FFW doing it my way

[MasterGwydion]

It's a D class port... why is the expectation it should be TL12? Is there some additional info I'm missing?

This is where the system should have some sort of naval base or at least SDB-support ships similar to real-world submarine and destroyer tenders and other depot that get forward deployed for support. Or like how the USN deployed drydocks to a few places like Ulithi for field repairs and servicing of ships. 500 SDB's is a LOT of ships to support. I'd think that they would have probably been supported via a ground naval installation since there is no indication there is any orbital infrastructure at Louzy (especially with a D class port).

They are probably just parked on the tarmac.

Personally I think this is another knock against random system generation. With so many planets its not practical to try and fit them all together in a planned expansion - the challenge when you provide details at lower levels. This is where you'd want to update the Library data when adding in supplements (much easier electronically than dead-tree versions).

I would have to look up the source again. I can if you want. Just let me know.

Basically, since all starports in Imperial Space are run by the SPA, they maintain them all at a minimum of TL-12. If the TL of the planet is higher than 12, then the starport uses the higher TL. Naval Bases, Scout Bases and Waypoints, as well as Depots are at the TL of the Imperial Navy, TL-15

 

[collins355]

Two separate streams of thought this conversation triggered for me...

1) Firstly, as most know that allocations of "SDBs" to inhabited systems (remember, that doesn't necessarily have to be actual 400dT SDBs but includes bigger monitors and ground defences - so it should probably really have been called "system defence factor" or something) in the GDW FFW boardgame were done on the basis of a simple formula which has been published in quite a few places including the JTAS and online (https://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/5fwforc.htm). Louzy has 500 "SDBs" because that is what a TL8 world with an A population code got according to the formula - nothing more sophisticated than that.

In the years since, many people have pointed out issues with the formula approach. But that is how GDW did it. Later, in T4 Imperial Squadrons and Pocket Empires a slightly more sophisticated approach was taken if you want more crunch.

Equally, people have pointed out that the FFW boardgame pre-dates GDW's introduction of population multipliers* alongside the base population code. Chris Thrash spent a lot of time on this issue many moons ago, re-calculating things and showing how the Imperial Navy and the planetary defence forces should be far larger once population multipliers came into effect.

2) The conversation above in this thread shows how the bare numbers spat out by the formula can inspire all kinds of creative discussions about how or why they came to be. This is similar to how the UPP for planetary systems can inspire a lot of creative thinking. I love seeing this kind of thought about "why" something might have developed or "how" it is supported.

* FFW also pre-dated things like Marc Miller's retcon of Regina to TL12 from TL10. In the boardgame it is still TL10 and has planetary defence forces as determined by the formula for a TL10 world. The Zhodani only get 10 VP (doubled as it is a subsector capital) for conquering it, rather than 12.

 

[Condottiere]

Minefields.

 

[phavoc]

They are probably just parked on the tarmac.

Ground bases are probably better suited for this particular situation.

I would have to look up the source again. I can if you want. Just let me know.

Basically, since all starports in Imperial Space are run by the SPA, they maintain them all at a minimum of TL-12. If the TL of the planet is higher than 12, then the starport uses the higher TL. Naval Bases, Scout Bases and Waypoints, as well as Depots are at the TL of the Imperial Navy, TL-15

There's a lot of common sense there, though a TL-12 D-class starport seems a bit like an oxymoron. I'd expect that rule of thumb to only start at C-class and above. Would the SPA even bother with a D class port?

 

[phavoc]

Two separate streams of thought this conversation triggered for me...

1) Firstly, as most know that allocations of "SDBs" to inhabited systems (remember, that doesn't necessarily have to be actual 400dT SDBs but includes bigger monitors and ground defences - so it should probably really have been called "system defence factor" or something) in the GDW FFW boardgame were done on the basis of a simple formula which has been published in quite a few places including the JTAS and online (https://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/5fwforc.htm). Louzy has 500 "SDBs" because that is what a TL8 world with an A population code got according to the formula - nothing more sophisticated than that.

In the years since, many people have pointed out issues with the formula approach. But that is how GDW did it. Later, in T4 Imperial Squadrons and Pocket Empires a slightly more sophisticated approach was taken if you want more crunch.

Equally, people have pointed out that the FFW boardgame pre-dates GDW's introduction of population multipliers* alongside the base population code. Chris Thrash spent a lot of time on this issue many moons ago, re-calculating things and showing how the Imperial Navy and the planetary defence forces should be far larger once population multipliers came into effect.

2) The conversation above in this thread shows how the bare numbers spat out by the formula can inspire all kinds of creative discussions about how or why they came to be. This is similar to how the UPP for planetary systems can inspire a lot of creative thinking. I love seeing this kind of thought about "why" something might have developed or "how" it is supported.

