers 'crunch' whereas the other delivers less per turn but at a more constant rate. Multi turn weapons pretty much always do crunch damage. Plasma in this game is a crunch weapon, they should be outdamaging disrupters/drones on the turn they fire.
Hypothetically, using the Gorn CM (as it's my usual gorn ship) and its nearest Kzinti equal - the BC.
Using Ph1s, plasma, drones or disrupters. 6 Gorns have an average forward damage output capability of 302 pts at ranges less than 8", the kzinti have 156. Assuming no defensive fire the Gorn can kill 5 kzinti vessels with a single strike (though it would be incredibly lucky to divide the damage perfectly, so say 4 instead), whilst probably escaping with 2 dead and one just about surviving. Arcs should be less an issue as you ought to be able to point your ships such that there are enemies either side of the centerline, and divvy your firepower accordingly.
Defensively each side probably gets a phaser 3 (or 2 for kzniti), but the Gorns get tractors as well, very slight edge to the Gorn on average, except that each drone dropped hurts the Kzinti more as they are their main damage delivery.
If the target (only) ships use all possible phasers defensively then the Kzinti have to just target 2 ships (if going for kills), that averages enough to kill 1 ship and start on another. The Gorn can target 4 ships, but that falls short of killing them all, at 3 ships they have overkill by a good bit, so the Gorns can kill 3 and do a good job starting on another.
IDF is interesting, in theory the Kzniti look good with lots of phaser 3s, but they have to watch how close they are as they will lose ships that may explode, so it is quite hard to provide true mutual support for everyone. The Gorns with longer range spare side phaser 1s can provide a bit of coverage without eating into forward firepower with proper formation. Probably about even in the end, but again each AD of drone loss hurts Kzinti more than Gorn losing AD of plasma.
Even if the kzniti lost no one on that mass alpha another turn of firing would only just bring them up to the damage the Gorn did.
This is not a dissimilar situation to FedCom, Photons and disrupters have simlar long term averages but Photons dump it all in one go, giving them incredible punch that can win the game in 1.
Clearly the above is all theoretical and a lot comes down to players, and other factors like terrain and actual fleet composition and the scenario in question, but also clearly Gorn have the ability to put the Kzinti out of action in a single alpha hit in larger games.
Of course the same was in theory true before. But it is now far more likely, the change to drones means they are not dead before even getting into range, and loss of lumbering doesn't make it so painful trying to line up an attack. They can still be worn down beyond optimal range, but that requires some actual skill on the part of the kzinti now as their good drone range is so close to letting the Gorns get that strike in. Equally it requires more than just driving up to the Kzinti and winning with the Gorns.
Klingons, they don't (usually) have the same drone density anyway, so not such an issue, neither are they going to have an easy time stopping the range 8 attack, as they will be wanting to keep those front shields forward. Losing plasma AD at range 8-12 is is well compensated for by taking on non-front shields, so if the klingon is at range 12 and facing away I may be tempted just to go for it anyway.
Feds are the ones to worry about still, good drones good phasers and crunchy photons, but then again Kirovs are BCHs and the Gorn BCH is very nice. 33% more plasma and 60% more forward firing phasers for 14% extra points over the CM, yes please! A single Gorn BCH has more average (unmitigated) single turn forward facing damage output than 2 kirovs combined at range 8, though the kirovs are very good at mitigating that with their phasers. The again for the points you don't get 2 Kirovs per Gorn BCH! Both ships are now the same manouverability. DWDs, were nice ships, but pop fast, lacking backup for the newly reduced effectiveness drones.
Its probably going to be a while before I get another game in
but I think Gorn are looking OK now. Of course I may change my mind after some games.We have never had a plasma shot under 8" in any of our games. The Klingon and Kzinti players were very careful to keep out of range which is ridiculously easy with pre-measurement and thus the Gorns (and the Romulans for our one Fed DWD pinata fest) have never had a full strength plasma launch.
As to initiative, the Gorn have to keep together and lacking an effective initiative sink like the E4, can't throw away a first move. Once you see their bearing it is easy to simply measure how far they can travel and stay 9" out with all but the very first ship you move and if they want to APE, they have 1 phaser 3 for defense, 2 tractors and 4-6 phaser 1's that will bear which after being used for defense leave a zero offense round.
