FFW doing it my way

[Condottiere]

Political reasons might establish a spaceport.

If the scale of cargo is sufficient, it could pay for itself.

Passengers might prefer the more known factor of an interstellar starport.

 

[phavoc]

I will try and make this simple. For some reason only known to the gods and Mr. Miller, in the Imperium, there is only one starport per system. The starport can be made up of multiple physical locations, but it is all treated as one port. Some worlds have multiple highports which all all considered to be the same starport eventhough they are separate physical structures. Same for some worlds having multiple downports. Others have starports and spaceports, which are not considered as being the same as they have different management. There is not an SPA Port Director at the highport and another at the downport, nor would there be if there were multiple highports. They would be assigned a Deputy Director.

Another reason to not have it be as you say, anywhere planetside is reachable in like 45 minutes from the Starport. Why build more than you need? Everything goes to the starport and then is trans-shipped in a 45-minute hop after it clears customs. It makes no sense to have more unless there is just too much traffic around the "airspace" of the first starport. Even then, it is still part of the SPA starport. Obviously, a planetary government or anyone else for that matter can build a spaceport but look at the quote from High Guard.

View attachment 6595
So, even if it has all of the capabilities of starport, it may not be considered a starport for political reasons.

I'd assumed that since we were referencing GURPS Starports that we'd have continued in that same thread. On pages 14-15 it clearly states (emphasis mine):

IMPERIAL/LOCAL COMPETITION The Imperium does establish ports on select non-Imperial worlds. Often this is the first step in enticing a world to join; at other times it results from Imperial intimidation. The Imperium will not take this step unless the local government is willing to shut down or hand over any existing starport, and it will also require a commitment that the government won’t open its own starport afterward. Over the course of decades attitudes can change, and non-Imperial worlds sometimes open their own starports in direct competition with the Imperium’s service. Similarly, some worlds had no say in gaining an Imperial starport; the port may have been established before the population attained self-government. More rarely, Imperial worlds or a megacorporation based upon them feel a need to open a competitive site. Strangely enough, the provisions prohibiting most Imperial worlds from opening their own major starports have largely expired, making this move legal on most worlds (if often unwise).

OUTPOSTS OF THE IMPERIUM If these starports are of similar size, and serve the same traffic flows, the Imperial port will usually have a long-term advantage, because it doesn’t need to show profits. In turn, the local port authority can influence local traffic to use their port – governments usually push the patriotism button while megacorporations suggest to vendors that orders are filled “more smoothly” through their own port. The Imperium will not allow a world that has agreed to host an Imperial starport to charge lower taxes or tariffs at a local competitor. (It may charge higher rates. That’s its own business.)

Since the SPA collects tax and tariff revenues before handing them over to the local government, it enforces this by simply lowering its own port’s collections to match the terms at the local starport. Unless very unusual circumstances exist, opening a competing starport will signify (or at least start) diplomatic tension between the Imperium and the host world or megacorporation. Still, the costs involved mandate that the SPA not simply close its doors when rivals appear. In addition, the opening of an Imperial starport establishes a sort of guarantee of quality of service when traveling through that system. The Starport Authority hesitates to void that guarantee without excellent cause.

GURPS has the best explanation for starports since it dedicates an entire supplement to their explanation, operation and construction (along with copious examples). In the same supplement it touches on spaceports vs starports, but doesn't really go into a lot of depth on the topic.

 

[phavoc]

Political reasons might establish a spaceport.

If the scale of cargo is sufficient, it could pay for itself.

Passengers might prefer the more known factor of an interstellar starport.

Spacecraft destinations will be dictated by a few things, and passengers and cargo will be treated differently (that cargo not being carried in the belly of a passenger liner that is).

Cargo destinations will depend upon a few things - is the destination a waypoint? Smaller worlds may feed a central location for consolidation. Worlds that are on a central chain may have cargo's dropped off by major carriers who then reload and return to their previous route. Speculative cargo is an outlier, but most other cargos carried in containers and such will follow this rule. GURPS predicted heavy LASH usage, though it may, arguably, fail in the future much like it has failed in the present (sunk costs for operations don't make it competitive, and containerization makes moving cargo about as cheap as you can get it).