* FFW also pre-dated things like Marc Miller's retcon of Regina to TL12 from TL10. In the boardgame it is still TL10 and has planetary defence forces as determined by the formula for a TL10 world. The Zhodani only get 10 VP (doubled as it is a subsector capital) for conquering it, rather than 12.

Yeah, one would expect a spectrum of sizes for SDBs. World (in this case sectors) building takes time if you don't want it to be just rando dice rolls. And formula's are ok, but as we continually see there are many, many head-scratcher cases. I fully understand the scope of trying to create details at this level. And this would be one of those times where it's probably better to take it a level UP rather than DOWN and not even try to describe such things. For something as large as the FFW I think it would be either better to talk about specific battles and move on, or come up with a better model that takes into account the headscratching models that Traveller has. In the Regina subsector alone there are some worlds that logically make no sense. A planet like Louzy is not exactly conducive to supporting a large population - one would expect it to be in the millions, or maybe tens of millions. The ranges that the UPP allow work against it here.

I got started with Traveller in the very first LBB's and one can see how things got continually bolted on to the game system since it's origin. Unfortunately it was also one of those game systems that never really got around to going back to the beginning and taking all that was learned and fixing things with the next edition. One would almost swear Traveller is an RPG that illustrates the classic Peanuts scenario where Lucy continually reassures Charlie Brown that she's NOT going to take away the football this time when he tried to kick it.

As I see it you have planetary systems that are responsible for policing their own borders (which, technically, end at the 100D - though personally I've always assumed that a single system owns the system out to the Oort clouds). The space between is the responsibility of the Imperium. Which would make the system defense forces (as opposed to planetary ones) the responsibility of the Imperium. Those mythical 500 SDB's would be deployed and paid for by the Imperium, as would the major ground forces and all other system infrastructure that is allocated for these forces. In that case I'd expect all of that to be TL-12 or greater since that's the Imperial standard. Equipment would be shipped in, but some things would be sourced locally (which would not be a lot for a planet like Louzy).

One could also, arguably, state that even though the Louzy system is a J-3 away from the Zho border, the system possesses no gas giants, thus requiring any invading force to take the planet and use fuel shuttles to refuel an invading fleet. Efate, being a much more valuable world, would be the better of the two locations to protect with defenses and mobile assets. Indeed, with strong planetary defenses you could deploy a fleet from Efate to strike the Zho and return to Efate with their onboard fuel (it's just J-1). Zho forces would be forced to stop at Louzy to refuel or else jump to Efate with zero fuel in their tanks and no way to retreat. Militarily it seems to only have harassing forces stationed in Louzy to force the Zho to keep a strong enough rear guard - and Imperial forces could easily keep ships popping in and out to monitor fleet movements.

I, too, like the discussion aspect rather than the neener-neener that too many conversations seem to devolve in to.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Ground bases are probably better suited for this particular situation.

There's a lot of common sense there, though a TL-12 D-class starport seems a bit like an oxymoron. I'd expect that rule of thumb to only start at C-class and above. Would the SPA even bother with a D class port?

Does the Imperium consider all Starports to be Imperial Territory or just Class C and above?

 

[collins355]

A month (or four game turns) into the war. The Zhodani have made reasonable progress through the Jewell cluster. The Louzy debacle has slowed progress to Efate. Fleets have waltzed through the neutral zone, capturing Imperial outposts at Quar and Zircon. Frenzie and Garda Vilis have fallen to the Zhodani but the Sword Worlds fleets have been contained within their border by two Imperial fleets. The Vargr have had success hopping across the border and taking Dentus and Kinorb.

Imperial reinforcement is due on turn 6.

 

[phavoc]

Does the Imperium consider all Starports to be Imperial Territory or just Class C and above?

Any Imperial port is Imperial territory. I don't know that the SPA would have anything below C, since they are pretty low on the totem pole and would only be present where there is little to no starship traffic.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Any Imperial port is Imperial territory. I don't know that the SPA would have anything below C, since they are pretty low on the totem pole and would only be present where there is little to no starship traffic.

On this I have only GURPS Starports to refer back to.



Class II port would be a Class D port in MgT2.

 

[phavoc]

On this I have only GURPS Starports to refer back to.

View attachment 6570
View attachment 6571
Class II port would be a Class D port in MgT2.

Yeah, I'm just not seeing the SPA giving two loads of Hiver crap for D-class or below starport. I'd think in their mind it would be an automated station and that's the end of that.

It's kinda like while the FAA has jurisdiction over all flights and airports in the US, the majority of general aviation places (like a D port) have no control tower or flight controllers. It's all done by the flight crews. There's simply not enough money or air traffic to justify the massive expense it would be to staff them.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah, I'm just not seeing the SPA giving two loads of Hiver crap for D-class or below starport. I'd think in their mind it would be an automated station and that's the end of that.

