Fistfight damage

[DFW]

Long and short of "REALITY" is that a man can be knocked out by a single punch or a combination of two punches, which is reflected in the rules. You might want to know something about the subject matter before you go making declarations about "REALITY".

Yes, and one punch can kill. However, both are very rare. (Was a volunteer fireman for a few years). What is YOUR expertise son?

Anyway, while it is possible to kill someone with one strike of a #2 pencil, I don't give them 3D6 on the weapon damage tables. ROFLMAO

 

[rust]

Most of the comments resulting in reduced damage essentially make unarmed combat pretty useless.

I see your point, and mostly agree. I do not think that reduced damage
would really solve the problem, in my view there should be different ty-
pes of damage, although I have no convincing idea how to handle it -
I am only sure that the current system does not work very well for a
specific type of unarmed combar.

Take a look at Norman Normal with his average UPP of 777xxx. If an
average unarmed combat hit causes an unmodified damage of 1D6, or
an average of 3.5 per hit, six such hits will kill him. In my view those six
hits are too lethal for a normal fight, but not lethal enough for the use of
martial arts with the intention to kill.

If Norman Normal wants to prevent serious injury through equipment and
rules, he can turn to a sport like boxing. However, even a hit under these
conditions has to do some damage, or no boxer would ever be knocked
out. An unmodified damage of 1 is the lowest option in this system, but
even then 21 hits would still kill Norman - too lethal for that kind of fight,
in my view, as boxers usually survive more than 21 hits.

In the end I see the current rules as barely acceptable for real unarmed
combat with the intention to seriously damage or kill, but as unacceptable
for any kind of unarmed combat below that level of aggression.

Of course, it is possible to treat low intensity fights in a purely narrative
way after comparing skills (if the characters involved have any relevant
skills, that is), but this would not fit well into our way of playing the game,
where such unarmed low intensity fights are comparatively common, whi-
le almost all high intensity fighting is done with weapons.

 

[hdan]

One way to handle this is to track the actual wounds using some sort of "Universal Wound Profile" (UWP - well, it SOUNDS Traveller-y, right?) and then have different healing profiles.

Some examples:

Puncture 104 - a puncture wound that took 4 End and 1 Str off the character
Impact 007 - a blunt trauma that took 7 End
Cut 450 - 4 Str, 5 Dex, 0 End slice.

You get the idea.

Each type wound heals at a different rate. "Punch" damage that doesn't break a bone (that is, doesn't reduce the stat from full to zero) might heal at 1 point per hour, etc.

This is a lot more book keeping, but some players may dig it.

----------------

I tend to use an MgT/CT hybrid wound recovery mechanism which makes the minor damage of fist fights less relevant:

Player Characters always choose which Stat is damaged; NPCs go by the "Endurance First" rule.
(In my games, the players are mildly more "heroic" than the standard Mooks. I let my "bosses" choose their stat too. Think "Wildcards" from Savage Worlds.)

If no stats were reduced to 0, then discard damage points after combat if any First Aid is applied.
(This keeps lightly scuffed up players from having to worry about their wounds. Wounds that don't zero a stat are "merely scratches".)

Minor Wounds recover 1/2 damage to all damaged stats when regaining consciousness, then use standard recovery rules.
(Keeps minor wounds from being a problem, but still gives the players some consequence. This is a direct grab from CT.)

Serious Wounds use the normal MgT rules.

In the case of actual wounds, the first aid check Effect adds points as usual. This could mean that a minor wound is almost completely repaired by good first aid. That's ok with me, since it keeps the game running along.

 

[hdan]

For boxing, the boxers do take short breaks.

Allow them to recover 1/2 any wounds received during breaks. So of Normal Norman is down to 251XXX, he would go back up to 464 and go back in to the ring. He's only in trouble if he doesn't pull out before getting knocked out.

If you are actually doing a boxing match, you probably want to factor Athletics in somehow. Maybe as a +DM to his "First Aid" roll, which he would take any time he takes a break or is reduced to a zero stat for the KO or something.

Just some random thoughts.

 

[rust]

Just some random thoughts.

Interesting thoughts, thank you.

 

[DFW]

For boxing, the boxers do take short breaks.

Allow them to recover 1/2 any wounds received during breaks. So of Normal Norman is down to 251XXX, he would go back up to 464 and go back in to the ring. He's only in trouble if he doesn't pull out before getting knocked out.

Correct. However, the round is 3 minutes long. An actual fist fight between 2 people would almost never go this long (except for in the movies). Go down to a rough area of town and hand around long enough to see a score or so. Most people don't have the stamina to fight (physical non-weapon melee) for 3 minutes straight before one gives up. It is VERY tiring. Thus, pro boxers work on stamina as much as technique.

 

[The Dark Avenger]

One of our 'rules' for street applications is 'if you're still fighting after 10 seconds, you're probably losing'.

