French Military Success

[Maedhros]

So I would say the present remarks in question are not realy based on modern history, but essentially only WWII, and more specifically the first couple of months against germany, no? I could be very wrong, I'm no military expert.

After the First, Second and Third Battles of Cassino stalled, and the invasion of Anzio failed to provide the desired breakout, the Axis lines in Italy were finally pierced in May 1944 by General Alphonse Juin and his (nominally) French (-African) divisions during Operation Diadem.

In this case, the (nominally) French succeeded where American, British, Indian and ANZAC troops failed.

 

[rust]

Another famous example would be Bir Hakeim, where a small French
unit stopped Rommel's advance across North Africa for 16 days and
thereby ruined the German plans for the conquest of Egypt.

 

[cbrunish]

It's interesting to think that the French are military incompitents. But in reallity the French only had two really bad blunders in war. The Franco-Prussian War and WWII.

In the Franco-Prussian war the French had Napoleon III, whom was not like his ancester, was not a military genius. And WWII is understandable due to the French losing a whole generation of people due to WWI. At the time of WWII the German generals were looking towards the next war and the French were looking at the last war. This is unfortunatly is common to most generals (looking at the last war, that is).

As an American, I honestly am not fond of the French, but I can not disparage there honour or military. The French have a rich history which can not be ignored. This is actually true to any culture. Islamic culture at one time was the most advanced in medicine and math. Italian is rich in banking and art. German is rich in science and music. Russia has some wonderful architecture. These are just examples, and I have not even touched on African, Indian, or the Orient.

All of these cultures are what make up the "Human Race". Which is why, in the future we have such an easy time defeating the Viliani! (See how I brought everything back to Traveller)

 

[Tathlum]

Why "as an American"? Why not make up your own mind on people?

 

[Dave Chase]

Why "as an American"? Why not make up your own mind on people?

Cultural type thing. Most smart and self educated individuals will know the difference and see the value of things them selves.

The media, educational and general mindset of the American system is that we are better than everyone else. But most of those have never traveled or met others from other countries.

BTW, I am an American, so don't anyone get pissy because I speak poorly of several things. I believe there is lots of room for improvement of which will not take away any of people's past, history or selfworth.

Dave Chase

 

[Gaidheal]

Why "as an American"? Why not make up your own mind on people?

Funnily enough I'd argue that "as an American" (USA) you're hugely indebted to the French and ought to be grateful, by default, not hostile. Of course, I agree with Tathlum; avoid the propaganda and 'national loyalties' and just judge individuals on their own merits not their cultural identity or nationality.

 

[Stofsk]

Why "as an American"? Why not make up your own mind on people?

Funnily enough I'd argue that "as an American" (USA) you're hugely indebted to the French and ought to be grateful, by default, not hostile.

Why? Just because France helped out America when they were fighting you guys in that little war of independence? By that logic, Americans should feel grateful to the French and animosity toward the British.

But that would be stupid. As an American friend of mine said, any debt they owe France has long been paid.

 

[Gaidheal]

But that would be stupid. As an American friend of mine said, any debt they owe France has long been paid.

No, that would be logical, as you just argued yourself (as logical as 'hating' France, at any rate) and the "you're useless militarily" would make slightly more sense, too, levelled against the people they beat as opposed to the people who helped beat them.

Incidentally, not just because the French fought the British but also because a lot of the thinking behind it, philosophically, came from the continent, too.

 

[rust]

From a German point of view, it is both surprising and amusing that
the UK and US citizens, allies of the French for quite a while, often
have that strange animosity towards the French, while we, historical-
ly mostly their enemies, meanwhile get along with them very well -
arguably better than with any other of our neighbouring nations.

 

[Gaidheal]

An irony not lost on most educated EU citizens...

 

[Stofsk]

But that would be stupid. As an American friend of mine said, any debt they owe France has long been paid.

No, that would be logical,

How is it logical for America to feel indebted to a France that doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't existed for over two centuries? America's republic has continued unbroken since it's inception, but France was (at the time of the war) a monarchy. Today, it's what, up to it's fifth republic?

It isn't logical for modern day Americans to feel indebted or grateful to modern day France for something that happened two hundred years ago.

as you just argued yourself (as logical as 'hating' France, at any rate) and the "you're useless militarily" would make slightly more sense, too, levelled against the people they beat as opposed to the people who helped beat them.

I didn't argue that it was logical to hate France for perceived military blunders or accusations of uselessness.

It would be logical to scorn them though.

Incidentally, not just because the French fought the British but also because a lot of the thinking behind it, philosophically, came from the continent, too.

True enough.

 

[Gaidheal]

How is it logical for America to feel indebted to a France that doesn't even exist anymore, and hasn't existed for over two centuries? America's republic has continued unbroken since it's inception, but France was (at the time of the war) a monarchy. Today, it's what, up to it's fifth republic?

A fallacious argument that amounts to an attempt to argue that political changes mean France is not the same but changes of similar magnitude mean the USA is. No dice, mate. In fairness, you're probably just ignorant of the political system of both.