For cargo the exceptions are greater than passengers. Smaller lots of cargo that can find a freighter to carry directly to their destination will bypass the main world/starport and be delivered directly to the port of destination. This could even be on the mainworld itself - bypassing the Imperial port to drop it off at say an industrial port makes more sense and saves on having to haul it from the main port. This is even more likely on worlds that don't have established transport networks, or where the destinations are 1,000s of Km apart. A starship can land directly at the port, discharge it's cargo and move on the Imperial port to pick up or look for it's next run (a whole different discussion though on free traders vs. scheduled ones). When you have a well-developed star system with ports and colonies on different worlds, you may also find this to be the method used. The larger freighters won't do it, but smaller ones would need, and want, to do it in order to take the cargo away from the big boys. Flexibility is their primary reason for existence as basic cargo all pays the same rate, so making it cheaper to deliver gets you the job.

A balkanized world will have many competing star ports and spaceports. The economics are less of an attraction than having control of your port and your trade - and the farther you are away from the SPA controlled port the more likely you'll be taking your own cargos directly from the ships that can land. Anything that has to use just a high port will fall into a separate category though (skipped for now as a discussion point). Nationalism and the desire for control will (reasonably) trump the economics of having a single port for an entire world. As worlds get more populous and industrialized it just makes sense to load cargos locally rather than ship them to a central location and then on to a starship. Of course there will be exceptions, but as a rule of thumb you should see a healthy mix of both on high-pop / high-ind worlds.

Passengers though will want to centralize where possible because that makes the most sense for connections. Probably you'll see more passenger liners dock at high ports to drop off and take on their people cargo. However, just like some major cities that have multiple airports, you may see the major inbound/outbound traffic from systems 1,2 and 3 using Port A, and the inbound/outbound traffic from system 4, 5, 6 using Port B. Port C may be the one used for the insystem traffic. It's possible to build one giant port to handle it all, but there's no real reason to do so if it makes more sense to build separate ports. How much interline traffic occurs will also help dictate that process. Today we see many cities around the world with multiple busy airports that do just this - NYC is serve by three busy airports, London and Paris both have multiple airports, and other cities around the world also do the same.

Passenger traffic is where you are less likely to see intra-stellar traffic bypassing the mainworld, but it won't be unheard of if the system possesses enough characteristics to justify doing so. System XYZ may have the main Imperial port on Planet A, which is the mainworld, but in the same system there is a substantial presence on Planet B, and some smaller liners may travel directly to that planet if there is enough traffic to justify it doing so. Point-to-point traffic is used by the majors, but smaller airlines use point to point. Both are economically viable and carry tremendous amounts of people. Transatlantic traffic between Europe and the US was the same during it's peak - you saw a lot of liners from England, France and Germany docking in NYC, however you still had liners docking in Boston, Baltimore and Philadelphia. For Traveller I believe the system of Glisten is another example of ports spread out from just the main port (everything is a high port since it's asteroid belt). I forgot which supplement did a big writeup of the system talking about the major belt habitats and industrial centers.

So using history as a guide I am of the opinion that this will continue to work for the same reasons it's worked throughout human history in a similar manner - economics and efficiency will always war with a drive for centralized control. And since the Imperium is all about the mighty credit and free trade, I belive the model put forth in the books runs smack into the wall of common sense. GURPS acknowledges other ports will exists but heavily argues towards ships wanting to use SPA-operated ports. I argue that this is a weak argument, for many instances, though not all. What would be nice is to see more models of fully developed star systems rather than having everything concentrated on just the one world. A star system is pretty vast, and you are just gonna have so much resource wealth in that system that it's cheaper to exploit it there than it is to go elsewhere (in most cases - finding palladium, platinum, even massive rich and easily extracted sources of iron lying on the ground may trump digging it out of the ground.

 

[mavikfelna]

Perfect example of a world with multiple ports is Umemii in The Borderlands, p 116. The various ports compete for business that comes into the system. it's not an Imperial system, no so SPA, but it illustrate the situation in a canon system.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Spacecraft destinations will be dictated by a few things, and passengers and cargo will be treated differently (that cargo not being carried in the belly of a passenger liner that is).

Cargo destinations will depend upon a few things - is the destination a waypoint? Smaller worlds may feed a central location for consolidation. Worlds that are on a central chain may have cargo's dropped off by major carriers who then reload and return to their previous route. Speculative cargo is an outlier, but most other cargos carried in containers and such will follow this rule. GURPS predicted heavy LASH usage, though it may, arguably, fail in the future much like it has failed in the present (sunk costs for operations don't make it competitive, and containerization makes moving cargo about as cheap as you can get it).

