First impressions – 2300AD – Tools for Frontier Living

[IanBruntlett]

I waited patiently for months to buy this book. Its vital statistics are 174 pages, glue binding, sort of laminated paper cover, author Colin Dunn, price £21.99.

Impressions.
Seems to cover most things relevant to a colonisation game – as a big fan of Kim Stanley Robinson's Martian series, this is why I bought this book.

Some of the book acts as a 2300AD version of the Central Supply Catalogue. It has a lot of interesting kit including functional artwork.

Some of the chapters have (very) short stories to set the scene for themselves. I enjoyed them.

Conclusion.
If you're running a 2300AD campaign or looking to run a low tech/colonisation campaign this book is invaluable – so much so it would have benefited from being given a hardback cover.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Without wanting to seem too self-serving, I agree - and I would recommend this book for any Traveller campaign, not just 2300AD...

 

[Colin]

I'm glad you enjoyed it Ian. I very much enjoyed writing it. Future 2300AD products will make use of the colony design systems, spacesuits will use the suit design system, and they will continue to feature the same map style.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I liked it as well.

I was working on an OGL product with many of these concepts, but you did it better and more completely, so I have moved on to something else.

 

[Wil Mireu]

The artwork... what the hell happened with the artwork? It's great up to page 75... and then the horror starts.

Miscellaneous Equipment: I don't think I've never seen such amateurish BS passed off as art in an RPG book. It's simply laughable. I don't know what's supposed to be in the Emergency Suit on page 81. Some kind of midget? Or maybe it's the Stay-Puft marshmallow man? Or the Michelin Man?

And OMG, what is the creature on page 84? Some kind of horrible mutation with gigantic legs and and a tiny body and head? It's similarly lousy up until page 109. They may be illustrative, but they look like they've been drawn by 12 year olds.

The weapon illos from page 109 are functional - they work and they show what the thing looks like without me wanting to laugh at them. Those are fine.

Then we're back to the terrible art that was clogging up the Misc Equipment section for the Robots and Drones section.

The Walkers section has no art at all. Really? You couldn't find anyone to draw big robots and walkers decently?

Vehicles goes back to the side-view illustrations that were in Weapons. No complaints here - in fact that's what I was expecting the other sections to have.

Spacecraft Deckplans look decent. Pity there's no actual art of the spaceships in action though.

So... a word of advice to Mongoose. Never use whoever did the art for the Miscellaneous Equipment and Robots/Drones sections again. You should feel bad for using them in the first place. Don't sacrifice quality for cheapness, it doesn't do you any favours.

If you're doing equipment books, the clean, illustrative style of the Weapons section and Vehicles section is preferable.

Also, consistent artwork is better IMO. Switching between art styles is kinda jarring.

 

[Lemnoc]

The artwork... what the hell happened with the artwork? It's great up to page 75... and then the horror starts.
...
So... a word of advice to Mongoose. Never use whoever did the art for the Miscellaneous Equipment and Robots/Drones sections again. You should feel bad for using them in the first place. Don't sacrifice quality for cheapness, it doesn't do you any favours.
...

Yes; the jarringly poor illustrations were covered in earlier threads. I think someone suggested that some people are just not suited to be illustrators, should strive to recognize that in themselves and find some other occupation. Not everyone is born to be a poet.

Heck, just inking in equipment over a standardized pencil body outline might have produced less revolting results. The decision to go Manga on some of the art is just WRONG for 2300AD; more GI Joe in Space.

The weapons and vehicles had that serviceable look like you'd see come off CAD plotters in the '90s. Informative, not particularly inspiring, but not cringe-inducing.

 

[Wil Mireu]

Yes; the jarringly poor illustrations were covered in earlier threads. I think someone suggested that some people are just not suited to be illustrators, should strive to recognize that in themselves and find some other occupation. Not everyone is born to be a poet.

Then I'd say it's up to Mongoose not to hire these people to do the artwork for their products. This is hardly rocket science, they should hire people with actual talent instead.

Heck, just inking in equipment over a standardized pencil body outline might have produced less revolting results. The decision to go Manga on some of the art is just WRONG for 2300AD; more GI Joe in Space.

It wasn't even that it was "Manga", it was just crap. The artist clearly had no idea how to draw people at all, and even the item pictures were just BAD. Perspective was wrong, shading was wrong, and they were just plain ugly.

I can't believe that Matt actually paid money for work of such poor quality, let alone considered it good enough to accept for publication (he is listed as Editor, so ultimately it's his responsibility). If I was him, I'd be utterly embarrassed by that. Who was the artist, just so I know not to buy any other books with his/her work in it?

