G'Koth Trasnport Cruiser

[H]

I dunno, I'm holding out little hope, EP seems so opposed to it, and has Matts ear more than any of us do, heck, I suspect with what certain playtesters have said about me (Not EP by the way), I may as well be none existent. so I'm not a valueable asset in this Crusade!

 

[Morgoth]

Sorry but JPB are not cool - an obscure bad plot device turned into a standard tourney tactic is not in the spirit of the show IMHO nor is it part of a cool game. I refuse to use them in friendlies and tournament games as a matter of principle...that and Shadows can't do them anyway

The group I play with are in total agreement here with you, we don't use them either

 

[H]

used em once in a tourney game just to see, against the vorlons it really didn't matter and we counter jump bombed each other just for a laugh really, stupid irritating tactic, never do it with drakh even though i could

 

[Na-Po]

We agreed NOT to use any of this $*ù^ Jump, it does not really make sense.

Furthermore after rereading the rules the § concerning the damages done is inside the "hyperspace to normal space" section, which should lead to understand the reading as "only a hyperspace to normal space vortex does hurt you".

So that's the way we play, if you want to escape, well, open a jump point AND escape. If you want fight, so come on and fight !

As a Minbari player I should be the one using this but as everyone knows Minbaris respect a lot of "engagement" rules, including honnor ;-)

 

[Morgoth]

My main point wasn't about "plot devices" but rather that most people were saying "we want a raid level g'quan so we can use the model more"

No the main point was that this ship exists in a supplement, inrespective of it being a G'Quan variant or not, and therefore we are backing its inclusion into the game proper as the fluff in an Official Mongoose product substantiates it too. We are merely saying its deserving of entry into the game proper.

Now look at that logically. If a thread starts with Centauri players saying "hey lets have a raid level Primus so we can use it more" or EA "raid level omega please" or Minbari "raid level sharlin please". That is my concern. Anyone can state a case for model x should be more readily available across PLs.

You miss the point completely , we aren't saying that at all. We are only putting forward what has already been produced by Mongoose already. We aren't asking for the creation of a whole new ship as it has been created already, maybe just a tiny tweak, and then inclusion. What your saying about a Primus, Omega or Sharlin etc has no relevance as they have either NOT had a variant printed for them printed elsewhere in a Mongoose product or if they have it has been UNIQUE so is a one off. But heh, the EA are gonna get a unique one-off Victory aren't they........However irrespective of that this ship is not unique, its balanced and would be nice to see. Personally I like to see the introduction of new options and ships and am always happy to see the inclusion of new ones, like the recent Drazi and EA ones, so what is so wrong with this???????

 

[emperorpenguin]

sorry Mongoose haven't done a Primus raid variant but do you really need one with a Sulust and Prefect sitting there??????and I forgot that the Tertius is such a "non-broken" ship after all. !

and do you need a raid level g'quan with the half dozen ships you have sitting there? Sorry but I just get the sense this is rooted in "our ships aren't good enough at present" and they aren't but that is being addressed in 2nd ed. Until then use the G'koth I say but if you WANT to take a transport ship over what you have in 2nd ed then you are nuts!

Sorry but JPB are not cool - an obscure bad plot device turned into a standard tourney tactic is not in the spirit of the show IMHO nor is it part of a cool game

You are right on the second point but not the first. The JPB wasn't a bad plot device. A plot device is something contrived to fit an episode. We know that given Minbari superiority the Drala Fi would have torn that fleet to shreds anyway without jumping in on top of them, it wasn't a "plot device". Differing White Star speeds or crappy shadow ships are "plot devices" but not what you said sorry.
However it IS too easy and bad gamesmanship. The trouble has always been that it is too easy. From ITB we get the sense that it needs a precise pre-determined location.

I dunno, I'm holding out little hope, EP seems so opposed to it, and has Matts ear more than any of us do, heck, I suspect with what certain playtesters have said about me (Not EP by the way), I may as well be none existent. so I'm not a valueable asset in this Crusade!

drop the conspiracy thing, I stated clearly yesterday this was my opinion and I was debating purely on the grounds that I disagree with the arguments put forward. I haven't Matt's ear, I haven't mentioned this to him and I certainly haven't mentioned you! Why would I have done so? :?

