Frost Giant's Daughter and Ice Worm must be later....

[Supplement Four]

One of the benefits of playing with a couple of players who haven't read a lot of Conan, but like the universe, is that I can take the classic stories and translate them into the game.

With my budding campaign set in the north, I was thinking of doing just that with Lair of the Iceworm and The Frost Giant's Daughter.

So, I looked up Frost Giants and the Snow Devil...and, man! Those creatures are waaayyy too strong to put up against two low level PCs.

I think Mongoose is correct in statting them the way they did (Snow Devil is HD 14, while Frost Giants are HD 10). But, it also makes me think that Mongoose must favor the earlier Conan chronolgies of Miller/Clark, and Jordan, and de Camp over the (seems to be "in flavor") Ripke timeline. Ripke has Conan engaging Frost Giants earliest in his career (no Ice Worm as Ripke's is a Howard-purist chrono). We can assume that Conan is a low level character when he leaves his Clan. In Frost Giants, he defeats two of the beasties in single combat. No tricks. Just good old blood and guts and sharpened steel.

So... Conan's gotta be higher level when he meets these two brutes.

That, or the Frost Giants, and HD 10, is too high (I don't think so).

....Or, Conan was at-least 10th level when he left his clan.

....Or, the game shouldn't use "levels" at all--another good argument for using skill-based rpgs instead of "levels & hit points", just as Skywalker would have had a hard time firing that proton topedo into the exhaust vent if he was a low level character vs. one created in a skills-based game.


...Or, the Frost Giants were really HD 5 Giant-kin!

 

[treeplanter]

or that d20 is crappy at emulate Conan story

 

[Supplement Four]

or that d20 is crappy at emulate Conan story

That was my second to last point...

Although, I don't have the issues with d20 that some have. I hated it for a long time, but the Conan RPG has shown me that d20 can be done "right".

I've looked at several other d20 and AD&D variants, and Conan, by far, is the best rules set. I'd probably go with AD&D 2E in second place, but a fairly distant second.

Still, if someone nabs up the Conan license and develops it with a skills based system, I'm going to be happy as a Shemite forgetting to discount his goods.

I always thought D6 would make for a great Conan game. I loved WEG's Star Wars so much. I bet the Hyborian Age touches would be fantastic.

 

[kintire]

....Or, the game shouldn't use "levels" at all--another good argument for using skill-based rpgs instead of "levels & hit points", just as Skywalker would have had a hard time firing that proton topedo into the exhaust vent if he was a low level character vs. one created in a skills-based game.

While skills based games have their advantages, this isn't one of them. You start off with low skills just as you start off at low levels! The problem here is the RPG advancement assumption. Most systems of whatever type start you off weak and build you up in power, whether that's raising skills or boosting levels.

In Frost Giants, he defeats two of the beasties in single combat. No tricks. Just good old blood and guts and sharpened steel

Does he? Are you sure?

Frost Giant's Daughter is one of Howard's wierder tales, and I think casually assuming the physical reality of everything in it is a little naive. Remember the actual physical evidence the Aesir provide at the end? Conan did run into the wilderness, and Atali did exist (Conan is still holding her mantle). The tracking Aesir never saw any dead frost giants, or signs of a fight. Them missing Atali's footprints is explainable, since she was running over the snow presumeably magically, but two giant corpses should have leapt to the eye!

I think you can take this three ways:
1) Conan slipped into an "otherworld" and fought the giants there.
2) Conan's mind and spirit was drawn into an other world, semi seperating his sould from his body. Two spirits tries to rip it completely away in order to feed it to Ymir, but his will was to strong and they failed. With no undertsanding of the nature of this mental battle, Conan envisaged it as a physical one.
3) Atali worked Conan into a mental state where he was susceptible to illusions, and then tried to slay him with a rather more intricate version of the sort of illusion spell Xaltotun used to kill an inconvenient witness in Hour of the Dragon. Again, Conan resists.

My personal preference falls on 2, but neither 2 nor 3 requires Conan to have anything more than a good will save, a good fort save (so that exhaustion is not sapping his will) and not having the Nordic cultural baggage that makes him buy into Frost Giants as invincible. And, perhaps, not being a follower of Ymir.

Edit: oh and in Lair of the Ice Worm (a good pastiche) he uses his knowledge of the beast's weak point against it: though I agree that this is probably Conan returning from one of his later vists to Cimmeria. He is rather more composed in the presence of wierdness than when young.

 

[Supplement Four]

Interesting take on FGD, kintire. I tend to think it did happen in the physical world, and the piece of Atali's clothing was the proof.

But, I can definitely see the story "read" a different way, as in what you're proposing.

 

[Spectator]

Wow, I never thought of #3 as a possibility, but I really like it, since Hypnotism is such a powerful force in Hyborian Magic.

