Fighters - Hyperspace query

[KennyBoy]

After the tourney on Saturday (which was excellent) Greg, Da Boss, Diesel and I were heading home and I put this question forward:-

"As fighters are considered ships for a lot of rulings, does that mean that I can count my 5 independently bought Flyers in the ship total when working out half my fleet starting in Hyperspace?"

We umm'd and ahh'd over it for a bit, then Greg suggested sticking it on the forum for you'se guys to discuss... 8)

 

[Locutus9956]

Hmmm... thats an interesting one. The 'half your ships in hyperspace' rule is already one that gets debated from time to time (I must admit I felt a little cheesy deploying 3 skirmish and 2 raid ships in hyperspace while putting 7 patrol choices on the table (though against a fleet with 31 torpedo fighters I didnt feel THAT guilty about taking off the gloves ).

However doing it with patrol ships is one thing doing it with fighters might be considered to be pushing it a bit .

A possible idea (for future revisions of the rules) might be to allow only half the fleet in PL to be kept in hyperspace, or UP TO half your points, but the problem here is it can seriously hamstring fleets that use one or two big ships that want to jump them in.

Personally I dont have any problem with the rules as they are but would say that fighters would have to be counted in full wings if they were to count as a ship for these purposes (though I think it would best if it was ruled that only proper ships counted anyway).

Frankly the thing to remember in such a situation is that BOTH sides can gnerally keep half their ships off (this can also be used defensively to keep your opponent from jumping in behind YOUR ships, though of course that has the disadvantage of keeping your ships out of the game for a turn).

Hyperspace is one of those things that really adds alot to the tatical options in the game and also really helps with the B5 feel of the game (personally I would like to see it available in ALOT more scenarios as its one of the bits of ACTA that really does rely on tactics more than dice luck )

 

[Locutus9956]

Well reading that I seem to have digressed somewhat so to sum up:

No I don't think fighters should count towards the 'half your fleet' ruling. You can keep as many or as few of them in hyperspace as you like but deploying independant wings should NOT let you hold ships off the table.

Just my oppinion of course.

 

[Burger]

It is a cheesy tactic but rules as written says fighters are ships unless stated othewise. So ship total includes fighters.

 

[skavendan]

It is a cheesy tactic but rules as written says fighters are ships unless stated othewise. So ship total includes fighters.

That's one way of stopping an armada of hyperspace attacks coming in!

 

[Greg Smith]

As a corollary to this question, does it include undeployed fighters?

ie I have a Morshin on the table, with 4 fighters launched and 4 in the hanger, does that mean I can keep 9 Sharlins in hyperspace?

 

[Locutus9956]

It is a cheesy tactic but rules as written says fighters are ships unless stated othewise. So ship total includes fighters.

That's one way of stopping an armada of hyperspace attacks coming in!

erm no its not it makes it easier to allow an armada of hyperspace attacks.

Consider the following Fleet:

5 point Raid:
2 Hyperion Rail Cruisers
2 Hyperion Rail Cruisers
2 Hyperion Rail Cruisers,
2 Hyperion Rail Cruisers
1 Oracle + 2 Tethys + 2 Wings of Nova Starfuries (10 flights in total).

I deploy the Nova furies and the Oracle on the table. That makes 11 shis if figher flights count as ships. I put the 8 Hyperions and the Tethys in hyperspace, open 8 jump points and on turn 2 bring them all in for a billion dice of Railgun fire behind the enemy fleet.

That strikes me as a teensy weensy bit abusive.... It may not be cheating as such but it would strike me as the sort of tactic on par with spamming bluestar jump point bombs.

In fact, speaking of bluestars.... consider the implications for the ISA using wings of starfuries in this manner to allow them to keep more bluestars in hyperspace.....