It's kinda like while the FAA has jurisdiction over all flights and airports in the US, the majority of general aviation places (like a D port) have no control tower or flight controllers. It's all done by the flight crews. There's simply not enough money or air traffic to justify the massive expense it would be to staff them.

Most Starports don't make money. That is not their purpose. Their purpose is Imperial control.

Found this too. Maybe it will help.


Edit - Remember that Starports are like International Airports. Spaceports are like National and Regional Airports.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, you could have a spaceport that has more facilities than the assigned starport, within the Imperium.

 

[phavoc]

View attachment 6572
Most Starports don't make money. That is not their purpose. Their purpose is Imperial control.

Found this too. Maybe it will help.
View attachment 6573

Edit - Remember that Starports are like International Airports. Spaceports are like National and Regional Airports.

Yeah, I dug my PDF of GURPS Starports out. GURPS uses a reverse classification system compared to Classic/MGT Traveller:

Classic / GURPS
Class A = Class V
Class B = Class IV
Class C = Class III
Class D = Class II
Class E = Class I

GURPS does an excellent job of details - and the defined definition has always been a sticking point with me in as much as it would not work in reality. If you read the main and sidebar portions of the descriptions, you can see where on one hand it says the Imperium subsidizes trade via starports to support free trade, and in the sidebar it talks about how ships can land and trade at non-Imperial starports (and how they can be unfair operators as well). That and the fact that the shipyards at the ports appear to be extensions of the SPA and they derive great profits from them.

The governmental structure of the Imperium also conflicts with things. You can have worlds that are xenophobic and would refuse to trade with the Imperium, as well as those who will buy/sell their children through the Imperial port. The GURPS book clearly states you CAN have non-Imperial ports, and with the lower-class ports you'd expect them to operate at a lower cost than an Imperial one since they don't have to do all the stuff an Imperial port has to (and wouldn't necessarily need subsidies either).

And there is this simple fact - it makes zero economical sense to force every starship entering a system to arrive or depart from one port - This has only been seen historically when a nation literally has a single port to support it's trade (think Rotterdam for the Netherlands - but even then you see subsidiary ports like Amsterdam and Groningen that are major ports themselves). England has London and it's many smaller ports along the Thames estuary, but it's also got major ports in Liverpool, Immigham, and others. These ports have been around for hundred of years. Other nations have the same thing - almost none have an exclusive port. It would be economically silly to have to drop your cargo off at the Imperial port of a system, to have it reloaded on another ship to be taken to another location in the system if you could have directly dropped it off. Obviously for the larger ships they'll do exactly that. But with free traders and the like, their smaller cargo capacities mean they can pick up a load from point A and deliver it directly to point B w/o having to do any of this. Though the rules are entirely unclear if they would be REQUIRED to do so or not. GURPS rules make it sound like landing anywhere other than the SPA port leaves things very dicey for the crews and cargoes. That's not really how interstellar commerce would work - any port that got a reputation for killing crews or stealing cargoes would get naturally blacklisted (even pirate bases cannot operate this way) and wither and die. Any starport that wants to exist will work mightily to ensure both cargoes and ships/crews are safe in order to stay in existence.

This idea has always, to me at least, been another one of those concepts that works if you don't shine the light of common sense on it.

 

[Condottiere]

Imperium starports serve a number of useful functions, for the Imperium.

In theory, an Imperium world has sovereignty upto a hundred diameters.

And then you have a spacestation in orbit that's extraterritorial, that can directly look down, and keep a close eye on things.

You also have one or more dirtside landing areas, where spacecraft can touch down without interference.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah, I dug my PDF of GURPS Starports out. GURPS uses a reverse classification system compared to Classic/MGT Traveller:

Classic / GURPS
Class A = Class V
Class B = Class IV
Class C = Class III
Class D = Class II
Class E = Class I

GURPS does an excellent job of details - and the defined definition has always been a sticking point with me in as much as it would not work in reality. If you read the main and sidebar portions of the descriptions, you can see where on one hand it says the Imperium subsidizes trade via starports to support free trade, and in the sidebar it talks about how ships can land and trade at non-Imperial starports (and how they can be unfair operators as well). That and the fact that the shipyards at the ports appear to be extensions of the SPA and they derive great profits from them.

The governmental structure of the Imperium also conflicts with things. You can have worlds that are xenophobic and would refuse to trade with the Imperium, as well as those who will buy/sell their children through the Imperial port. The GURPS book clearly states you CAN have non-Imperial ports, and with the lower-class ports you'd expect them to operate at a lower cost than an Imperial one since they don't have to do all the stuff an Imperial port has to (and wouldn't necessarily need subsidies either).

It also states that in Imperial Space ports are SPA ports. Outside of the Imperium, they may be SPA ports or not, depending.