 

[H]

sorry Mongoose haven't done a Primus raid variant but do you really need one with a Sulust and Prefect sitting there??????and I forgot that the Tertius is such a "non-broken" ship after all. !

and do you need a raid level g'quan with the half dozen ships you have sitting there? Sorry but I just get the sense this is rooted in "our ships aren't good enough at present" and they aren't but that is being addressed in 2nd ed. Until then use the G'koth I say but if you WANT to take a transport ship over what you have in 2nd ed then you are nuts!

Sorry but JPB are not cool - an obscure bad plot device turned into a standard tourney tactic is not in the spirit of the show IMHO nor is it part of a cool game

You are right on the second point but not the first. The JPB wasn't a bad plot device. A plot device is something contrived to fit an episode. We know that given Minbari superiority the Drala Fi would have torn that fleet to shreds anyway without jumping in on top of them, it wasn't a "plot device". Differing White Star speeds or crappy shadow ships are "plot devices" but not what you said sorry.
However it IS too easy and bad gamesmanship. The trouble has always been that it is too easy. From ITB we get the sense that it needs a precise pre-determined location.

I dunno, I'm holding out little hope, EP seems so opposed to it, and has Matts ear more than any of us do, heck, I suspect with what certain playtesters have said about me (Not EP by the way), I may as well be none existent. so I'm not a valueable asset in this Crusade!

drop the conspiracy thing, I stated clearly yesterday this was my opinion and I was debating purely on the grounds that I disagree with the arguments put forward. I haven't Matt's ear, I haven't mentioned this to him and I certainly haven't mentioned you! Why would I have done so? :?

You are a playtester, you should be feeding things back, good, bad or indifferent. The whole sagi issue might never have heppened if things had made it back to Matt.
Oh, and i did say not EP with the lovely name calling.

 

[emperorpenguin]

You are a playtester, you should be feeding things back, good, bad or indifferent. The whole sagi issue might never have heppened if things had made it back to Matt.

You think matt hasn't read this? :roll: I'm not saying anything to Matt because I don't want to be accused of sabotaging it for you if he says no.

The saggi thing as you put it is crap and has been clarified before. First as tested in the tourney lists couldn't take missile variants (source of many complaints)
Second it took until april for the first anti-saggi complaints to get going by which point we were finished on armageddon.
Third, Matt DOES notice these things. And released a S&P to correct it.

And you haven't said why your name is muck. For all I knew you could have been sarcastic saying "not EP". What is the big deal that I have obviously missed out on?

 

[Burger]

2nd ed

Here we go again... :roll:

Just cos something is coming in 2nd ed, doesn't mean it shouldn't come now as well. Since 2nd ed is 9 months away (out in August my eye! We all know it'll be delayed and delayed and delayed just like every other product)

 

[Tank]

You cant say it "wasnt" a plot device, unless you have consulted with JMS? We all know that there are inconsistencies and there had to be a way that they could show Sheridan mining the asteroid field with good reason to know his opponent would be there, ergo plot device. Also what happened to the 3 heavy cruisers escorting the Black Star? And the one time we do see a JPB it is very restricted in pulling it off! Anyway has all been covered.

The other point is that another plot device has allowed Narn players the option of using one of the coolest models in the game at a slightly lower priority, if thats what they want why is it an issue to include it?

 

[H]

maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Just mentioning that this exists is not sabotage though.
now, saying no no no, it sucks matt, I think it's unbalanced they really don't nead it, can I have a raid primus..... would be sabotaging it ;-)

 

[emperorpenguin]

2nd ed

Here we go again... :roll:

but it IS relevant Burger. The question isn't about the G'koth NOW it is about it in 2nd ed.
You are all making assumptions that the narn status quo will exist in 2nd ed
how do you know (since you are all so doubting...) that the g'koth won't be a crap underpowered choice in 2nd ed.....?

 

[Burger]

The question isn't about the G'koth NOW it is about it in 2nd ed.

Maybe I have missed something but a few posts back Morgoth said he had submitted the G'Koth stats posted a while back, to S&P? If that isn't "now" then I dunno what is.

 

[emperorpenguin]

You cant say it "wasnt" a plot device, unless you have consulted with JMS? We all know that there are inconsistencies and there had to be a way that they could show Sheridan mining the asteroid field with good reason to know his opponent would be there, ergo plot device. Also what happened to the 3 heavy cruisers escorting the Black Star? And the one time we do see a JPB it is very restricted in pulling it off! Anyway has all been covered.?

