Fifth Frontier War: How's your war going?

[MongooseMatt]

Abandoning the "your players can make a difference!" approach and adopting the Dragonlance method

But that is... not what we are doing.

There is no set ending that we are headed towards. At all. What happens in the adventures released will have an effect. We have never deviated from this.

In general, in the early part of the war, Travellers are placed in more minor areas and their actions can have more minor effects - but those can snowball later on. It is about planting seeds. Tilting the balance towards one side or the other on a backwater world may just seem to be a mark on a map, but when one fleet later has to dedicate fleet resources that it had planned to send elsewhere to take advantage of or shore up that world... that has an effect on the big picture.

That said, there have already been some fairly major points that Travellers can alter. Opening Moves springs to mind and, if this is the sort of thing you want to feature in your games, then by the Iridium Throne, keep an eye out for Favourites at Court...

As an aside, someone mentioned wanting to keep track of fleet positions and resources on the strategic side. This was never going to happen. That is not an RPG. Now, it could happen at some later point, either as a boardgame or video game maybe, but the whole point of this series is to strap your players into the front seats of the war where they will see what is happening and, yes, begin to alter things.

 

[Sigtrygg]

As I said on another thread I have been getting into Kreigsspeil of late.

It strikes me that the FFW wargame could be run along those lines. each side has their map and knowledge of their units.

The main map is under the control of the referee who keeps track of movement, plotted movement and interactions.

These are revealed on the main map as the game progresses and the conflict in contested hexes resolved.

 

[MongooseMatt]

As I said on another thread I have been getting into Kreigsspeil of late.

It strikes me that the FFW wargame could be run along those lines. each side has their map and knowledge of their units.

It absolutely could. And it would be awesome. And it could even be integrated, to a degree, into an RPG.

You could have the overall arching strategy, and then run the adventures we are releasing with separate Traveller bands, each having some effect (large or small) in the strategic positions.

And I really don't think many people would commit to that Right now they get to dip in and dip out of the FFW as thy see fit, doing the adventures they want to do and having an effect, even if they do not always see it at the time (something we touch on in The Infinity Suite, incidentally, but then how aware are interstellar rock stars going to be anyway?).

That is a lot more approachable. What you are proposing is staggering in its awesomeness, but maybe not... commercial, as they say.

 

[Jame Rowe]

My 5FW ended by Grandfather taking Zhdant, Daryen, Regina, Capital, Terra and (somehow) Tattooine and turning them into a gigantic Newton's Cradle.

 

[Endie]

But that is... not what we are doing.

There is no set ending that we are headed towards. At all. What happens in the adventures released will have an effect. We have never deviated from this.

You might want to work on the messaging there a bit, however: you have products that came out many months into the line that have asserted "this system will be attacked and the Zhodani badly defeated resulting in a major retreat on this specific day in 1107. Soz if you didn't do that." There is a whole lot of that in both narrative and maps. And the title of a product due out in almost a year is a reference to the turning tide, which suggests that the war should be going one way by then (and will then at least be presumed to go the other way.) If not, then that is a marketing failure, not a product one.

With those key dates dribbled out over time it's a fun graphical novel and I've enjoyed both reading the three products I bought. But it does seem very like the Dragonlance adventures in that you could lock yourself out of adventures if you let the war progress in the months between releases. Except that the DL series at least told you stuff like "tempting as it will be for the party to try, don't let them kill this hyper-annoying NPC. Because they totally will try."

Without basic stuff like "this is the basic status we presume for each year that the war will last, and here is the war aim of each side" then I honestly think that the line presumes people will only read it as lore or dabble in it as one-offs. The evidence is this thread: one person says "hey is anyone else playing the new FFW campaign?" Eight people reply with variations on "no, but I'm kinda reading bits of it/there's some stuff going on in the background of my campaign", two people say "no but I played the boardgame/used the CT one" and literally nobody so far has said "hell yeah here is where my party have reached!" Which is a contrast with similar threads for Deepnight, PoD, Singularity and even Cluster Truck to an extent.