It isn't logical for modern day Americans to feel indebted or grateful to modern day France for something that happened two hundred years ago.

Nor indeed for us to be 'grateful' to people who fought and died in either "World War" actually, for the very same logic and I do agree. I said "As logical as hating France [for helping them]", if you recall. Once again nul points, mon ami!

It would be logical to scorn them though.

Err, no. You might want to think this one through.

Incidentally ... the continent, too.

True enough.

Agreed.

 

[captainjack23]

As an american, I'd like to point out that the latest round of French bashing was instituted due to their cowardly refusal to accept, condone or participate in the invasion of Iraq.....becuase (get this) they doubted that there was adequate proof of the existance of WMD in Iraqi hands......wow. Imagine that . Guess they got pwned, huh ?


Still, before the EU gets too smug about uneducated Americans, they may do well to remember times their countries have had their opinions manipulated by selfish agitprop.

 

[rust]

It would be logical to scorn them though.

Well, scorning the French ... :lol:

Let us look at some facts ... 8)

a) An example of the French forces' performance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bir_Hakeim

b) An example of the US forces' performance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Kasserine_Pass

 

[captainjack23]

It would be logical to scorn them though.

I see...I see......A big hook...with...a worm impaled on it....hmmmmm. Bites anyone ?


Seriously guys, this is just the IRL version of the AntiMgT argument over at COTI. Me....ME BEAT CHEST ! ME FIND TRIVIAL FACT TO TRUMPET ! ME TAKE IRRELEVENT SIDES IN SILLY ARGUMENT ! ME PRETEND EMOTIONS EQUAL TO RATIONAL THOUGHT ! ME EQUATE SELF WORTH WITH SUCCESS IN ARGUMENT !

....and, just like with the MgT bash fest, while the proles rage on, someone else is laughing all the way to the bank. Now, in Matt's, case, I don't mind one little bit....but when it comes to re-enforcing these kinds of divisions....um. :?

 

[Gaidheal]

Err, no it's not, emotionally attached as you might be to the COTI thing.

Indeed, I'm not at all emotionally invested in this but I can follow logic rather well and make 'easy points' to paraphrase you, from relatively trivial facts. This is the case, of course, because it's trivially easy to show why 'Frog Bashing' is daft, especially for a yank and in any case simply doesn't hold up to the light of day when you bother to look at history. End of.

 

[captainjack23]

Err, no it's not, emotionally attached as you might be to the COTI thing.

Indeed, I'm not at all emotionally invested in this but I can follow logic rather well and make 'easy points' to paraphrase you, from relatively trivial facts. This is the case, of course, because it's trivially easy to show why 'Frog Bashing' is daft, especially for a yank and in any case simply doesn't hold up to the light of day when you bother to look at history. End of.

Hmmm. My first post vanished. I'll take that as a suggestion to ratchet my antiFrogBasher rhetoric down several notches.

Okay, toss out the COTI reference as it obscured my main point, and made it sound like I was suggesting that both sides are at fault. They aren't. Also, the out of context/trivial fact comment you object to was squarely aimed at cherry picking examples of French (or American) military poltroonery; not the plethora of easily found counter examples.


here's the main point:

We are in complete agreement that Frog bashing is retarded, especially for a Yank, but also for anyone who thinks that allowing bigotry to trump reason is an acceptable agenda. Who benefits from demonizing a long term ally and free republic, generally whilst aggrandizing the accomplishments of a small totalitarian and fascist oligarchy ? End of, indeed.

 

[atpollard]

As an american, I'd like to point out that the latest round of French bashing was instituted due to their cowardly refusal to accept, condone or participate in the invasion of Iraq.....becuase (get this) they doubted that there was adequate proof of the existance of WMD in Iraqi hands......wow. Imagine that . Guess they got pwned, huh ?

500 metric tons of uranuim:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/07/iraq.uranium/index.html

 

[captainjack23]

As an american, I'd like to point out that the latest round of French bashing was instituted due to their cowardly refusal to accept, condone or participate in the invasion of Iraq.....becuase (get this) they doubted that there was adequate proof of the existance of WMD in Iraqi hands......wow. Imagine that . Guess they got pwned, huh ?

500 metric tons of uranuim:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/07/iraq.uranium/index.html

Interesting, and from todays news, but note,
"He said yellowcake uranium is a commonly traded commodity used for nuclear power generation. It is not enriched and cannot be used without first going through a complicated enrichment process, he said, but because of the unstable nature of Iraq, the United States and the Iraqi government decided it should be moved out of that country. Iraq has no nuclear power generating plants."

To avoid an nasty OT argument, I'll conceed that given the lack of current nuclear plants, it may mean that the French were in the wrong not to participate in invading , to the extent that this can be considered a clear and present threat, as the then current administration presented it. Even if it has only recently been found. Take those as proven.

So, then, do you feel that that makes the French cowards ?

 

[rust]

We are in complete agreement that Frog bashing is retarded, especially for a Yank, but also for anyone who thinks that allowing bigotry to trump reason is an acceptable agenda.

I would add that "Frog bashing" annoys me simply because it ignores the
historical facts.