And there is this simple fact - it makes zero economical sense to force every starship entering a system to arrive or depart from one port - This has only been seen historically when a nation literally has a single port to support it's trade (think Rotterdam for the Netherlands - but even then you see subsidiary ports like Amsterdam and Groningen that are major ports themselves). England has London and it's many smaller ports along the Thames estuary, but it's also got major ports in Liverpool, Immigham, and others. These ports have been around for hundred of years.

This is another flaw in your logic. Infrastructure on Earth developed along with technological improvements. There is no reason to think that worlds that didn't have to go through the same technological progession would build the same way. Look at Our railroad tracks. Why are some of our railroad tracks the same width apart as wagon wheels? Because that size was already built into the infrastructure when they went to design the railroads. So, they were restricted economically, by what came before it. On a brand-new planet, things are not built that way. They have no existing infrastructure to limit how they build their new infrastructure.

Other nations have the same thing - almost none have an exclusive port. It would be economically silly to have to drop your cargo off at the Imperial port of a system, to have it reloaded on another ship to be taken to another location in the system if you could have directly dropped it off. Obviously for the larger ships they'll do exactly that. But with free traders and the like, their smaller cargo capacities mean they can pick up a load from point A and deliver it directly to point B w/o having to do any of this. Though the rules are entirely unclear if they would be REQUIRED to do so or not. GURPS rules make it sound like landing anywhere other than the SPA port leaves things very dicey for the crews and cargoes. That's not really how interstellar commerce would work - any port that got a reputation for killing crews or stealing cargoes would get naturally blacklisted (even pirate bases cannot operate this way) and wither and die. Any starport that wants to exist will work mightily to ensure both cargoes and ships/crews are safe in order to stay in existence.

You are equating ocean commerce on Earth with interstellar commerce. What is your basis for making that assertation? You should try equating ocean trade between cities instead of countries. This will give you a more accurate picture of how it may work with spaceships. International ships must go where they can be inspected. Any international passengers must pass through "passport control". This requires infrastructure and personnel.

If I send a ship to Fort Lauderdale, how many ports are there in Fort Lauderdale? One? Same with Miami, Los Angeles, Houston, London, Shanghai, etc. Can't deliver stuff on an ocean-going cargo ship to Denver, Colorado. Has to be delivered to one of the major ports, and then switched to a different type of transportation, to go to Denver. They may be equiped to handle international cargo and passengers in small doses, but not whole cargo ships at a time. They are just not designed for that.

This idea has always, to me at least, been another one of those concepts that works if you don't shine the light of common sense on it.

You are also not taking into account government regulation. Governments want to control what comes in to their territory. Governments can't dictate to the Imperium and it is the Imperium who controls the starports. Local governments have spaceports, where they do control everything. Are you starting to see why? You are only looking at economically. These things are not only determined by economic factors. They are also effected by local government opinion on the Imperium, on outsiders, on if any hostile neighbors live nearby, also on Imperial politics, since the Imperium is who decides what Class a starport is. The Imperium builds the starports.

If you want to control all Interstellar Trade, how do you do that? You control the only place where interstellar cargo and passengers are permitted to land. This seems exactly how the Imperium is and it is economically viable, because the Imperium allows no other solution.

 

[Micky]

This idea has always, to me at least, been another one of those concepts that works if you don't shine the light of common sense on it.

Interesting subject one near and dear to me actually. That of course comes with the relative lack of detail about how the Imperium actually works. These are concepts but has there been any real detailing of the Imperial bureaucracy. It's economics. Other than Gurps: Nobles very little, and even the Gurps book was far from being more conceptual. It gave you a start for the various bureaucratic entities then maybe a paragraph two. One of the most obvious questions that comes out when one starts to move beyond shady concepts to actually detailing how the bureaucracy works is..

Most Starports don't make money.

They do not, then the common sense kicks in and the question gets asks just how does the Imperium make money. It isn't through Starports. With their no taxes (tariffs as some have come to learn haha). Their shipyards earn some credits but are capped at max 2.5k ton starships. They can't compete with the Megacorporations who dominate shipbuilding and build the biggies, civilian and military. Fees and the such are said to be able to cover the operating expenses of the starports.

I'd be curious as I am in the middle of writing up a detailed breakdown of the Imperial bureaucracy for a Core Sector Campaign Guide. The goal being the flesh it out to mine for adventure hooks for what would be a unique setting rather than the same old same old frontier based setting. The Ministry of Economics (Commerce is only a part of that, and does not pay the imperial bills, not directly at least) has been one of the most fun to write as ... it has only been given general concepts in previous and that mainly with trade and commerce, which it encourages but to what tangible effect or result?. There really is no detail how it actually works.

How does the Imperium earn credits it needs? The trillions upon trillions it needs to buy and maintain the canon toys it has. And pay the millions, billions even that work for it, both civilian and military.