If it's a passively-consumed set of lore books then the secrecy and reveals are fine. If it's meant to be a living campaign that large numbers of customers actually play at the table then there's some marketing work needed.

 

[pholus96]

I have a deep seated loathing of using published material that is incomplete and doesn't tell me enough to know what is happening, why, or where it might go. This is probably because I don't generally use things as is, so I want to know how changing things will affect the overall structure.

At some point, the 5FW material might tell us enough to be usable, but so far it's just cool lore books for the bookshelf.

The lessons learned by "Dragonlance" DM's everywhere back in the 80's.

 

[pholus96]

You might want to work on the messaging there a bit, however: you have products that came out many months into the line that have asserted "this system will be attacked and the Zhodani badly defeated resulting in a major retreat on this specific day in 1107. Soz if you didn't do that." There is a whole lot of that in both narrative and maps. And the title of a product due out in almost a year is a reference to the turning tide, which suggests that the war should be going one way by then (and will then at least be presumed to go the other way.) If not, then that is a marketing failure, not a product one.

With those key dates dribbled out over time it's a fun graphical novel and I've enjoyed both reading the three products I bought. But it does seem very like the Dragonlance adventures in that you could lock yourself out of adventures if you let the war progress in the months between releases. Except that the DL series at least told you stuff like "tempting as it will be for the party to try, don't let them kill this hyper-annoying NPC. Because they totally will try."

Without basic stuff like "this is the basic status we presume for each year that the war will last, and here is the war aim of each side" then I honestly think that the line presumes people will only read it as lore or dabble in it as one-offs. The evidence is this thread: one person says "hey is anyone else playing the new FFW campaign?" Eight people reply with variations on "no, but I'm kinda reading bits of it/there's some stuff going on in the background of my campaign", two people say "no but I played the boardgame/used the CT one" and literally nobody so far has said "hell yeah here is where my party have reached!" Which is a contrast with similar threads for Deepnight, PoD, Singularity and even Cluster Truck to an extent.

If it's a passively-consumed set of lore books then the secrecy and reveals are fine. If it's meant to be a living campaign that large numbers of customers actually play at the table then there's some marketing work needed.

Ooops, made MY Dragonlance comment too soon I see. I haven't started FFW because I have lots of other material AND I just don't start anything without knowing where it's ending (so I can change it while the changes are little if I don't like it). It's been an enjoyable read though!

 

[Terry Mixon]

But that is... not what we are doing.

There is no set ending that we are headed towards. At all. What happens in the adventures released will have an effect. We have never deviated from this.

In general, in the early part of the war, Travellers are placed in more minor areas and their actions can have more minor effects - but those can snowball later on. It is about planting seeds. Tilting the balance towards one side or the other on a backwater world may just seem to be a mark on a map, but when one fleet later has to dedicate fleet resources that it had planned to send elsewhere to take advantage of or shore up that world... that has an effect on the big picture.

That said, there have already been some fairly major points that Travellers can alter. Opening Moves springs to mind and, if this is the sort of thing you want to feature in your games, then by the Iridium Throne, keep an eye out for Favourites at Court...

As an aside, someone mentioned wanting to keep track of fleet positions and resources on the strategic side. This was never going to happen. That is not an RPG. Now, it could happen at some later point, either as a boardgame or video game maybe, but the whole point of this series is to strap your players into the front seats of the war where they will see what is happening and, yes, begin to alter things.

If this is to be the case, wouldn’t it have made sense to at least spell out what the Zhodoni strategic goals were? As it is, a fleet or thee pulled up, a noble stuck his head out, and said “get in, loser, we’re attacking the Imperium.” We don't know why they are doing so, but what they consider victory. Even a view of what they see as an acceptable draw would be nice.

 

[Anstett]

It absolutely could. And it would be awesome. And it could even be integrated, to a degree, into an RPG.

You could have the overall arching strategy, and then run the adventures we are releasing with separate Traveller bands, each having some effect (large or small) in the strategic positions.