I can imagine the Frost Giants as a regionally attuned "Dread Serpent" spell, after all, no-one would believe snakes are attacking them on a glacier!!!

My summation: Atali; probably not a goddess, but a mid-to-high level sorcerer, the gossamer silk was real and hers, the frost giants were but figments of his imagination. The lack of footprints could be some hitherto unknown norse magic/ nature magic spell not yet documented in the CONAN RPG, it may appear in the eventual release of Skrolls of Skelos Pt. 2.

So Conan is cutting through a mountain pass, has a battle, and is the last man standing. Atali can't not but notice the commotion of the battle and comes to watch. After the last man standing is Conan, she assume (correctly) that this powerful warrior's sacrifice would greatly add to her Base Power points.

She cast her spell (previously mentioned) norse/nature magic spell "leave no trace" and entices Conan to follow. He gives chase, she, due to her ability to haul ass through the deep snow, has time to cast the Norse variation of "Dread Serpent"

Much to her surprise, he doesn't succumb to the two castings she prepared and the filthy brute nabs her silky loin cloth. She then hauls ass out of there with help of a general "illusion" spell from Skrolls of Skelos to prevent anyone following her back to alpine lair.

Just my two cents, less weird now that the potential debunking occurred.
I never really thought about it until someone mentioned that Frost Giant bodies were not recovered which makes a hell of a lot of sense.

 

[Supplement Four]

My summation: Atali; probably not a goddess, but a mid-to-high level sorcerer, the gossamer silk was real and hers, the frost giants were but figments of his imagination.

I think of the story more as a tale of Greek Myth, gods and demigods.

 

[kintire]

My summation: Atali; probably not a goddess, but a mid-to-high level sorcerer

I wouldn't quite go that far: the story is a wierd one, the gossamer garment Conan grabs is described as unearthly and the hints that Atali is not human and that Ymir is more than a name are quite strong. As S4 says Howard's gods are Homeric with a strong dash of Lovecraft. Atali fits well as a minor deity/demon (In Howard, the difference between Gods and Demons is mostly PR), perhaps best described in our terms as a Nymph.

I am unconvinced by the Frost Giants, however. At least, by the ones Conan "met". Just because those were illusions doesn't mean no such things exist of course.

In the end, we can't be sure, which is almost certaintly what Howard intended!

 

[Supplement Four]

Extremely interesting take on the story, kintire. Very thought-provoking. Thanks for sharing.

In the end, though, I really think you're seeing more in Howard's story than what he put there. I believe your take, while very "neat", is the result of over analysing.

I saw, once, an article about the founding of Shem, and that the "Sons of Shem" actually referred to one of Noah's (from the Bible) sons who survived the flood.

While that's a very "neat" idea, I'm not convinced that's where Howard's mind was when he created the kingdom of Shem.

But...I love discussing and reading opinion on these types of takes. Sometimes they lead to some interesting retconning.

 

[kintire]

In the end, though, I really think you're seeing more in Howard's story than what he put there. I believe your take, while very "neat", is the result of over analysing.

Perhaps. I am, of course, deliberately using Conan d20 speak for the "spells" she was using. Equally, Howard may or may not have bothered to analyse exactly what Atali was, beyond "the Frost Giant's daughter". However, I really don't think you can take it all as a material world event: where were the Frost Giants when the Aesir came past?

Also, I think the language used is very clear:

He looked up; there was a strangeness about all the landscape that he could not place or define — an unfamiliar tinge to earth and sky

Above him the skies glowed and crackled with strange lights and gleams. The snow shone weirdly, now frosty blue, now icy crimson, now cold silver. Through a shimmering icy realm of enchantment Conan plunged doggedly onward, in a crystalline maze where the only reality was the white body dancing across the glittering snow beyond his reach- ever beyond his reach.

He did not wonder at the strangeness of it all, not even when two gigantic figures rose up to bar his way.

The land lay like a dream before me. Only now do all things seem natural and familiar

Something is going on other than running across normal mundane country and meeting a couple of very tall guys!

 

[rabindranath72]

I too went with kintire's explanation when running Conan in Sorcerer & Sword; he was caught in a "mystic otherworld".

 

[cbrunish]

This is really and interesting discusion. I have been reading Conan since 1982 and I never really thought about this. I started reading the Ace books with L Sprague DeCamp's version of Conan history. But if the real history is that Conan was young then this would explain how Conan defeated 2 Frost Giants. Especially in regards to the Conan Rules.

Thank you all for an interesting insight!! Now with the fact that there will be no new supplements for Conan, this really makes this forum more interesting.

 

[kintire]

If you're interested in Howard's take on gods, you should read The Cairn on the Headland.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Cairn_on_the_Headland