The weapons and vehicles had that serviceable look like you'd see come off CAD plotters in the '90s. Informative, not particularly inspiring, but not cringe-inducing.

But that's the minimum that I'd expect from this kind of book. And yet the odd thing is that the Vehicles Supplement (5-6) had very little illustrative art at all in it. The bulk of it is just pages and pages of stat blocks. Couldn't they have done that "CAD" style art for the vehicles in there?

 

[GJD]

Agree on the art. I did the stats for some of the vehicles, and the images in my minds eye were VERY different to those that ended up in the book.

 

[Wil Mireu]

Illustrative art that doesn't actually illustrate what's described is Not Good

 

[GJD]

My version of the Tribal Class Frigate.

 

[Lemnoc]

I do want to hasten to say that this is an otherwise excellent and highly useful sourcebook for TL8.5-10 campaigns. Gadgets galore. Mongoose should consider reissuing it with a little better art in the places described.

 

[Wil Mireu]

I do want to hasten to say that this is an otherwise excellent and highly useful sourcebook for TL8.5-10 campaigns. Gadgets galore. Mongoose should consider reissuing it with a little better art in the places described.

Yes, it's a great book, but let down by the crappy artwork - but that's "business as usual" for Mongoose isn't it. You'd think they'd know by now to just release it with better art to start with.

I know I commented about the lack of illustrative line art in Vehicle Supplement 5-6, but I'd rather have no art at all than something like what was in the Misc Equipment and Robots section here. At least then you wouldn't have people actively repelled from the book by it.

 

[Colin]

I'm glad you like the written material, and my maps. I provided the art direction for the rest of the book, though I did not see the finished work until after it was published. Sometimes in can be difficult translating the written art direction into images, though.

 

[mechascorpio]

Wow, that artwork. I just read this review over on RPGnet which gives a glimpse of some of the art in TfFL.

I have removed the book from my cart. Sale lost, and I'm bummed about it.

Seriously, that is awful. I used to publish a Doctor Who zine in the early 80s that had better artwork than that, and it was crap. I'd rather have big blank white spots in the book than have something like this on my shelf. I can deal with a wall of text (hello, Crowded Hours). But this? It's kind of insulting. It says, "We don't take our customers or this product line very seriously."

 

[IanBruntlett]

Seriously, that is awful. I used to publish a Doctor Who zine in the early 80s that had better artwork than that, and it was crap. I'd rather have big blank white spots in the book than have something like this on my shelf. I can deal with a wall of text (hello, Crowded Hours). But this? It's kind of insulting. It says, "We don't take our customers or this product line very seriously."

Well... all my players are casual gamers, who rarely (if ever) watch sci-fi films or read similar books. Being able to point to a picture in a book to say "this is what you've got" is very helpful.

 

[Wil Mireu]

Thing is, Mongoose probably aren't losing that many sales from this. Why? Because people want the information contained in the book, and there's nowhere else to get it. So if they want that info then they will have to put up with the atrocious art, which is tacked onto the parts of the book that they do want to pay for.

Mongoose are simply deceiving themselves if they think they can keep using that as a justification to keep producing shitty "artwork" in books though (sorry, but that's the only word that really does this garbage justice). It shows a lack of pride in their product, it shows that they have really low standards and are happy to have them, and it shows a fundamental lack of respect for their customers. Dream Pod 9 did the same thing with editing (or rather, their complete lack of it, which made their books pretty much unreadable in some cases) and that DID bite them in the arse and pretty much caused the death of their RPG lines.

Publishers do not want customers having to grit their teeth while buying their products because they'll know they have to wade through bad art or editing - it damages their reputation and it will ultimately damage their sales. And they don't want the otherwise decent or possibly excellent written material in their books being dragged down people focussing on the bad artwork instead... but that's what happens.

It looks like Matt just took whatever was made by the lowest bidder and threw it in there without any care for quality (or even if it matched the rest of the book). Though I actually feel bad for the artist - I get the impression that they're not really an artist by trade or training anyway and just got told to draw stuff for the book. I mean, look at this rubbish - it's a bloody insult, and Matt should be ashamed of it. Stretchy Girl and a dwarf in a Michelin Man outfit? Really, Matt?

But I'm sure Matt will continue to claim that sales aren't harmed so why should he care? He'll probably claim that it's more expensive to get decent artwork, and he's keeping costs down. If he want to keep costs down then given a choice between rubbish like this or no art then I would much rather see no art at all.

 

[MongooseMatt]

But I'm sure Matt will continue to claim that sales aren't harmed so why should he care? He'll probably claim that it's more expensive to get decent artwork, and he's keeping costs down.

Well, you would be incorrect on both counts.