What has the asteroid field got to do with it? :? Sheridan lured them into the asteroid field with a distress call, that has NOTHING to do with the Jump Point Bomb!
What did happen to the 3 heavy cruisers? Balls up. It was also supposed to be in the Mars-Jovian asteroid belt

I did say it should be more restricted that isn't the point either!

 

[emperorpenguin]

The question isn't about the G'koth NOW it is about it in 2nd ed.

Maybe I have missed something but a few posts back Morgoth said he had submitted the G'Koth stats posted a while back, to S&P? If that isn't "now" then I dunno what is.

which would be for 1st ed. There is still a large number of posts saying "put it in 2nd ed our ships aren't good enough" which means presumption of 2nd ed ships being crap...
So it was relevant whether you like it or not

 

[Burger]

The question isn't about the G'koth NOW it is about it in 2nd ed.

Maybe I have missed something but a few posts back Morgoth said he had submitted the G'Koth stats posted a while back, to S&P? If that isn't "now" then I dunno what is.

which would be for 1st ed. There is still a large number of posts saying "put it in 2nd ed our ships aren't good enough" which means presumption of 2nd ed ships being crap...
So it was relevant whether you like it or not

Please point me to a single one in this thread? One not made by you, that is. Everyone else is talking about now, not 2e.

 

[Hash]

Chill out guys!

I'm sure EP wouldn't go so low as to post comments about individuals to Matt just cause he has his e-mail and disagrees with what they said on the forum...that would be silly and petty and Matt would quite rightly tell him to grow up

Suffice to say I don't think we're going to find agreement on this, EP has stated his reasons why he voted no and while the majority of this thread finds his arguement lacking, I respect his right to hold his own opinion. There is little point in trying to change people's minds by repeating the same arguments back at him that he has already rejected. Likewise EP I think the players on this thread have heard your counter arguement several times now and we're not convinced. Pretty much everyone else on this thread wants a G'Koth - even non Narn boys like me

Question now is, not can EP be persuaded or can he persuade the majority on this thread...I think we can agree to disagree on that...but can we get some attention from Mongoose please!

Mr Sprange?!!!

The G'Koth was an excellent ship in S&P, kudos on that, and you may have noticed a large number of loyal ACTA players would like to get the chance to field it (or blow it up) officially - any chance of that in the near future?

Right...next person to flame has to watch Legends of the Rangers...twice! :twisted:

 

[Tank]

well the Asteriod field is another significant plot device for this particular scenario, after all an EA Task force was lured into the asteriod field and forced to bunch up (fairly significant I feel) and was then JP Bombed by the Black Star when they had.

Sheridan sent out the distress call because:

a) Intell had made clear that the Black Star left no survivors

b) they had "HARD" Intelligence that the Black star was in the vicinity (I wonder how that came about)

c) His ship was in distress

d) it was a good plan

So yes I feel that the JP Bomb and the asteroid field (whose role is undoubtedly important) were both plot devices to allow sheridan to destroy the feared and hated Black Star, thus allowing several plot hooks in the series!

 

[emperorpenguin]

maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Just mentioning that this exists is not sabotage though.
now, saying no no no, it sucks matt, I think it's unbalanced they really don't nead it, can I have a raid primus..... would be sabotaging it ;-)

and how would you know what I had said. This forum is full of BS, half-truths, gossip and lies.

 

[Morgoth]

Just cos something is coming in 2nd ed, doesn't mean it shouldn't come now as well. Since 2nd ed is 9 months away (out in August my eye! We all know it'll be delayed and delayed and delayed just like every other product)

here here!!

The other point is that another plot device has allowed Narn players the option of using one of the coolest models in the game at a slightly lower priority, if thats what they want why is it an issue to include it?

Yeah why is it such an issue to include it??

but it IS relevant Burger. The question isn't about the G'koth NOW it is about it in 2nd ed. You are all making assumptions that the narn status quo will exist in 2nd ed how do you know (since you are all so doubting...) that the g'koth won't be a crap underpowered choice in 2nd ed.....?

But we aren't talking about 2ed, what do we know about 2nd ed??? we aren't playtesters, so we have to go with the game system we currently have. I am sure that the design and playtesting team could easily produce a 2nd edition version too.