Fistfight damage

[badpixie]

It always amuses me when discussions on melee weapons etc always bring out a host of martial artists/ re-enactors/ ex KGB assassins etc detailing the merits of one version of gaming reality over another.

Better I think to accept that any gaming system, to be playable, is abstracted and simplified. Either that or relive the horrors of chivalry & sorcery.

 

[AlphaWhelp]

something balls to the wall crazy here, how about a punch that does 2d6-6 damage? This stresses the minimalistic damage nature of a punch while simultaneously allowing for the odd and rare one punch knockout from exceptionally strong & well trained boxers or martial artists. (including the fact that many punches might not deal damage at all, such as a blow that strikes the shoulder).

I personally am fine with a punch dealing just 1d6 damage, but I thought I'd offer some input for an idea I might use in my game if I was unhappy with the 1d6 punch damage for some reason.

 

[rust]

It always amuses me when discussions on melee weapons etc always bring out a host of martial artists ...

This should hardly be surprising. People expect the real world equivalents
of the setting to concur with their real world experience, because any con-
tradiction is likely to damage their suspension of disbelief.

Better I think to accept that any gaming system, to be playable, is abstracted and simplified.

True, but it should still be internally consistent and plausible.

 

[Faelan Niall]

Better I think to accept that any gaming system, to be playable, is abstracted and simplified. Either that or relive the horrors of chivalry & sorcery.

C&S is not that bad. Phoenix Command now that is truly like staring into the mouth of madness.

 

[BP]

... how about a punch that does 2d6-6 damage?

-4 to 6? Not sure I follow that... though having negative damage represent self-inflicted damage to the fist of the punch thrower works for me! (Having seen this RL on more than one occasion).

I would probably recommend using the effect of the to hit roll as damage - failure resulting in self inflicted damage of negative effect minus melee skill and success equaling positive effect plus skill. Thus a skilled fighter having both a higher chance to hit and more effective punch (and less chance of injuring himself badly).

 

[CosmicGamer]

... how about a punch that does 2d6-6 damage?

-4 to 6? Not sure I follow that... though having negative damage represent self-inflicted damage to the fist of the punch thrower works for me! (Having seen this RL on more than one occasion).

I would probably recommend using the effect of the to hit roll as damage - failure resulting in self inflicted damage of negative effect minus melee skill and success equaling positive effect plus skill. Thus a skilled fighter having both a higher chance to hit and more effective punch (and less chance of injuring himself badly).

Lets see... an unskilled (-3DM), low stat (lets say -1DM) character with a slightly below average roll of 5 on 2d6 before DM's. This would be a result of 1 (5 -4) with an effect of -7?

Put all that aside; I think this suggestion results in almost all attacks either hitting the opponent and doing damage or doing damage to the attacker. Might make combat quicker, but I'm attached to the system where there are dodges and punches that don't connect or are easily deflected.

 

[BP]

Good Points CosmicGamer :lol:

Bungered that suggestion all up - even left out regular 1d6 damage! [-3 DM for sleep impaired posting]

How about: Normal 1d6 plus effect (i.e. successful 8+ hit) with exceptional failure resulting in self inflicted damage of 1d6 minus melee skill (ignore all negatives).

Does bring up another issue - as with Athletics, not applying an untrained penalty to punching. The opponent can still dodge (per normal) but an undodging opponent is a pretty easy hit when within range, with normal Dex DMs handling the more coordinated and the klutzes.

 

[AlphaWhelp]

... how about a punch that does 2d6-6 damage?

-4 to 6? Not sure I follow that... though having negative damage represent self-inflicted damage to the fist of the punch thrower works for me! (Having seen this RL on more than one occasion).

negative damage is zero damage, there are several weapons in the game that have the possibility of inflicting negative damage, not to mention any fumbles of weapons that characters create using central supply catalog rules for designing custom equipment.

If I cause 5 damage to someone with 10 armor, I don't inflict 5 damage on myself.

 

[rust]

If I cause 5 damage to someone with 10 armor, I don't inflict 5 damage on myself.

This is not negative damage, it is positive damage that is insufficient to
penetrate the armour.

 

[hdan]

Good Points CosmicGamer :lol:
How about: Normal 1d6 plus effect (i.e. successful 8+ hit) with exceptional failure resulting in self inflicted damage of 1d6 minus melee skill (ignore all negatives).

How about this:

Melee is rolled as written but also takes -DM of opponent's Melee
Damage from a punch is the effect of the roll ONLY. (Want higher damage? Use a weapon.)

Exceptional success reduces target End to 0 immediately (KO).

The standard -3 DM for unskilled DOES apply, which means untrained fighters will take 3 more damage on a successful attack than a trained fighter.

This makes anyone with basic fighting skills (Melee-0) way more useful in a fight than someone without any skills, and allows trained fighters to get their edge and reduce their opponent's chance of harming them.

Most players will probably want to at least take a few self defense and introductory fighting courses if they don't learn to fight in their career.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Was thinking as I read about utilizing the Effect success results on page 50 of the CRb.
Effect -6 or more: Exceptional failure = Damage to attacker of Effect + 5 (1 pt at -6 effect)
Effect -2 to -5: = Average Failure = attacker doesn't take damage but maybe consider something happening as a result of missing? Loss of initiative or unable to dodge the next attack?
Effect -1: Marginal Failure = nothing, swing and a miss
Effect 0: Marginal Success = Blow lands but possibly no damage but some other effect like loss of initiative due to off balance from being hit or unable to dodge the next blow or -DM to next attack
Effect 1 to 5: Average Success = Instead of an additional 1d6 roll, damage = effect
Effect 6+ Exceptional Success: Have the player declare a specific attack and allow it on exceptional success. kick in the kneecap and break it, body blow breaking ribs, I'm going to give them a black eye...

Just thoughts off the top of my head for discussion.

 

[BP]

Was thinking as I read about utilizing the Effect success results on page 50 of the CRb. ...

8)

Those are pretty close to what I have in my homebrew combat rules for online play, though with different Exceptional effects.

Hadn't considered using explicit self-inflicted damage - my current Exceptional failure effect resulting in being more vulnerable to further attacks and those attacks being more effective (extension of average failure which makes one more vulnerable/less effective).

[My system is a little too radical to present here (and untested) as I don't use initiative and all attacks have a called option (using 1d6). I'm also playing with the idea of a points free damage system, ala ship and vehicle combat (which allows combat to extend to anything - as X point damage systems cannot handle ranges and forms of damage believably). This carries over into recovery and non-combat injuries - so ends up replacing a lot of OT mechanics.]

 

[dreamingbadger]

what about we don't change it and accept that its a gaming system with limitations...

 

[CosmicGamer]

what about we don't change it and accept that its a gaming system with limitations...

I typically go by what is written since my usual gaming is 'pick up' groups online and you need a common system that everyone uses.

But I also don't mind discussing options which will enhance peoples play - and not all people will agree as to what these are. If some gem arises that I like, I might include it in a game I ran but I'd never push another GM to use it.