Gorn Fleet - Comments Welcomed

I'd be fine with finite ammo load but that adds a level of record keeping that when fighters arrive, could be one more small step to paralysis.

Getting rid of devastating would be better than simply fudging the D6 damage.

I still like using the ADD mechanic but allowing reloads if it drops to zero. You only get 1special action per ship per turn and using it to reload versus another useful activity adds to the tactical depth.

I'll only get in one game this weekend and amidst all the back and forth, what rules exactly are and aren't for test?
1- Lumbering is gone, period.
2- Is the proposal the two range band (less than 16 auto, over 16 5+ to hit) or a three band with a tiny 16-18 4+ to hit?
3- Is the three ship limit gone? (really bad idea IMHO)
4- Gorns at +0 initiative?
 
I would think that if drones were the uber weapon that some think they are then every race in the quadrant would either develop their own or have a counter measure. Also on plasma torps they die way too easy as compared to FC, maybe a solution would be to roll the multi hit first and then have the phasers start to chop it down. I now in FC i was never able to nullity a Plasma torp like i can in ACTASF. Just a few thoughts i may wrong.
 
McKinstry said:
I'd be fine with finite ammo load but that adds a level of record keeping that when fighters arrive, could be one more small step to paralysis.

Getting rid of devastating would be better than simply fudging the D6 damage.

I still like using the ADD mechanic but allowing reloads if it drops to zero. You only get 1special action per ship per turn and using it to reload versus another useful activity adds to the tactical depth.

From a record keeping persptective, I think I would lean towards the 4 ammo racks over the ADD mechanic. Either way, we have to keep track of something and it seems easier to just check off one of your four boxes next to the Drone line until they are out (no rolling, it just happens).

Also, as someone mentioned, it makes the Drone player think on how he wants to use his drones: Get some long range (but maybe not effective) fire in early or wait until the more effective close range shots (at the potential cost of loosing a ship/taking a crit, etc.).
 
As I said, I like the ammo limit but...I am concerned there are many more small things to track coming down the pike that cumulatively could add up.

Camels nose under the tent and all that.
 
How would ammo loads effect Federation ships - there ADD is based on Drone strength.

Personally, i don't think you need to limit drone ammo, as with the current playtest options they are only lethal at under 16" (and i strongly suggest that the 'command channel' rule remains, mainly due to the 360 degree fire arc and the inability of ships to cover each other - otherwise we're back to 1 turn kills, doesn't matter if the enemy is at 15", your still losing a ship at turn for little/no return with most fleets that use Plasma as primary weapons).

The reload option would give all Drone/ADD races an option to reequip these defenses, which doesn't really fit cannon, and most Drone heavy (Kzinti) ships carry enough reloads for around 12 shots per rack (on a standard 4 drone rack - loaded rack + 2 reloads). As all other races can reload there main weapons (Photon/Disruptor (and yes, Kzinti have Disruptors) and Plasma), limiting drones feels wrong.

As far as the 'devestating' effect goes, as i've said before, i don't think that Photon's should have this ability, and can see removing it from drones as an option, though always thought they had it to balance out the damage issues - D6 multihit does not show the strength of drones, devestating can (though i'd be more likely to leave it on drones than Photons - still don't know why thay have it - good damage, shield leak and overload option already).

But no-one seems to think photon's are overpowered (they model along the same line as disruptors, but gain the devestating trait on top of their other abilities a luck 'leak' with a photon will cause issues - and if this is to model the damage chart, what happened to the Gorn 'CTR' hull issue. I can handle the current photon rules, just don't really understand this little bit (i think that they maybe a 'non-cannon' lay over from the stuff that cannot be mentioned, as in certain media takes on the universe photon's are devestating (1 hit = 1 kill).

Back to the Gorns, the only True race that needs none of these trick laiden weapons, - just a rewrite/review of the rules to be able to survive the game :twisted: :D :D :lol: :D :twisted:
 
I don't think anybody minds photons because they are the single most inaccurate weapon in the game. 5+ to hit over 7.5" and at best, a 4+ under 7.5".

Compared to auto hit under 16"' they are not that scary although they aren't subject to defensive fire.
 