5 point raid again:

1 Whitestar 2 (scout)
3 Wngs of Thunderbolts (or Auroras) (12 fighters) + 1 Bluestar
4 Bluestars
4 Blusetars
4 Bluestars

so deploy the WS and the furies and youve got 13 ships on the table and keep all 13 Bluestars in hyperspace. Jump point bomb away like a madman. Tell me you woundnt be tempted to beat your opponent to death with the rulebook, I dare you

Basically, by the letter of the rules fighter flights DO count as ships but would suggest this particular point is a case of a BIG oversight in the rules that opens the door to serious abuse if we allow it!

 

[Locutus9956]

As a corollary to this question, does it include undeployed fighters?

ie I have a Morshin on the table, with 4 fighters launched and 4 in the hanger, does that mean I can keep 9 Sharlins in hyperspace?

I believe were talking about independant wings here only, I would assume that carried fighters are entirely out of the deployment issue for purposes of 'half of your fleet'.

Again though I still say fighters shoulnt count at all here....

 

[Shadow Queen]

My $0.2 as long as there is a ship that has Jump Engines like in the standing together tourni.

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

As a corollary to this question, does it include undeployed fighters?

ie I have a Morshin on the table, with 4 fighters launched and 4 in the hanger, does that mean I can keep 9 Sharlins in hyperspace?

And then, what about ships carried in huge hangers?

 

[Shadow Queen]

They have to be welded in place and not launched at all.

 

[Burger]

As a corollary to this question, does it include undeployed fighters?

ie I have a Morshin on the table, with 4 fighters launched and 4 in the hanger, does that mean I can keep 9 Sharlins in hyperspace?

I guess it could either be 1, 5 or 9 depending on how you interpret it. 1 if you count ships to be ships as selected on your fleet roster. 5 if you count deployed ships (it is deployment phase after all). 9 if you count all ships.

I'm with Locutus though, counting fighters as ships for this total is silly.

 

[skavendan]

Fleet roster is the only balanced way to take it in my eyes, but that really should be re-worded as some people will no doubt argue that especially now this topic has been posted!

 

[Burger]

Fleet roster is the only balanced way to take it in my eyes, but that really should be re-worded as some people will no doubt argue that especially now this topic has been posted!

Yes, but we're not talking about what is balanced, we're talking about what is written. ie, what the rules are, not what they should be.

 

[skavendan]

I'm with Locutus though, counting fighters as ships for this total is silly.

Do you use house rules burger?

 

[Burger]

I'm with Locutus though, counting fighters as ships for this total is silly.

Do you use house rules burger?

No, that is why I'm discussing the rules as written. If we used house rules, we'd just house rule it to not include fighters.

 

[skavendan]

unlucky for you then as it is written so it shall be!

let min-maxing commence!

Here comes the warp bombs!

 

[KennyBoy]

The reason that the question came about was because, in our current campaign, we had a 2pt Skirmish "Space Superiority" battle rolled up between my Minbari - I took a Teshlan, as my Torotha's had already been used in another battle - and a League fleet - he had a Drazi Eyehawk, Jumphawk and a wing of Falkosi (6 flights).
Even before we set up, my opponent informed me that the Falkosi would be deployed as normal, but the two hawks would remain in hyperspace until the penultimate turn, when they would Initiate Jump Point and come in on the last turn to grab whatever sections of space hadn't been seized by the Falkosi flights... which, as the scenario states, can count when grabbing sections of the table.
He was suitably contrite at virtually giving me no chance to compete in, let alone win, the battle, but the tactic got me thinking... hence the question! 8)

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I brought this question up the moment that someone on here suggested to me that half the ships should be counted up as number of ships rather than number of FAP of ships. At the end of the day, it's hardly any more abusive than saying that Patrol level ships count. Our group still counts number of FAP of ships to work out half staying in hyperspace - counting individual ships just leads to too many potential abuses regardless of whether you count fighters.

 

[Burger]

Try to shoot down the Falkosi, if you kill them then he can't bring his hawks on, and you win.
Chase them into a corner with your Teshlan