I disagree with the review on RPGnet on a number of levels, and feel the reviewer did not quite 'get' the content, which I think is a good example of what Traveller is capable of - but that is his prerogative as a reviewer.

What I do think is a little disingenuous is to pick out the two worst pieces of art in the book and then suggest they are representative, without making any mention of, say, the maps in the colonies chapters, or the front cover. Or the other equipment chapters, for that matter, such as the weapons - they are not hyper-3D designs, but are perfectly competent.

And BTW, stretchy woman is not stretchy - we were trying to suggest DNA modifications as per the core rulebook.

However, as always, we have taken your comments on board and are looking to review the way we approach this line.

 

[mechascorpio]

Well... all my players are casual gamers, who rarely (if ever) watch sci-fi films or read similar books. Being able to point to a picture in a book to say "this is what you've got" is very helpful.

Absolutely, there is a place and a reason for art within these game books. But I'm not going to hold up a picture of the Michelin Man and say "this is what you've got". Or, let me put it another way. If I have to quickly sketch something out and it looks like that, so be it. I'm just not going to pay for the privilege.

And, Matt, I take all reviews with a grain of salt, and based on what's been said here and even in the review, I can still "get" the content. And he did say "the illustrations from from page 76-145 actively detracts from the book" and praised the deckplans and facility images. If someone wants to clarify that the reviewer pulled out the only two groaners in the book, please set me straight.

My point is this: I don't want artwork like that in the books (and I'd have to think Mongoose and the authors don't really want it either). So I'm not going to buy a book that has it unless it is the exception. And I come here to say it only so that it doesn't end up in future books that I still want to purchase. And I suggest that if it comes down to it, and you have this space reserved for art, and this is the only kind of art you have, please try to figure out an alternative. Recycle something old. Create a useful table or reference. Reduce the page count in layout, and realize that if the art is so bad that you have to lose more than two pages, there's probably a problem!

Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think most of us can agree that artwork like this is simply not ready for primetime.

 

[Strithe]

I disagree with the review on RPGnet on a number of levels, and feel the reviewer did not quite 'get' the content, which I think is a good example of what Traveller is capable of - but that is his prerogative as a reviewer.

The only good point he makes is on chapter headings for Colony & Outpost "Design." Probably "Generation" would have been a better choice. Although, to be fair I playtested those rules and didn't pick up on that either....

As for not "getting" the content I agree. True, the random tables can generate some weirdness, but then again it's supposed to be the Traveller ruleset and random generation sort of that system's "thing."

Plus anyone with a decent understanding of math can extrapolate a less random system easily from the rules as written with ease.

Some of the other comments in the review... seem to have some basic issues with the setting itself, which begs the question "why did you buy a supplement for it?"

What I do think is a little disingenuous is to pick out the two worst pieces of art in the book and then suggest they are representative, without making any mention of, say, the maps in the colonies chapters, or the front cover. Or the other equipment chapters, for that matter, such as the weapons - they are not hyper-3D designs, but are perfectly competent.

And BTW, stretchy woman is not stretchy - we were trying to suggest DNA modifications as per the core rulebook.

I'd argue those aren't the worst pieces of art in the book. The spacesuit pic is decent if a tad "cartoony" and fits the description of the Emergency Suit. The really terrible art was the satellites. I'm sorry, but those are just godawful: I could have literally done better, and I've got next to no artistic talent.

Stretchy / not-stretchy woman.... sure, I'll buy that her odd proportions are due to DNAM's, but the real problem (at least for me) is that the stylistic changes are a bit jarring. You start out with Colin's satellite-image-style maps, along with some really good pen & ink and pencil or charcoal drawings in a fairly realistic style, and then we go off to cartoonland, and then back back to the realistic style with the blueprint / cad style weapons illustration, back to the cartoons, and then back to the blueprints for the vehicles.

Personally, I like the more "realistic" style, but I also realize you're trying to produce a product with a certain production budget. In some instances, the cartoon-style works: I actually liked the uncomfortable expression on the face of the guy wearing the immersion diving suit. Maybe next time spread things out a bit more and the transitions won't look so drastic.

One other bit of constructive criticism: go for heavier line weights with the blueprint style drawings: some of the weapons are almost invisible on the .pdf version of Tools.

 

[crazy_cat]

Just to pitch in - I had been on the fence re TfFL having seen various reviews and comments on the 'quality' of the art, but was interested anyway as I love the 2300 lowish to mid tech thing.

Those examples however are absolute shit and make the book a definite no for me.

Mongoose should be seriously embarrasssed for even thinking of publishing a book containing that and actually asking for money for it - and if you aren't then I think it speaks volumes about your QA for Traveller books and the respect you have for your customers.