Another flaw with game systems tends to be the damage of supposedly-end weapons. A knife is no less lethal than a sword, it's just that a sword is often more useful for delivering harm in a combat situation.

1d6 damage vs 3d6 makes knives MUCH less lethal, where in reality they aren't. But it's hard to model and differentiate between weapons, espeically in a system that uses numbers of d6 to represent effectiveness.

 

[CosmicGamer]

...A knife is no less lethal than a sword, it's just that a sword...

Yes, a blow with any weapon if delivered properly can be deadly. Not every blow is going to be the perfect kill strike. When comparing two edged weapons, doesn't depth of cut and length of cut have some factor in the amount of damage delivered? Doesn't a heavier blade help penetration?

 

[Bense]

Take a look at Norman Normal with his average UPP of 777xxx. If an
average unarmed combat hit causes an unmodified damage of 1D6, or
an average of 3.5 per hit, six such hits will kill him. In my view those six
hits are too lethal for a normal fight, but not lethal enough for the use of
martial arts with the intention to kill.

But those six hits take 36 seconds to deliver. Perhaps we shouldn't view each hit as one hit, but a flurry of hits made during each combat round, with the result nicely summarized in one attack and one damage roll.

 

[Gee4orce]

The problem with games trying to simulate reality is: what reality are you trying to simulate ? Most real world fistfights are between unskilled (and probably inebriated) individuals. Traveller has the unskilled penalty rule, so the chance of hitting is probably about right - you could also say that unskilled characters have a penalty to damage too.

A trained martial artist in the real world most certainly can deal some very nasty damage in a short amount of time (eg. Wing Chun teaches the primary attack target for punches is the throat). The rules as-is feel about right for this level of skill.

People who've practiced more sports oriented martials arts might actually be at a disadvantage, as they are conditioned not to pull off 'illegal' attacks (ie. kicks to the knee or groin, finger jabs to the throat or eyes, etc) or conditioned to attack hard or low value targets (boxers hit the side of the head, which is fine if you're wearing gloves, but not if you're hand is unprotected). Modelling this is probably beyond the scope of this game engine.



I really like the damage rules that appeared in Blue Planet. Basically any attack has a damage potential from 1 to 10 (modified by attack quality, armour, toughness, etc). You roll 3 d10, and for each die that's less than the modified damage potential, that's an injury. The more dice that are under, the more severe the injury. This means that you CAN hurt someone with fists or a knife, and the hurt can be just as bad, but it's just easier to hurt them worse with a sword or a gun !

It's a very neat system, and one that I've mulled about porting to Traveller.

 

[DFW]

Traveller has the unskilled penalty rule, so the chance of hitting is probably about right - you could also say that unskilled characters have a penalty to damage too.

A trained martial artist in the real world most certainly can deal some very nasty damage in a short amount of time .

Which is why I set it at 1D2 damage + str + 1 for every level of Unarmed.

Lack of skill takes care of itself & high skill shows in ability to do real damage. A very high skilled (level 3) with above avg Str (+1) ends up doing 1D2 +4 Dmg.

 

[hdan]

But those six hits take 36 seconds to deliver. Perhaps we shouldn't view each hit as one hit, but a flurry of hits made during each combat round, with the result nicely summarized in one attack and one damage roll.

I think that's not a bad idea, though it has some sticky logical issues.

I hate to keep bringing up CT, but MgT is very closely derived from it so some of the "back story" is still relevant:

CT damage was always delivered, unmodified, in Dice rolled. Each dice was considered a "single wound or group of hits" and each dice was applied individually to a stat. (The "first blood" was simlar to MgT's - add 'em up and apply them all to one stat randomly. If it goes zero, then spread the remainder around.)

But MgT modifies the total with Effect, Armor and sometimes just an added DM, so the dice don't mean anything by themselves anymore. That muddies the conceptual model a bit IMHO, and means that damage in MgT, while clearly descended from CT, is a different animal. You no longer have a "set of wounds" to distribute, you have a single damage score.

(I remember the tension of trying to allocate your incoming damage in CT - do you wear down all of your stats to keep from going unconscious, or do you leave a stat "loaded' to soak those inevitable 5's and 6's? If you managed to get through without ever dropping to zero, you could shrug off everything....)

 

[rust]

When comparing two edged weapons, doesn't depth of cut and length of cut have some factor in the amount of damage delivered? Doesn't a heavier blade help penetration?

From a purely medical point of view, the most nasty wounds are those
caused by a long and slim blade, like a stiletto. They damage tissue and
cause bleeding deep inside the body, and it is almost impossible to treat
this without major surgery. Small wonder that the stiletto was a typical
assassin weapon.

