Get Conan the Barbarian back!

[andakitty]

Perhaps he is talking about the facts that practically every game company is no longer using D20 as a default system as they seemed to be doing for a while, and more new games are cropping up with original mechanics now than two or three years ago?

Just askin'. 8)

 

[TrippyHippy]

...outmoded because of the demise of D20 as a concept.

Well, 'Pathfinder' is the 2nd most popular FRPG by a wide margin.

Pathfinder, technically isn't D20 - it's OGL. Beyyond that they've done a very good job of marketing themselves as a 3.75Edition or whathaveyou. However, for the rest of the games out there, it's clear that the whole d20 market isn't what it was - not least because Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition is no longer open. D20 Conan was right for it's time, but it isn't the best option now. In my view RuneQuest is - and it would enhance both IPs to be associated with each other.

 

[Akrasia]

...
TSR's Conan was a failure, GURPS' Conan was a failure, Deciphers'Lord of the Rings was a failure. But ICE's MERP and Mongoose's Conan are not.

Indeed.

Tolkien Enterprises was to blame for MERP's downfall. The game itself was an amazing success.

 

[Akrasia]

One thing that I don't understand: R. E. Howard died in 1936. Why are his stories not now public domain?

Also: if not Conan RQ, why not Kull RQ?

 

[SnowDog]

Why settle for the second best? In any case Kull is by far less known than Conan. In this case I would want to see an original S&S setting instead of having a licensed Kull product...

 

[AKAmra]

I know there have been a number of Conan RPGs in the past, but there is a a reason they all failed. Conan is not distinctive enough.

Conan is definitive swords-and-sorcery (decadent cities, iron-thewed barbarians, and wicked sorcerers) much as Lord of the Rings is default high-fantasy (wizards, elves, dwarves, dragons). Where's the unique twist that makes for a different game? Much as I love REH's work, let's admit that there's nothing much that sets it apart; nothing that, when you're there, tells you, "Yeah, this is Conan" the way you know, for example, a Fafhrd and the Mouser story when you're in one. You need that, if it's going to create a unique & successful game experience. It's no coincidence that half a dozen different people have written Conan stories!

This is why Stormbringer and Call of Cthulhu were successful as RPGs but Conan and Lord of the Rings weren't, and never will be. And it's why Mongoose shouldn't sink another dime into the Conan property.

I don't think that the past Conan RPG's "failed". There are a lot of dynamics in licensing IP for RPGs. I don't claim to know how the companies felt about the license in hindsight - do you? Did sales meet expectations? Did they make money or lose money?

I don't know if Mongoose is happy with the profit they made with d20 Conan; but as a gamer I'd say that it was a huge success. Look at the number of books published. There's always the, " I wish they had published book "whatever", but if your an OGL d20 Conan fan - you've got a lifetimes worth of gaming goodness out of the Mongoose run.

If Mongoose had used the Runequest rules for Conan I'd be a very happy gamer right now. I'd have all these "BRP family" Conan rules on my shelves.

I strongly disagree with your opinion. Conan isn't A S&S setting, it is THE S&S setting. All others pale in comparison. I'm not saying that there aren't other quality S&S settings, just that Conan has the greatest name recognition and is therefore the king of S&S.

Conan, Star Wars, Star Trek and The Lord of the Rings hold a special place in RPGs. They are icon settings and will be repeatedly published. It's just a matter of time before I can say, " I told you so".

 

[AKAmra]

...outmoded because of the demise of D20 as a concept.

Well, 'Pathfinder' is the 2nd most popular FRPG by a wide margin.

Hmm, what do you base this statement on? Pathfinder isn't even on my radar. Although I will say that I at least ran a few games of D&D 3.0+. D&D 4.0 hasn't gotten one second of my time.

D20 became "outmoded" for me when RQ came out. Your saying that Pathfinder is the second best selling (by a wide margin) table-top RPG to D&D?

