Geography question

urdinaran

Mongoose
Been running my group through Brythunia for a bit and it reminded me about a possible error in the mapping/description in the area.

Why is it that the Yellow river (Nemedia/Brythunia border) looks as if it connects to the Red river (southern Nemedia), yet the yellow river is described as flowing into the Vakariel swamp to the north? The Red river eventually leads to the sea.

Every now and then I notice little discrepancies, just thought you'd like to know. Any others out there that anyone has noticed?
 
That comes about because of the source materials. The pastiche novels have it one way, the comics have it another. The maps the artists use to base their own maps often have their own errors which get continued on.

A good example of this is, as I have said before, the mountains around Khauran. Someone made a map with the Kezankians connecting with the Pyrrhenian mountains, which is an error and not consistent with Howard's description. Later mappers, instead of doing their own research, used that map to create their map - thus the error continues. Even though the AE and ROK map corrects this, the map in the original core rules and the map used in the new novels show Khauran to be a mountainous nation.

There are a lot of errors in all the Conan maps (from the Gnome Press maps, to the Ace/Lancer maps to the comic book maps and onward) because of these reasons. The Black Kingdoms and Stygia maps are horribly flawed, as is Hyrkania and almost everything to the east of the Vilayet. (The best map of Stygiawas produced by Dale Rippke).

Another example is the Westermarck. Almost all the maps incorrectly place it between the Thunder and Black Rivers. I didn't even notice this was wrong until I was doing research for ROK, and I had to lobby very hard to get the map changed and have the Westermarck placed in its correct location according to Howard's texts. Another difference between the ROK/AE map and the original in the core book is that location change. But since most Hyborian cartographers use older maps to base their maps on, few of these maps have the Westermarck correctly placed. Most cartographers are not Howard scholars - they presume earlier cartogrophers had it right.

The Yellow River is not from a Howard source, so it is hard to decide where it really lies when all the pastiches treat it differently. One storyline in the Savage Sword of Conan actually had Brythunia and Nemedia as coastal nations! Obviously, when authors cannot be bothered to research the source materials, why should the map-makers do any different. No matter what, it is impossible to create a map that justifies all the source material due to such conflicts.

So, while I believe it is possible to have a map consistent with what Robert E. Howard wrote, once pastiche elements are included (such as Yellow River and the capital of Brythunia), the maps are doomed to be inaccurate and confused. However, to produce such a map, the cartographer needs to let go of all previous maps except those hand-drawn sketches produced by Howard - and go from there according to the various texts.
 
So what map would you say is the most accurate?

Before Mongoose i used the Gurps Conan setting with a map from the PBM Hybori wars (and i still have the poster map from the old Conan RPG ).
 
I believe someone said the map in the AE and the large poster map were now considered official in all Conan things. Therefore I assume this is the most accurate... i could be wrong.

SS
 
Most accurate? Easy. Howard's maps (published in "The Coming of Conan" by Del Rey) are the most accurate.

Other than south of the Styx and east of the Vilayet, the ROK map (published in poster form with the GM's screen) probably is the next most, although it does have a few problems like all the maps do.

Dale Rippke's map is the only accurate map of Stygia and the Black Kingdoms I have seen. I prefer this map of Hyrkania and Khitai (although Stygia and Black Kingdoms are wrong). Another version with a REALLY wrong Black Kingdoms, but I like Hyrkania. One of these days I will try my own map with Dale Rippke's Stygia and Black Kingdoms added to some of those maps' elements.
 
Awesome! Can't wait to get RoK! Well, my campaign will be in Aquilonia/Zamora, so I don't have problems with Stygia yet. Anyway I'll check those maps. Thanks for the links!
 
BTW, the soon to be released third volume in the Del Rey collection will have a third map drawn by REH. This is suppose to be the final map he did of his setting and the most detailed.
 
K, thanks for the info guys. I pretty much ignore the reference that the yellow river flows north; makes no sense.

What about Zamboula? From the REH stories, I thought it would be further south, not so far into Turanian lands.
 
I too think that the placement of Zamboula is incorrect; it should be further south in the desert. REH stated that it lay on the caravan route linking Stygia and Shem with the east, the ROK does this to be sure, but goes a long way round to do it.
 
Yeah, couldn't agree more. Zamboula needs to be a lot further south.

My understanding is that it was a city captured by the Turanians from the Stygians, and was Turan's most southerly holding.

But on the map in ROK (handsome as the map is) it's up on a similar latitude with Sultanapur (and distantly north of Aghrapur).

I'm pretty fond of it's placement on the map below...

conanmap.jpg
 
I came up with an idea that the Turanians, tired of all the problems with 'old' Zamboula; simply built a new town on the ROK, called it Zamboula and just let the old one fade from memory.
"I am but a trader from the East. Tell me, where is fabled Zamboula?"
"It is up this fine road here, honoured visitor."
"Not in the desert?"
"A fable, nothing more. Would I lie to you?"
Of course, what the satrap of 'real' Zamboula thinks of this; effectively being thrown to the wolves, is another matter. Perhaps he enters into an alliance with Stygia or Shem and a war ensures with Turan, or a coup seizes power and the city becomes truly independant ( now ruled from Darfar).
 