Photons: As a SFB player, I can see limiting Devastating to overloads. Photons tend to be limited to proximity loadings for long range sniping, overloads to crush an opponent, or standards to when you are not quite sure how this turn will develop. Limiting devastating to overloads would reflect that well.
 
McKinstry said:
, what rules exactly are and aren't for test?
1- Lumbering is gone, period.
2- Is the proposal the two range band (less than 16 auto, over 16 5+ to hit) or a three band with a tiny 16-18 4+ to hit?
3- Is the three ship limit gone? (really bad idea IMHO)
4- Gorns at +0 initiative?

1. Yes.
2. Three range band.
3. Yes.
4. No change to Gorn initiative.
 
McKinstry said:
I don't think anybody minds photons because they are the single most inaccurate weapon in the game. 5+ to hit over 7.5" and at best, a 4+ under 7.5".

Compared to auto hit under 16"' they are not that scary although they aren't subject to defensive fire.

Wait till the end of the month and people have started to use scouts. :twisted:

Photons are perhaps the single weapon most boosted by a scout.
 
Captain Jonah said:
McKinstry said:
I don't think anybody minds photons because they are the single most inaccurate weapon in the game. 5+ to hit over 7.5" and at best, a 4+ under 7.5".

Compared to auto hit under 16"' they are not that scary although they aren't subject to defensive fire.

Wait till the end of the month and people have started to use scouts. :twisted:
Scouts will be good but hardly overpowered for a few reasons:
- scout ships shouldn't have photons themselves. However, the tradeoff is worth it for fewer but more accurate photons.
- scouts need a successful CQC to grant the rerolls
- scouts can be jammed
- scouts tend to be high-priority targets. Dead scout = no rerolls possible.

There are other functions scouts can perform but I can see other fleets, particularly in tournaments, fielding scouts to counter Fed scouts.

Captain Jonah said:
Photons are perhaps the single weapon most boosted by a scout.
For now. Other empires who will benefit significantly aren't in the game yet.
 
OK folks. My sons are back from college for the weekend so I'll get in one playtest which we've set up and will play after dinner. Gorn v Kzinti, 1500 points.

I've played Gorn twice, the boys have never played a full game of ACTA, just putzed with Feds and Klinks. I'll take the Gorn and try to close as quickly as possible, the boys will try and stay away for as long as possible using drones. I will try and advise and discuss as we go through moves so I won't let the boys do anything foolish (that's my purview :twisted: ).

Gorn - 1XDD, 2xBDD,2xHDD,1xCM-K variant, 1XBC,1XBC w/cmmd,1XBCH =1505

Kzinti - 2XDW,1XCM,5XNCA,1XNCAw/cmmd = 1505

The scenario is Space Superiority. The matt is 4'x6'.
Terrain using the x,y grid system with the X-axis numbered 1-6, left to right and the Y-axis going 'up' from A through D. Terrain has been rolled and three pieces of stellar debris, all asteroid fields, have been determined: a density 6 field in B2, a density 7 field in C3 and a density 10 field in D6.

Roll for set up went to the Kzinti, both rolled 4, Kzinti at +1 =net 5, Gorn at -1 = net 3
Gorn fleet is set up on the left side roughly in squares C1-2 and B1-2 to get some shielding from the field in C3 on the approach, Kzinti response was to set up concentrated in the C5-6,B5-6 area crowding the set up line. The fleets are 36" apart at the start.

I have about 4 hours to decide whether I have the entire Gorn fleet go APE or IDF. I'm inclined towards IDF as the drones should be handleable at range and giving up IDF for a lousy 4" when I'll still be far out of plasma range doesn't seem like a good trade.
 
Remember APTE also gives you the chance to evade seeking weapons, I found it very effective vs massed drone fire even without IDF support.
 
I don't think I can use the evade roll on APTE since I'm trying to close on the fleet and that option isn't available if the firing ship is in my front arc?
 
McKinstry said:
I don't think anybody minds photons because they are the single most inaccurate weapon in the game. 5+ to hit over 7.5" and at best, a 4+ under 7.5".