Take a look at Scoutdads write ups as well. The mass Gorn smacking was at closer ranges and the proposed rules make that worse by eliminating the three ship rule.
As to initiative, the Gorn have to keep together and lacking an effective initiative sink like the E4, can't throw away a first move. Once you see their bearing it is easy to simply measure how far they can travel and stay 9" out with all but the very first ship you move and if they want to APE, they have 1 phaser 3 for defense, 2 tractors and 4-6 phaser 1's that will bear which after being used for defense leave a zero offense round.
Take a look at Scoutdads write ups as well. The mass Gorn smacking was at closer ranges and the proposed rules make that worse by eliminating the three ship rule.
if under 8 inchs why werent the zniti overloading disruptors. I think the mistake most make is using drones as a main attack weapon, they should be used to soften the traget and force the opponent to do things tactically to help setup for the wammy from a overloaded disruptor that you can fire every turn. or simply stay back out of torp range and pick them to death with disruptors. saber dancing is still a viable tactic especially with all the range the zinti have.
McKinstry said:
The one where he said he took a pounding was the Fed cheese fest one, range 36 drones and lumbering gorns, there was no note of the Gorns ever getting close, or are you meaning another write up?
The one the Gorns won was against klingons with no lumbering to worry about.
archon96 said:
I don't think it's a mistake. It is THE main attack weapon of the Star Fleet universe. Even in SFB, they are over-powered. They cost no energy, have no reload, and are guaranteed hits at even long range... well, not anymore, but the principle is the same.
Why charge and overload disruptors, then move into the enemy's best combat range? Nope, if you can kill 1 to 2 ships per turn and never get within close plasma range, it's not a mistake to do so. It's a mistake not to do so.
Which, is pretty much what the entire discussion is about. The Gorn are dead meat against a drone fleet. The new changes help mitigate that a lot.
Question, does the Gorn anchor still work?
Just played a 1000pt game against the Kzinti - good, close and enjoyable game
took 6 turns and ended with 1 undamaged Gorn Albertosaurus, 1 battered Epanterias and a Ceratosaurus versus a battered Kzinti Fast Cruiser
Won Initiative half the turns even at -2 on the Kzinti - fired plasma from all ships - several twice.
Loosing Lumbering was huge and the chnages to drone fire helped alot (as did a very handy asteroid clump).
Personally I think the new amendments are a big step forward.
took 6 turns and ended with 1 undamaged Gorn Albertosaurus, 1 battered Epanterias and a Ceratosaurus versus a battered Kzinti Fast Cruiser
Won Initiative half the turns even at -2 on the Kzinti - fired plasma from all ships - several twice.
Loosing Lumbering was huge and the chnages to drone fire helped alot (as did a very handy asteroid clump).
Personally I think the new amendments are a big step forward.
I'd like to ask those testing the new drone rules to keep track of how many drones were fired, and how many hit their targets. The reason I ask is that my experience with squadron/fleet battles in SFB was that drones had a 3-5% hit rate. I'm curious what the rate will be with the new rules.
If the new rules produce similar results, it'd be gratifying to know.
If the new rules produce similar results, it'd be gratifying to know.
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Rambler said:
Heck yes it works.
However.
It has a very short range so the tractoring ship needs to be within 14” of the likely target at the beginning of the turn. It uses an SA so no boosted shields and no IDF or APE. It is an opposed roll so when the prospective target tries to move he may break free anyway.
Still against someone like the Fed who can end up that close due to Photons or any race can be outflanked diving in and tractoring a nice juicy target that then fails to escape is fantastic. Centrelines all round on the soon to be dead victim. Also with the 16” Drone zone there are going to be more close range possible tractor victims now.
When it works and you get to centreline 36AD of plasma on a Fed BCH….....
I love the smell of Plasma in the morning
billclo said:I'd like to ask those testing the new drone rules to keep track of how many drones were fired, and how many hit their targets.
If the new rules produce similar results, it'd be gratifying to know.
Gut feeling is its going to be a lot more the 5%. Still I am planning on a few Gorn/Klingon games this weekend so I can probably arrange a Gorn/Drone Murder fest.