I believe accurate maps are a product of the modern age Hyborian maps are based on the collective accounts and works of many different sources which means there are bound to be some errors,ommisions and interpretation look at the first Conan film he is freed in the 'east' somwhere that I take to be Khitia/Hykrania and runs first to a distinctly hyborian looking witch who proclaims he has come from the north and then the next place name is Zamora, so what happened to Turan and the Vilayet sea in that plot ?

As for the Black kingdoms and other faraway places Howard and other writers describe them only as far as the story they are writting needs and even Conan could have got a bit 'turned around' whilst fleeing from one of those defated armys and got his locations a bit muddled

Which means that nobody can totally rely on any map least of all players, yes you should see the walls of Zamboula raising from the desert sands here but all you can see are endless tracts of dunes.... perhaps it really does lie far to the south...
 
Evil T
Oh I agree completely, hence why in my example plotline it would be relatively easy to mislead the trader. Conan RPG doesn't need detailed day to day overland movement, although you can put it in if you want. I think my main gripe was that I wanted to enlarge the map to A1 size in all it's glory and put it on my study wall so that I could gloat over it; now I've got to move Zamboula back to where I think it should be thus messing up the colour copy

Anyway, didn't one of the Marvel stories give either Nemedia or Brythunia a coastline?
 
Vincent,

What do you think of the way that Nemedia is portrayed on the current, official RPG map? It seems to me that the country is far too small based on the misplacement of the western border.

The western border, and the Border Range mountains, are too far to the east as compared to two other major political landmarks.

First, shouldn't both the border and the mountains drop straight south from the furthest southwestern border point of the Border Kingdoms? Second, this maps also portrays the border of Nemedia/Aquilonia as originating from the apex of the northern borders of Ophir and thence north, whereas it should be further to the west, starting between 1/3 and 1/2 down the southwest angling northwestern border of Ophir, toward Ianthe.

With this mistake and others, Aquilonia seems positively huge by comparison to just about every other nation, and though it is one of the most powerful nations of the time, it is certainly not as large as all the Black Kingdoms put together! On Howard's maps, it is about the size of Cimmeria and the Border Kingdoms combined.

Perhaps this map can be passed off as the "Official Map of the World" according to Aquilonian cartographers... thus, its Aquilonia-centrism. Small Nemedia, small other Hyborean kingdoms due to old emnities, larger Aquilonia due to political considerations plus they wanted to show more detail of Aquilonia, etc. Hyrkania and the south are all wrong because they only know of the lands through myth and rumor (and what Conan is telling the cartogrpahers, mostly, and he was more interested in the treasure and the wenches than exact cartography most of the time).

It wouldn't be the first time an "official" map was changed...
 
Didn't 'Phoenix on the Sword' have Conan explaining to Prospero that he was drawing a map of all the lands he'd adventurered in; with Prospero marvelling at why anyone should want one (don't have the book to hand ATM but that's something how the conversation went.)
 
Brass Jester said:
Didn't 'Phoenix on the Sword' have Conan explaining to Prospero that he was drawing a map of all the lands he'd adventurered in; with Prospero marvelling at why anyone should want one (don't have the book to hand ATM but that's something how the conversation went.)
Yeah, Prospero was amazed to see him add the lands of Vanaheim and Asgard; he had considered them almost mythical. And these lands aren't even that far from Aquilonia; just goes to show that people of the Hyborian Age didn't know the geography of their world all that well.
 
JamesMishler said:
Perhaps this map can be passed off as the "Official Map of the World" according to Aquilonian cartographers... thus, its Aquilonia-centrism. Small Nemedia, small other Hyborean kingdoms due to old emnities, larger Aquilonia due to political considerations plus they wanted to show more detail of Aquilonia, etc. Hyrkania and the south are all wrong because they only know of the lands through myth and rumor (and what Conan is telling the cartogrpahers, mostly, and he was more interested in the treasure and the wenches than exact cartography most of the time).

It wouldn't be the first time an "official" map was changed...

That's a neat idea :)
 
JamesMishler said:
Vincent,

What do you think of the way that Nemedia is portrayed on the current, official RPG map? It seems to me that the country is far too small based on the misplacement of the western border.

It is a little small, but not even Howard made it the same size consistently, according to the maps in The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian. The western border should be moved further westward about 150-200 miles.

Calling it an Aquilonia-centric map would be appropriate.
 
Oddly enough the problems we are having with a accurate Hyborian map are rather IC. The Hyborian technical prowess is behind even Bronze Age standards- they would have no real method to take accurate measurements or relative bearing for the purpose of making accurate maps. I don't even recall anyone ever mentioning a compass or a sextant in any Conan story. So every map of the Hyborian world would be unique to the one making it and limited to their understanding of geography. Considering that even most able navigators likely thought the world was flat meant that they began their effort to create an accurate map started by being based on a false premise. So thus we find ourselves in the same boat as the Hyborians- we'll never really know where we are in the world relative to anywhere else save in crude terms....
 
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