Compared to auto hit under 16"' they are not that scary although they aren't subject to defensive fire.
Are you kidding me? Photons are great. It's not about the accuracy, it's the through-shield crits. A volley of 4 photons has a 27% chance of laying at least one crit on the table, averaging a little over three crits when it does so. Photons are amazing at damaging shielded ships.

I'd trade drones for photons on Klingons in a heartbeat given the proposed nerfs to drones. The fact that I can get double mileage out of an overload action is icing on the cake. The only reason I would want to hang onto drones is (a) effectiveness outside of phaser range and (b) countering other drones. Given large nerfs to drones, and especially large nerfs to drones at long range, neither one of those reasons is compelling anymore.
 
TJHairball said:
Are you kidding me? Photons are great. It's not about the accuracy, it's the through-shield crits. A volley of 4 photons has a 27% chance of laying at least one crit on the table, averaging a little over three crits when it does so. Photons are amazing at damaging shielded ships.

Ya, I agree. My regular opponent always complains that I get crits with my photons. But I tell him, that IS the point of photons - its not just to do a bunch of shield damage. Only direct fire weapon with devastating, and being of regular "accuracy" means that you do proportionally more penetrating damage than other weapons.

Interesting stats there - should do some numbers myself. Is 27% for overloaded photons or regular?

-Tim
 
McKinstry said:
I don't think I can use the evade roll on APTE since I'm trying to close on the fleet and that option isn't available if the firing ship is in my front arc?

I have used APE in the last 7 games I have played as my opening move, all you have to do is swing a 45 degree turn at the end of your turn. One game I was only 4 inches away from a BC and did it. He rolled badly and I made him eat his own tail next turn.
 
TJHairball said:
McKinstry said:
I don't think anybody minds photons because they are the single most inaccurate weapon in the game. 5+ to hit over 7.5" and at best, a 4+ under 7.5".

Compared to auto hit under 16"' they are not that scary although they aren't subject to defensive fire.
Are you kidding me? Photons are great. It's not about the accuracy, it's the through-shield crits. A volley of 4 photons has a 27% chance of laying at least one crit on the table, averaging a little over three crits when it does so. Photons are amazing at damaging shielded ships.

I'd trade drones for photons on Klingons in a heartbeat given the proposed nerfs to drones. The fact that I can get double mileage out of an overload action is icing on the cake. The only reason I would want to hang onto drones is (a) effectiveness outside of phaser range and (b) countering other drones. Given large nerfs to drones, and especially large nerfs to drones at long range, neither one of those reasons is compelling anymore.

They are fine but they are hardly a game balance problem given their accuracy. It doesn't feel particularly problematic to have a very powerful weapon provided that weapon only has a 33% chance to hit over 7.5" away and only the same 1 in 6 chance of penetrating a shield as any other weapon. What is does after it penetrates the shield can be dramatic but they are only available in an F arc battery and require reloading. They are justifiably popular but you don't hear demands for nerfing them.
 
Here is the final on tonights playtest. I am sure we all goofed up royally but it was fun and I think the Gorn are getting close to fixed.

Gorn v Kzinti, 1500 points.
Gorn - 1XDD, 2xBDD,2xHDD,1xCM-K variant, 1XBC,1XBC w/cmmd,1XBCH =1505
Kzinti - 2XDW,1XCM,5XNCA,1XNCAw/cmmd = 1505
The scenario is Space Superiority. The matt is 4'x6'.
Terrain using the x,y grid system with the X-axis numbered 1-6, left to right and the Y-axis going 'up' from A through D. Terrain has been rolled and three pieces of stellar debris, all asteroid fields, have been determined: a density 6 field in B2, a density 7 field in C3 and a density 10 field in D6.
Roll for set up went to the Kzinti, both rolled 4, Kzinti at +1 =net 5, Gorn at -1 = net 3
Gorn fleet is set up on the left side roughly in squares C1-2 and B1-2 to get some shielding from the field in C3 on the approach, Kzinti response was to set up concentrated in the C5-6,B5-6 area crowding the set up line. The fleets are 36" apart at the start.