For cargo the exceptions are greater than passengers. Smaller lots of cargo that can find a freighter to carry directly to their destination will bypass the main world/starport and be delivered directly to the port of destination. This could even be on the mainworld itself - bypassing the Imperial port to drop it off at say an industrial port makes more sense and saves on having to haul it from the main port. This is even more likely on worlds that don't have established transport networks, or where the destinations are 1,000s of Km apart.

No one cares if it is thousands of kms apart. It only takes 45 minutes.

A starship can land directly at the port, discharge it's cargo and move on the Imperial port to pick up or look for it's next run (a whole different discussion though on free traders vs. scheduled ones).

and pay twice the docking fees. If they are smaller owner/operators as you're are talking about, this will increase their costs.

When you have a well-developed star system with ports and colonies on different worlds, you may also find this to be the method used. The larger freighters won't do it, but smaller ones would need, and want, to do it in order to take the cargo away from the big boys.

They won't be taking cargo from the big boys because all of the cargo for the big boys is already on contract. The little guys like Travellers have no contracts and all of the brokers are at the starport.

Flexibility is their primary reason for existence as basic cargo all pays the same rate, so making it cheaper to deliver gets you the job.

A balkanized world will have many competing star ports and spaceports. The economics are less of an attraction than having control of your port and your trade - and the farther you are away from the SPA controlled port the more likely you'll be taking your own cargos directly from the ships that can land. Anything that has to use just a high port will fall into a separate category though (skipped for now as a discussion point). Nationalism and the desire for control will (reasonably) trump the economics of having a single port for an entire world. As worlds get more populous and industrialized it just makes sense to load cargos locally rather than ship them to a central location and then on to a starship. Of course there will be exceptions, but as a rule of thumb you should see a healthy mix of both on high-pop / high-ind worlds.

The Imperium doesn't care if your world is Balkanized, the starport is theirs and they will starve any competition to the Imperial port. Including "random" customs inspections while transiting to 100D, problems with ship registries in Imperial ports due to "possible smuggling activity", etc. Pissing off the Imperium isn't worth it for those who have to live and work within Imperial Space.

Passengers though will want to centralize where possible because that makes the most sense for connections. Probably you'll see more passenger liners dock at high ports to drop off and take on their people cargo. However, just like some major cities that have multiple airports, you may see the major inbound/outbound traffic from systems 1,2 and 3 using Port A, and the inbound/outbound traffic from system 4, 5, 6 using Port B. Port C may be the one used for the insystem traffic. It's possible to build one giant port to handle it all, but there's no real reason to do so if it makes more sense to build separate ports. How much interline traffic occurs will also help dictate that process. Today we see many cities around the world with multiple busy airports that do just this - NYC is serve by three busy airports, London and Paris both have multiple airports, and other cities around the world also do the same.

Passenger traffic is where you are less likely to see intra-stellar traffic bypassing the mainworld, but it won't be unheard of if the system possesses enough characteristics to justify doing so. System XYZ may have the main Imperial port on Planet A, which is the mainworld, but in the same system there is a substantial presence on Planet B, and some smaller liners may travel directly to that planet if there is enough traffic to justify it doing so.

and the port on planet B would be a spaceport, not a starport. (In the OTU anyhow. IYTU it works however you wish.)

Point-to-point traffic is used by the majors, but smaller airlines use point to point. Both are economically viable and carry tremendous amounts of people. Transatlantic traffic between Europe and the US was the same during it's peak - you saw a lot of liners from England, France and Germany docking in NYC, however you still had liners docking in Boston, Baltimore and Philadelphia. For Traveller I believe the system of Glisten is another example of ports spread out from just the main port (everything is a high port since it's asteroid belt). I forgot which supplement did a big writeup of the system talking about the major belt habitats and industrial centers.

It is several separate parts, but they are all considered part of the same starport with the exception of the megacorporate shipyards which have their own spaceport.