And I really don't think many people would commit to that Right now they get to dip in and dip out of the FFW as thy see fit, doing the adventures they want to do and having an effect, even if they do not always see it at the time (something we touch on in The Infinity Suite, incidentally, but then how aware are interstellar rock stars going to be anyway?).

That is a lot more approachable. What you are proposing is staggering in its awesomeness, but maybe not... commercial, as they say.

I am working on just such a thing for the future when I have more time and more/all of the books are out. 2027?

A grand campaign of play by post starting with the Naval adventures, building a crew through to the FFW. Then posting fleet movements on locked pages that are only revealed after communications delays are over.

Player A - post send ships from X to Y (page locked to only player A)
Player B - just living their life, when a fleet appears in the sky (page locked to only player B)
Communication delay time complete - Unlock the page(s) so that everyone can see the status/history of what was happening.

Meanwhile events continuing on locked pages for each Player as different things happen, slowly revealing older dates as the various players have moved forward in time enough to have heard the news.

Complicated to organize and run, definitely not easily commercial/monetizable.

 

[Vormaerin]

But that is... not what we are doing.

There is no set ending that we are headed towards. At all. What happens in the adventures released will have an effect. We have never deviated from this.

That may be, but at this point in the releases there is nothing for the GM to actually work with. There may come a point when all this material serves a playable purpose, but we aren't there yet.

The 5FW overview book should have laid out the broad strokes of the whole campaign if it was expected that people use the material now rather than at some future point.

And I would have liked to see a campaign tie ins for the Naval Campaign Guide, the Mercenary rules, and for "this is how to make the war feel real and impactful in your regular campaign that doesn't revolve around the players deciding the war's outcome.".

Right now we have some interesting lore books and some decent stand alone adventures, but nothing to help turn all of this into actual story at the table. In another year or two, we may have such. I don't know. But we don't currently.

 

[Terry Mixon]

That may be, but at this point in the releases there is nothing for the GM to actually work with. There may come a point when all this material serves a playable purpose, but we aren't there yet.

The 5FW overview book should have laid out the broad strokes of the whole campaign if it was expected that people use the material now rather than at some future point.

And I would have liked to see a campaign tie ins for the Naval Campaign Guide, the Mercenary rules, and for "this is how to make the war feel real and impactful in your regular campaign that doesn't revolve around the players deciding the war's outcome.".

Right now we have some interesting lore books and some decent stand alone adventures, but nothing to help turn all of this into actual story at the table. In another year or two, we may have such. I don't know. But we don't currently.

Exactly this.

 

[Starqueen]

I am working on just such a thing for the future when I have more time and more/all of the books are out. 2027?

A grand campaign of play by post starting with the Naval adventures, building a crew through to the FFW. Then posting fleet movements on locked pages that are only revealed after communications delays are over.

Player A - post send ships from X to Y (page locked to only player A)
Player B - just living their life, when a fleet appears in the sky (page locked to only player B)
Communication delay time complete - Unlock the page(s) so that everyone can see the status/history of what was happening.

Meanwhile events continuing on locked pages for each Player as different things happen, slowly revealing older dates as the various players have moved forward in time enough to have heard the news.

Complicated to organize and run, definitely not easily commercial/monetizable.

Im basically making a note from the FFW main book of likely major battles that I can arrange 'player scale' mercenary adventures around. Some vague ideas I have so far:
A couple of brushfire conflicts which, if the players succeed in suppressing, will have different effects on the war. In one case I imagine it helping Imperial forces mount a successful defence when they enter the system in-force, in another, it actually makes things worse - creating ground conditions favourable to a Zhodani force that later occupies the pacified planet.

An anti-piracy mission that, if successful, will speed up logistics for a naval group by one week, just enough time to get them to the battle they are meant to win.

A mission to suppress (or aid...) striking miners. Suppressing the revolt will get them some suspiciously high-end gear. Aiding them will lead to the Miners trusting them enough to confide about a secret supply depot funded by the Zhodani. What the players do with that info could have an effect on the war.

A straight-up Assasination job, in a heavily militarised system. I imagine a major distraction of some kind being vital to success. Success slows down one side or another's response time in that region as the second-in-command is much less decisive than the assasinated commander.