Turn 1 – Kizinti roll 7+1 =8. Gorn roll 9-1=7, Kizinti initiative
Move 1 - The Gorn fleet advances at full normal speed (12”) and attempts the IDF special action on all ships while turning to starboard (down if facing the table along the described x-axis) while the Kizinti mostly back up 4” using no special actions. Range at the conclusion of the moves vary between 26-36”.
Firing 1 – The Gorn are out of range, the Kizinti launch 36 drones but IDF and simply missing result in 1 of 36 drones hitting (a 3 point shield hit on the BCC).

Turn 2 – Gorn roll a 7-1=6, Kizinti roll a 10+1 =11, Kizinti initiative
Move 2 – The Gorn fleet goes APTE and turns to port to parallel the table edge. The Kizinti swing to their starboard and ‘up’ almost headed towards the asteroid field in C3. Range between the fleets is down to a bit over 18” to 24”.
Firing 2 – The Gorn are still out of range. The Kizinti fire all 36 drones but with accuracy at 5+ and Gorn evasion plus defensive fire, only two drones hit although the damage rolls to the BCC shields are exceptional (10 hits).

Turn 3 – Gorn roll 5-1=4, Kizinti roll 2+1=3, Gorn initiative
Move 3 – The Kizinti swing to port ‘under’ the asteroid field in C3. The lead Kizinti DW ventures too far and the Gorn lighter forces use their maneuverability to swing hard to port and ‘up’ closing on the DW ‘s and a CM while the larger ships swing to port at a their more restricted turn 6 and the BCC swings wide and behind the others falling back as it boosts shields. Both sides attempt to use the IDF (Intensify Defensive Fire) special action on all ships except for the BCC boosting shields. The Gorn destroyer forces have 3 within plasma range (between 6-10”) and two just outside while the wider turn of the cruiser forces have left them just inside phaser 1 range to the leftmost ships in the Kizinti formation.
Firing 3 – One HDD, One BDD and One DD unload their plasmas on the lead DW while holding phasers back in defense. The DW and supporting IDF cruisers knock back much of the plasma but all shields are lost although no critical hits are inflicted and the ship is not crippled. Long range phaser fire is received from the cruisers knocking down some shields on an NCA but the light forces hold their phasers as a defensive precaution. Kizinti return fire destroys the lead BDD and roughs up the lead HDD primarily with disruptors and drones as the Kizinti used most of their phaser weaponry that bore on defense.
At this point the Gorns had lost 1 BDD and had one HDD at about 50% shields while 1 Kizinti DW was without shields.

Turn 4 – Gorns roll 8-1=7, Kizinti roll 8+1=9, Kizinti initiative
Move 4 – The wounded Kizinti DW attempts to withdraw towards the asteroid field in the ‘upper’ left corner D6 and boost shields while the rest of the Kizinti fleet moves forward towards the table edge in response to the reloading Gorn HDD, BDD and DD that back up 4” reloading while the previously unengaged HDD swings in from the right side of the Kizinti formation penetrating to within 6” of the NCC and the BCH and BC also swing around on the right of the Kizinti formation. The Gorn CM and BCC are behind and a bit to starboard of the other Gorn cruisers and remain out of all but phaser 1 range. The Gorn BCH and BC are between 8-12” of the withdrawing DW and slightly over that to the Kizinti cruiser line. The Gorn light forces, both the attacking HDD and the reloading remaining light forces are between 6-12” from the bulk of the Kizinti fleet. Anything not reloading attempted IDF except the wounded DW who boosted shields.
Firing 4 – For the Gorn, plasma salvoes from the BCH and BC destroy the wounded (big explosion but no other ship within 4”) DW and one plasma S from the BC is also hurled at the NCC in support of the HDD attack. The NCC loses about half her shields but suffers no critical hits. In return, Kizinti disruptors and drones concentrate on the two HDD’s, overwhelming both although neither explodes.
At this point, the Gorn had lost 1 X BDD and 2 X HDD versus the single DW for the Kizinti and the initiative sink effect was beginning to have an effect.