 

[Matian]

Take a look at Norman Normal with his average UPP of 777xxx. If an
average unarmed combat hit causes an unmodified damage of 1D6, or
an average of 3.5 per hit, six such hits will kill him. In my view those six
hits are too lethal for a normal fight, but not lethal enough for the use of
martial arts with the intention to kill.

But those six hits take 36 seconds to deliver. Perhaps we shouldn't view each hit as one hit, but a flurry of hits made during each combat round, with the result nicely summarized in one attack and one damage roll.

This is how I always assumed it worked. A human can throw approximately one punch per second, so the resulting d6 roll is how many managed to hit/not be deflected, dealing one damage each. Most fistfights are over by the time someone gets knocked down half one of their stats, and if you decide to apply the -3 untrained penalty to damage that will still last a few rounds.

It's always made sense to me.

 

[Faelan Niall]

Yes, and one punch can kill. However, both are very rare. (Was a volunteer fireman for a few years). What is YOUR expertise son?

Anyway, while it is possible to kill someone with one strike of a #2 pencil, I don't give them 3D6 on the weapon damage tables. ROFLMAO

1. Not as rare as you might think.

2. The two punch combo is a standard boxing technique, by causing the opponents head to twist in different directions in rapid succession essentially shorts their brain out causing unconsciousness (rather it has more to due with their spinal cord, and the medula oblangata).

3. Hrmmm where to begin considering this is the internet. I have been studying mixed martial arts for about 30 years. 6 of those years were spent as an instructor in the USMC. Have participated in both classroom settings (though I have issues with martial arts as taught in most places since much of it is useless), and unfortunately in the hard knocks setting, though I have been fortunate there as well giving more than I ever got.

4. Trying to match reality to some sort of damage system is always futile, however that #2 pencil is all about where it is applied, not about it being a #2 pencil.

5. Lastly I am not your son, nor do I find your attempt at either simply being an offensive jag (which seems to be likely based on what I have seen of your posting habits) amusing. If it was meant to be amusing you failed severely.

 

[The Dark Avenger]

That's an interesting point about martial arts... a couple of people have mentioned how trained martial artists can do serious harm. Truth is, much depends on what is trained and how. The vast majority of modern 'martial arts' is not geared towards destroying an opponent in serious combat.

Even MMA (mixed martial arts) is geared towards (albeit closer to a real fight than the vast majority of martial arts) sporting contests rather than 'fighting'.

Few people train for serious personal combat. Those that do generally train for a fight that will be decided in seconds. The beating might go on for a bit longer, but most of the time someone will have reached the point where they can't even put up a decent defence well before 10 seconds haver passed.

 

[rust]

That's an interesting point about martial arts... a couple of people have mentioned how trained martial artists can do serious harm. Truth is, much depends on what is trained and how. The vast majority of modern 'martial arts' is not geared towards destroying an opponent in serious combat.

True, martial arts like Aikido or Judo do certainly not teach how to kill an
opponent quickly, and from my brother's experience (he was once a clo-
se combat trainer in our army) a training in certain martial arts can even
make it more difficult to learn lethal techniques later on. However, I do
not know a way to distinguish between the comparatively harmless sports
and the truly dangerous combat techniques in language, it seems both
are just called martial arts.

 

[BP]

... martial arts like Aikido or Judo do certainly not teach how to kill an opponent quickly...

Indeed - Aikido, as originated by its founder, has the expressed purpose of avoiding killing ones opponents (or even seriously injuring trained ones) .

To me, this is a highly useful style of melee combat skill that should be accommodated by an RPG in the vein of Traveller (vs. the hack and slash games).

Locks, pins and throws have interesting uses for roleplay and combat game mechanics - consider throws can increase distance (against trained opponents, more likely causing minor injuries or stunning against untrained), while locks and nerve pinches can be used to disarm opponents and pins used to neutralize, etc.

 

[locarno24]

Indeed - Aikido, as originated by its founder, has the expressed purpose of avoiding killing ones opponents (or even seriously injuring trained ones) .

To me, this is a highly useful style of melee combat skill that should be accommodated by an RPG in the vein of Traveller (vs. the hack and slash games).

Locks, pins and throws have interesting uses for roleplay and combat game mechanics - consider throws can increase distance (against trained opponents, more likely causing minor injuries or stunning against untrained), while locks and nerve pinches can be used to disarm opponents and pins used to neutralize, etc.

That, to me, is more covered by the option to grapple - allowing you to knock an opponent prone, disarm them or drag or throw them. As noted, it's one of the most useful options. And, since traveller's (fairly simple) damage mechanic always goes to unconciousness first, and doesn't become seriously injured unless you continue kicking them after they pass out, it's quite easy to disable someone judo-fashion.

 

[BP]

Quite true - the grapple options are one of the best parts of the MgT combat system, IMO.

With the addition of targeted actions and wound type effects (like weapon arm nerve pressure) I find them quite sufficient mechanics for such combat.