 

[nats]

I am not that keen on the Fifth Frontier War and here is why:

We are presently being forced to live in a real world where conflict, worries about the future, and economic hardship seem to be becoming the norm for many people. To instigate a huge interstellar war in the Traveller world at this juncture is imo a bit unfortunate in terms of timing I would say. I have anyways enjoyed the stability of the Official Traveller Universe as role playing is a form of escape from real world problems. This FFW is hitting a bit too close to bone I feel.

Also I am not quite sure what the point of this FFW is from a role playing perspective (other than an opportunity for new book sales), and I am also a little concerned about how it will affect the games universe in the future. As one thing for certain is the OTU will never be the same as it used to be after the war is concluded.

So this whole FFW could even split the Traveller community into:
- the people who are going with the FFW and will adapt the situation into their games, and accept all affects on the OTU afterwards, and
- the people who are ignoring the FFW timeline and will pretend it never happened, and
- the people who dont use the OTU background much at all (this is me).

This whole concept seems very similar to the problems presented in MegaTraveller and some other versions of Traveller, when the enforcement of universal changes on players was not appreciated. I dont know, maybe this is all being a bit too serious. it just seems a potentially huge change, and one that nobody can be entirely sure of what impact it is going to have on Traveller as a game in the future.

It would have been better if it had been just all included as a fully resolved conflict in one setting book called the FFW, and therefore could have been used or ignored by all concerned. The way it is being carried out though it does feel like Mongoose are imposing this war on me whether I want it or not.

 

[pholus96]

I am not that keen on the Fifth Frontier War and here is why:

Oh I get that right now. IMTU the Imperium is imperfect, but stable precisely for the reason you mention. I also need my escapism to not be a reminder of our reality. But the very existence of the term IMTU means it's your universe and we're never going to have our universes line up in experience and you shouldn't feel obligated. Just don't buy that series and go with what works for you! Half the fun of talking Traveller is in comparing IMTU's!

The FFW is being published because, well, it happened in GDW days and they're giving it a modern spin because they've been good in updating the ENTIRE experience. I'm glad because I never had the time and money to get it all back in the day but now I have a second chance to try. When and if the FFW happens for me, the Marches will be torn to bits but in the end the Core is not going to change. That way, my players would have the very real choice to either adventure in a war or head for quieter surroundings.

I like "pick the tone of your campaign" choices like that. But that means I'll probably never have a Virus or a Rebellion IMTU because they remove any choice to avoid them.

Heck, one solution to consider for you is to just start Deepnight to avoid FFW and you can ignore the war for 20 years of game time!

Funny you said economic hardship though. I actually revel in how my characters have hardship that I can watch but not experience. Just this morning in my "before-my-sweetie-gets-out-of-bed" solo game I was forced to sell some commodities to make the ship payment at really unfavorable terms on a Law level A world and the taxes just added insult to injury. The last of my crew's credits (and a loan from the group Noble to the ship fund) has bought 30 tons of spices for a last-gasp attempt to stay legit on a run to Tobia and I also accepted a dodgy Patron's request to ship Starship weaponry components to his factory while staying discrete about it (thanks Starports). Wish me luck, because Tech F customs scanners are going to be hard to beat but probably less hard than the skip tracer if I miss the next payment in 2 jumps! At least the parts are not flat out illegal so no jail time but instead they're just a trade secret that I to have to try to keep for the bonus!

 

[Endie]

I am not that keen on the Fifth Frontier War and here is why:

We are presently being forced to live in a real world where conflict, worries about the future, and economic hardship seem to be becoming the norm for many people. To instigate a huge interstellar war in the Traveller world at this juncture is imo a bit unfortunate in terms of timing I would say. I have anyways enjoyed the stability of the Official Traveller Universe as role playing is a form of escape from real world problems. This FFW is hitting a bit too close to bone I feel.

Also I am not quite sure what the point of this FFW is from a role playing perspective (other than an opportunity for new book sales), and I am also a little concerned about how it will affect the games universe in the future. As one thing for certain is the OTU will never be the same as it used to be after the war is concluded.