 

[SnowDog]

Funny thing, that OGL (d20 system). The good thing was that it allowed a lot of new game companies a boost to produce their own material which in turn game a healthy injection to RPG markets.

The bad thing was that any new game being published was using this same system (that I never got familiar with). Not to mention that it was also used in the settings where it was less than perfect fit. Granted, there were nice and innovative variations (like d20 Conan and SpyCraft) to the system.

I am glad that Mongoose published all these books to support d20 Conan. Still, I would be even happier if Conan would see the light of day using MRQII rules.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

One thing that I don't understand: R. E. Howard died in 1936. Why are his stories not now public domain?

Also: if not Conan RQ, why not Kull RQ?

There is an untested legal issue (which is very likely wrong) at the heart of this.

Certain properties are "licensed" to corporations, not individuals (I believe it was Edgar Rice Burroughs that started it all off). This "incorporation" was done as an attempt by the owner to get around the copyright laws that limit the copyright period (now 90 years I think).

However, copyright does not strictly-speaking allow rights allocation to a corporation (copyright being assigned to the author or artist)... but importantly, doesn't say that this is not allowed.

This ambiguity is used by corporations that hold copyrights to claim ownership and copyright after the period following the author's death... and as corporations never die, they merely change directors, this means forever.

I believe none of these holding arrangements have been tested in court purely on grounds of cost — and it would cost a lot to contest them, as the holders are typically quite wealthy, and would fight hard to keep their cash-cows.

So, unless you have millions to spend in legal fees, or know someone really, really rich who has a burning desire for a property to enter the Public Domain, it'll likely stay the way it is.

The bottom line is the "House of Mouse" has serious political and financial clout.

I'm not a copyright lawyer, but the above was explained to me by a barrister that does specialise in copyright — but one that had drunk a few glasses of wine....

 

[kintire]

That said, much of Howard's work is on wikisource

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

One thing that I don't understand: R. E. Howard died in 1936. Why are his stories not now public domain?

Also: if not Conan RQ, why not Kull RQ?

There is an untested legal issue (which is very likely wrong) at the heart of this.

Certain properties are "licensed" to corporations, not individuals (I believe it was Edgar Rice Burroughs that started it all off). This "incorporation" was done as an attempt by the owner to get around the copyright laws that limit the copyright period (now 90 years I think).

However, copyright does not strictly-speaking allow rights allocation to a corporation (copyright being assigned to the author or artist)... but importantly, doesn't say that this is not allowed.

This ambiguity is used by corporations that hold copyrights to claim ownership and copyright after the period following the author's death... and as corporations never die, they merely change directors, this means forever.

I believe none of these holding arrangements have been tested in court purely on grounds of cost — and it would cost a lot to contest them, as the holders are typically quite wealthy, and would fight hard to keep their cash-cows.

So, unless you have millions to spend in legal fees, or know someone really, really rich who has a burning desire for a property to enter the Public Domain, it'll likely stay the way it is.

The bottom line is the "House of Mouse" has serious political and financial clout.

I'm not a copyright lawyer, but the above was explained to me by a barrister that does specialise in copyright — but one that had drunk a few glasses of wine....

It's while since I studied copyright law, but I think it's pretty clear in UK law that copyright expires 70 years after the death of the last surviving author of a work, regardless of who owns the copyright at that point (section 12(2) of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988).

I suspect the real difficulties for producing a game based on the Conan stories are (1) later authors have added to Howard's original works, so nothing invented by those authors could (yet) be included; and more importantly (2) I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that "Conan" has been registered by someone as a trade mark - and trade marks do not expire (though registration must be renewed from time to time). And would there be any point in producing a Conan game if you couldn't call it that?

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

You are right in that it is 70 years in the UK... however it is higher in the US. The point being that the US copyright period is what everyone goes by—the financial risk is simply too great.

As you mentioned, trademark is another issue to consider too.