So using history as a guide I am of the opinion that this will continue to work for the same reasons it's worked throughout human history in a similar manner - economics and efficiency will always war with a drive for centralized control. And since the Imperium is all about the mighty credit and free trade, I belive the model put forth in the books runs smack into the wall of common sense. GURPS acknowledges other ports will exists but heavily argues towards ships wanting to use SPA-operated ports. I argue that this is a weak argument, for many instances, though not all. What would be nice is to see more models of fully developed star systems rather than having everything concentrated on just the one world. A star system is pretty vast, and you are just gonna have so much resource wealth in that system that it's cheaper to exploit it there than it is to go elsewhere (in most cases - finding palladium, platinum, even massive rich and easily extracted sources of iron lying on the ground may trump digging it out of the ground.

Maybe it would help you if you considered interstellar trade more like intercity trade. Stuff going to the city (destination world) from another city (the production world) is delivered to a distribution center (the starport). From there it is delivered to all of the local customers (cities, spaceports, and system colonies.. Traveling from the starport to anywhere on the same planet is 45 minutes or less. Those are city delivery times. Back at the starport the ship that delivered these goods will be loaded with other goods bound for another system. Everything is gathered at the starport so ships don't have to waste time travelling to more than one port in a system to get their cargo. Things are done this way because it benefits the Imperium and the Megacorporations, as everything they need is in one place. Money and power control the Imperium. That is why I disagree with what you call common sense, as it seems to not take human corruption into account.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Perfect example of a world with multiple ports is Umemii in The Borderlands, p 116. The various ports compete for business that comes into the system. it's not an Imperial system, no so SPA, but it illustrate the situation in a canon system.

View attachment 6597

This is common outside of Imperial Space. Most Aslan worlds have a starport for each influencial clan on the world.

Edit - Also note, they are called spaceports, not starports.

 

[Vormaerin]

Most systems have multiple spaceports. What the *Imperium* imposes is that there is *one* port that is the IMPERIAL STARPORT. That one is the one that is extraterritorial to the planetary government, has all the Imperial services, and generally is the most important for those reasons.

But there's lots of other ports. Corporate owned ports. Ports at colony worlds. Alternate space ports operated by the planetary government.

The Imperial Starport is probably the best port open to the public. But even that isn't guaranteed.

 

[rinku]

TLDR... it's a population A world in a strategic spot. A reminder:



A Zho fleet needs J-4 to get to Yres or Menorb. Or Efate, but Efate is THE major choke point and Naval fortress system on that front.

Louzy is far too populous to quickly occupy - but also has no gas giants, so you HAVE to go to the water on the planet.

It doesn't MATTER what Louzy's native tech is, or how dire their economy is - the Imperial Navy is going to station major defense assets there just to help protect their entire Spinward flank. But it's still a high population, pre-stellar, industrial world... it's got resources and a pretty big tax base.

 

[Micky]

You're right that this hasn't been fully detailed (GDW were wargamers, not economists) but there are some hints in odd places...
View attachment 6593
(CT/Striker Book 2, page 38)

yeah again a nice concept but as Phavoc so wisely noted... put the light of common sense detailing on the concept and ...

who sets that planetary military budget... not the 'hands off' of sovereign planetary affairs Imperium for sure ... and considering the vast majority of Imperial worlds are safe, in the Imperial interior, and joined the Imperium in large part for a peace dividend. Planets simply aren't going to spend that much on a military budget, that is why they joined the Imperium, to protect them. From both external and internal threats. Thus being free to enjoy material prosperity not to invest in militaries that ..quite frankly... may never in their lifetimes be needed.

 

[phavoc]

No one cares if it is thousands of kms apart. It only takes 45 minutes.

I think you overestimate the speed of a transport in-atmosphere. Traveller freighters are rarely streamlined and they can't make that kind of speed. to make hop around the planet means poking around in-atmo, or going up to the stratos or mesophere where the atmo is thin enough to make speed.

and pay twice the docking fees. If they are smaller owner/operators as you're are talking about, this will increase their costs.

Why would you assume that? It's not like a D-class port costs much to build - stabilize some earth or even pave it, set up a transponder and you have a port. Have a water tank and you have fuel. When you start getting into other size ports costs go up. Imperial ports would generally be MORE expensive to operate due to their needing to provide a lot more things than a private port might need (or want to do). And if the Imperium is willing to subsidize its ports then a nation might as well for multiple various reasons.

They won't be taking cargo from the big boys because all of the cargo for the big boys is already on contract. The little guys like Travellers have no contracts and all of the brokers are at the starport.