So this whole FFW could even split the Traveller community into:
- the people who are going with the FFW and will adapt the situation into their games, and accept all affects on the OTU afterwards, and
- the people who are ignoring the FFW timeline and will pretend it never happened, and
- the people who dont use the OTU background much at all (this is me).

This whole concept seems very similar to the problems presented in MegaTraveller and some other versions of Traveller, when the enforcement of universal changes on players was not appreciated. I dont know, maybe this is all being a bit too serious. it just seems a potentially huge change, and one that nobody can be entirely sure of what impact it is going to have on Traveller as a game in the future.

It would have been better if it had been just all included as a fully resolved conflict in one setting book called the FFW, and therefore could have been used or ignored by all concerned. The way it is being carried out though it does feel like Mongoose are imposing this war on me whether I want it or not.

The idea that Traveller - a game born from a wargames company - should avoid addressing conflict or economic hardship, strikes me as an awful idea. But I was born too early for trigger warnings or worrying that mentioning war in an RPG might cause people with fragile mental health to touch the X card. My suggestion would be: don't buy the FFW products. Don't read them and the imaginary war can't hurt you.

If you take a look at the Mongoose publishing lines you'll spot that the way they are doing the FFW line is exactly the way that they have managed to address the exact, historical problem that you mention. Yes, games companies that split their playerbase by campaign setting fail (classic example: TSR). And yes, games companies that set out to break their campaign world also fail (see also TSR, as well as GDW and White Wolf amongst others).

But Mongoose have, several times, started various alternative timelines in 1105 and let people play through universe-changing events. The effects of those are constrained to the players' world.

You're upset about the FFW: ignore it. It won't stop you using any other line. Singularity, if followed to its conclusion, also breaks the classic setting. Fine: don't have it going on in your universe. The Ancients campaign will probably leave the surviving characters as effective demigods. Pirates of Drinax will most likely change the Trojan Reach profoundly and render the Traveller Map "incorrect". Net required effect on any other campaign world: zero. The same goes for Deepnight Revelation.

None of the outcomes are canonically mandated.

 

[Starqueen]

Hi, OP here, I'm glad people are engaging with this thread, but I didn't start it as a discussion board for people who like/dont like the FFW or the present books. (Though please remember, FFW has already happened in previous iterations of the game, its not exactly some new change, and its not like we didn't know it would happen in the chronology of the game. Its also not like you can't ignore it. As far as I'm aware, the 'default' time for most of Mongoose products is still cerca 1105.)

Please folks, I just want discussion about implementation in your games, or ideas you might have for a campaign set to the backdrop of a war (any war, really.) If you want to talk about the merits of the actual products, I know Matt makes regular official posts about upcoming or released books. Those are the places to discuss your gripes or endorsements!

All the best fellow Travellers!

 

[CordwainerFish]

I am also a little concerned about how it will affect the games universe in the future

Hasn't Matt said, many times, that it won't?

 

[Endie]

Hi, OP here, I'm glad people are engaging with this thread, but I didn't start it as a discussion board for people who like/dont like the FFW or the present books. (Though please remember, FFW has already happened in previous iterations of the game, its not exactly some new change, and its not like we didn't know it would happen in the chronology of the game. Its also not like you can't ignore it. As far as I'm aware, the 'default' time for most of Mongoose products is still cerca 1105.)

Please folks, I just want discussion about implementation in your games, or ideas you might have for a campaign set to the backdrop of a war (any war, really.) If you want to talk about the merits of the actual products, I know Matt makes regular official posts about upcoming or released books. Those are the places to discuss your gripes or endorsements!

All the best fellow Travellers!

Good luck stopping debate from wandering in any forum, ever, let alone this particular one.

We get to post a thread, but where it goes from there is in the hands of everyone else and in the laps of the gods. And the tutelary deities of this particular board seem to enjoy sidetracks. This isn't rpg.net, where you can get the mods to enforce only the type of discussion you want.