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

You are right in that it is 70 years in the UK... however it is higher in the US. The point being that the US copyright period is what everyone goes by—the financial risk is simply too great.

Fair point. Duration there seems to be 95 years since date of publication (for pre-1978 works, which of course Howard's are). So the original Howard stories still have another 20-odd years to run.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I once saw an Australian web-site that had a few of the early Edgar Rice Burroughs 'Barsoom' stories on it (written before Edgar Rice Burroughs Inc.). At the time copyright in Australia was 50 years after the author's death.

About a month later I went back, only to see a notification that the site had removed all ERB material as it was still in US copyright, and they had received a heavy legal notice from Edgar Rice Burroughs Inc..

Even though they were within the legality of Australian law, they were "chilled" into US compliance.

So, when the copyright for 'Steamboat Willy' comes around to ending, expect to see effective global copyright periods go up again.

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

I once saw an Australian web-site that had a few of the early Edgar Rice Burroughs 'Barsoom' stories on it (written before Edgar Rice Burroughs Inc.). At the time copyright in Australia was 50 years after the author's death.

About a month later I went back, only to see a notification that the site had removed all ERB material as it was still in US copyright, and they had received a heavy legal notice from Edgar Rice Burroughs Inc..

Even though they were within the legality of Australian law, they were "chilled" into US compliance.

So, when the copyright for 'Steamboat Willy' comes around to ending, expect to see effective global copyright periods go up again.

Yeah - well lawyers have never had to actually have the law on their side to issue cease and desist letters! Financial muscle rules!

Or to put the flip side - there's a huge difference between having a right and being able to exercise it.

There is at least some RE Howard stuff on Project Gutenburg Australia. So I guess they're confident it's out of copyright there.

 

[Ravelli]

Conan, Star Wars, Star Trek and The Lord of the Rings hold a special place in RPGs. They are icon settings and will be repeatedly published. It's just a matter of time before I can say, " I told you so".

Well you can say that now, in part at least. As SnowDog mentioned upthread, Cubicle 7 are going to publish a new LotR rpg soon.

 

[Vile]

Conan is perfect for MRQ2. It worked pretty well for us with RQII back in the eighties, and that was without any published game books.

 

[danbuter]

You are right in that it is 70 years in the UK... however it is higher in the US. The point being that the US copyright period is what everyone goes by—the financial risk is simply too great.

Fair point. Duration there seems to be 95 years since date of publication (for pre-1978 works, which of course Howard's are). So the original Howard stories still have another 20-odd years to run.

You realize that the time will be extended in 15 or so years to something like 125 years, right? You can thank the Disney Corporation .

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I did mention the up-coming elephant of 'Steamboat Willy' a few posts ago.

However, as HalfOrc HalfBiscuit pointed out, trademark issues are probably the biggest potential obstacle.

All this even before any talk of whether MRQII is a "good fit" for 'Conan' too—and that's a whole other argument!!!

 

[AKAmra]

I did mention the up-coming elephant of 'Steamboat Willy' a few posts ago.

However, as HalfOrc HalfBiscuit pointed out, trademark issues are probably the biggest potential obstacle.

All this even before any talk of whether MRQII is a "good fit" for 'Conan' too—and that's a whole other argument!!!

I've been involved in the "Can MRQ do Conan?" arguments on the Conan D20 sub-forum a number of times. The arguments basically boiled down to d20 diehards that were arguing because they didn't want d20 Conan to end and those that don't understand MRQ(Basic Role Playing). MRQ(BRP) can certainly do Conan, and do it better for fans of MRQ(BRP).

I would hope that arguments that MRQ(BRP) can't "do" Conan wouldn't carry much weight in this sub-forum; because the arguments are just plain wrong and dumb for anyone that understands the systems.

And for the record; I never said that d20 couldn't "do" Conan (I think that argument would be equally wrong and dumb). I do think that a MRQ(BRP) flavored Conan would be much more appealing to some gamers (like me).