Turn 5 – Gorns roll 7-1=6, Kizinti roll 9+1=10, Kizinti initiative
Move 5- The Gorn BCH and BC back up 4” reloading while the CN and BCC move up with them attempting to IDF. The newly reloaded DD and BDD hold position as three Kizinti NCA, 1 CM and the remaining DW have swung around to with 7-9” of the side/rear of the Gorn cruiser line with the remaining Kizinti ships directly face the remaining Gorn lights. Both sides IDF rolls were appallingly bad.
Firing 5 – The newly reloaded Gorn light forces (1xDD, 1 x BDD) fire directly into the back of the remaining DW and with little IDF support available, shields are smashed and the ship is left crippled with about 4 points of damage remaining. Phasers and a limited amount of plasma weapons from the side arcs of the CM and BCC along one Plasma S unfired from earlier knock back the shields on an NCA and inflict a pair of critical hits but the return fire from the flanking force flattens the shields on the BCH and inflicts a complimentary pair of critical hits in return while the units facing the Gorn DD’s use disruptors and mass drone waves to exterminate the remaining Gorn lights.
At this point the Gorns had lost 1 x DD, 2 X BDD and 2 X HDD against a DW and a crippled DW and had a sizeable and still potent Kizinti cruiser group turning in on their rear and the game was called.

Conclusions – The ranged changes to drones certainly make them mostly impotent at range. They are still as potent as ever within 16” and absent the three ship rule, the ability of 1500 point fleets to smash 1-2 ships per turn with impunity remains whereas with the rule retained, it seems to balance while still leaving drones very potent and still forcing all sorts of tactical compromises.
My opinion –
1- Keep the three ship limit
2- Add and keep the drone long range rules
3- Get rid of the Gorn -1 initiative, a simple +0 should suffice for flavor without shafting
4- Forget lumbering forever. The Gorns were much more fun and interesting when they can turn.
 
Thanks for the report, most useful. Agree about the removal of the 3 ship limit, think that was a bad idea. If drones at range have been nerf baddly, what about the following ?

Up to range 18" (half range) - Autohit
up to Maximum Range (36") - 4+ to hit
Keep the 3 ship limit for drones

This gives the 2 range bands of other weapon systems and gives a better chance of engagement with drones (as they would be limited to 3 ships firing at any one target - so with average rolls a 12 drone salvo should hit with 6. Should be easy to deal with through IDF SA, if you make the roll).

Agree with your other points - dump Lumbering and the -1 initiative modifier (though we might be pushing the -1 - if it's that or Lumbering, hello -1 Initiative :? )
 
McKinstry said:
They are fine but they are hardly a game balance problem given their accuracy. It doesn't feel particularly problematic to have a very powerful weapon provided that weapon only has a 33% chance to hit over 7.5" away and only the same 1 in 6 chance of penetrating a shield as any other weapon. What is does after it penetrates the shield can be dramatic but they are only available in an F arc battery and require reloading. They are justifiably popular but you don't hear demands for nerfing them.
I agree they aren't a game balance problem.

They are, however, definitely strong weapons. Drones were stronger when effective to 36" and unlimited, but restricted to the same range, they are clearly less powerful.
AdmiralGrafSpee said:
Interesting stats there - should do some numbers myself. Is 27% for overloaded photons or regular?

-Tim
Regular.

Basically speaking, you'll land a through-shield shot a little over half the time; and if you land one through-shield shot with a regular photon, it'll crit a little more than half the time. Actually, that was an unfortunate understatement, I forgot to account for the very non-negligible chance you land two photons through. The figure is actually a hair over 30%.

With an overloaded photon, the story is pretty similar. You'll land a through-shield shot a little over half the time, and that almost always lands at least one crit (which is double, because it's devastating).

Combined with the heavy phaser load of Federation ships, this means the Federation is far and away the best at critting you to death. Races that rely heavily on seeking weapons are mixed; their main weapons have to get all the way through shields before causing crits, but are devastating once they get through. Klingons, relying the most on disruptors for damage output, are down there at the bottom, and are the most likely to simply blow you up by sheer hull damage.

Right now, in our internal pointing system in-house, we've decided that die for die, photon torpedoes are the strongest weapon in the game, even if they are very limited in their usage; even if you only fire photon torpedoes once, they're game-changing.
 
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