OgreMkV said:
Agree entirely. Drones are still the wonder weapon. They beat everything else hands down. You can fly entire fleets of ships with just Drones and Phasers (the DWD horde for one) and devastate enemies. Interestingly even with the cost increase you can pack in 8 DWDs and dance around the 16” range band while throwing 32 Drones a turn at an enemy every turn. Yes you will lose them fast but if you keep them separated so the short range races have to come after them in low numbers they are hard to swat.
Lumbering is now GONE, all hail the new Gorn, able to turn corners and all. :mrgreen:
But Drones still remain the main weapon. The new rules changes limit their effective range but within that range they still rule all other weapons. No SA needed to use them, fire every turn, turret mounts so they can fire in every arc regardless of the firers facing.
Running some numbers and some battles in my head giving Drones ammo loss like an ADD helps a little but by the time a Drone heavy fleet is running out of Drones most of an enemy fleet is too dead to worry about it.
You can make drones have a to hit roll at all ranges, give them say Accurate +1 so they are 3+ to hit out to 18” and 4+ beyond. That involves writing a whole new set of rules though.
You can give them ammo like an ADD, you can say any roll of a 1 auto misses AND uses ammo so even inside the zone they are 2+. Its not a huge drop and adds more rules.
The problem is to sort Drones without making the Kzinti into second rate Klingon’s.
With ships more able to fight Drone races released later on the problem becomes less at a fleet level. But that leaves you with Fleets designed just to defend against Drone heavy enemies and leaves you less able to face normal or non Drone fleets.
Even giving every Drone rack 4 shots for an entire battle just means they can kill 6 or so of your ships before they run out.
It’s a problem for every race and so I wait to see what can sort of solution can be found.
Someone suggested a while ago Dropping Drones to lower damage and not Devastating. Maybe it’s worth going along that line of thought once more. How would Drones being Multihit D3 change things?
So no pressure here Matt but the world is waiting on this one :wink:
I think its worth seeing the results of the revised Drone rules - they are powerful - but last night it seemed to go well - even with all the Kzinti ships having 4 drones.
look forward to seeing how the other peoples games works
Continuing the positive theme finally got notificaiton that my Klingons have been posted!
look forward to seeing how the other peoples games works
Continuing the positive theme finally got notificaiton that my Klingons have been posted!
Da Boss said:
I have just come out of the packing area, fairly drenched in sweat getting that little lot out! It is in the hands of the Royal Mail now but, Postie willing, you will see it on Saturday.
Keeper Nilbog
Mongoose
Whats that on the horizon, flat and grey ?
Yes, it's a Gorn ship
But it's going the WRONG way ?
(please, don't put them back anymore :? - Unless, there all Wild Side designs)
Yes, it's a Gorn ship
But it's going the WRONG way ?
(please, don't put them back anymore :? - Unless, there all Wild Side designs)
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
Captain Jonah said:
That's maybe too much, they already do less damage on average than in FC (for those unfamiliar with FC it does a flat 12pts, compared to a photon torpedo's 8pts in that game). D6 is fine IMO, but they could stand to lose Devastating which I think does make them overly powerful - more so than numbers/base damage.
I'd suggest trying giving each rack 4 shots with no reloads, the ADD-type rule you proposed fits more with those rapid-firing systems IMO and hurts drone ships a bit too much if you're unlucky with your dice rolls. Combined with the new range rules, I think that'd be enough to reduce their (over)effectiveness sufficiently. Drone fleets would still get a few heavy barrages in, but they'd have to choose carefully when to do so and the opposing fleet wouldn't be forced to stay on the defensive for the entire game.
Iain McGhee said:
Drones do way more damage in ACTA than FedCom. Sure their raw damage number may be about right, but whereas photons still have to roll to hit, drones are auto hit immediately. That makes a huge difference. Drones are not auto hit in FC.
To put it in perspective I'm currently in an online tourney game of FC playing orions sporting 22 drone racks across 4 ships (that would be 22AD of drones in ACTA). I've yet to score a single drone hit, and will probably struggle to get any hits all game, at least with out some really fancy tactics that force the hits no matter that the enemy does (e.g. manage to trap him in a corner with no escape). In ACTA I'd have effectively killed a ship by now.
Reducing the damage rating of drones would mean that overall they are more where they should be in terms of overall damage across a game.