In general, probably not. Where they will take cargo is from the spot market or else from the direct market. Smaller freight companies that are established can regularly compete with the big guys on many routes - especially in the direct delivery market. They actually have an advantage there because they don't have the hub-and-spoke expenses. Being established or staking a claim on the smaller routes gives you opportunities that big boys can't compete on due to low volume.

Though as we've seen, if you are big enough and willing to take on the losses you can bankrupt rivals through legal, if unethical, actions. American did it to Braniff by paying a $10 bounty for every Braniff ticket sold by travel agents that was printed on American ticket stock. American had 90 days to pay Braniff it's fares and it paid on the 90th day. They starved them of capital and Braniff never could recover.

The Imperium doesn't care if your world is Balkanized, the starport is theirs and they will starve any competition to the Imperial port. Including "random" customs inspections while transiting to 100D, problems with ship registries in Imperial ports due to "possible smuggling activity", etc. Pissing off the Imperium isn't worth it for those who have to live and work within Imperial Space.

The Imperium has vast wealth, but they also have vast expenses. It won't operate a port at massive losses since it still expects every port to be more or less self-sustaining or a profit center. The Imperium is also supposed to be doing all this in order to make trade as even a field of playing as possible. It's entirely probable that they could, or even do, break their own rules when convenient. But as a general rule of thumb they are supposed to be the 'good' guys.

And I think we've already established that the IMPERIAL port is Imperium territory - but that's it. A planet with other ports may have significant traffic bypass Imperial ports all day, every day. The assumption being made here is that Imperial ports are the de jeure port in every system - and that just doesn't pass the sniff test.

Legally, up to the 100D limit is planetary control not Imperial. So long as you aren't harassing traders who declare transit to the Imperial port there isn't much the planet can do to those starships. Conversely, if the ship makes it to the 100D limit its subject to planetary laws - if it declares it's docking at a planetary port. This is a legal conundrum built into the Imperial design. The rules are pretty clear about the delineation between planetary rule and Imperial rule. In this case the planets have the legal right to tell Imperial vessels to stand down unless Imperial law is being broken. While the Imperials have the iron fist, they are also limited in what they use it on without triggering internal problems. No single system can stand up to them, but they also depend on the systems to not be in open revolt.

and the port on planet B would be a spaceport, not a starport. (In the OTU anyhow. IYTU it works however you wish.)

GURPS clearly calls out that other ports (non-Imperial) may also be full starports. Its canon-Traveller, not my Traveller. I quoted the GURPS section in a previous post.

It is several separate parts, but they are all considered part of the same starport with the exception of the megacorporate shipyards which have their own spaceport.

So at what point would a separate facility be considered separate? I have no issue with the downport/highport combo as two separate facilities but one entity. But by the same token you could have two downports and two highports (as well as additional orbital facilities located on an orbiting planetoid or at the 100D limit. Using the Glisten example, you may have facilities that are an AU apart. I would not classify those as being the same starport.

Maybe it would help you if you considered interstellar trade more like intercity trade. Stuff going to the city (destination world) from another city (the production world) is delivered to a distribution center (the starport). From there it is delivered to all of the local customers (cities, spaceports, and system colonies.. Traveling from the starport to anywhere on the same planet is 45 minutes or less. Those are city delivery times. Back at the starport the ship that delivered these goods will be loaded with other goods bound for another system. Everything is gathered at the starport so ships don't have to waste time travelling to more than one port in a system to get their cargo. Things are done this way because it benefits the Imperium and the Megacorporations, as everything they need is in one place. Money and power control the Imperium. That is why I disagree with what you call common sense, as it seems to not take human corruption into account.

We can use intercity as an example. And we can use trucks or rail as an example. Let's say I have a container being unloaded at the Port of Los Angeles and I need to get it to NYC. I have a few options here. If I put it on a truck I can have it driven straight through. If I have it put on a train I can also have it driven straight through on the same train. Both options take me a few days at least. Now, if I had say LTL freight - that's most likely not gonna make it straight through. Both truck and rail are going to move that cargo X distance to a hub where it gets unloaded and reloaded and moved again.

45min ain't gonna get you from LA to NYC unless you can travel 4,000 MPH. To make that kind of speed you have to be streamlined, at a minimum, and you are going to heat up like crazy at low altitude not to mention you'll be making sonic booms. To make that 2,800 mile trip it would be more practicaly to go vertical, then horizontal, then descend. I don't think it's reasonable to expect all that in 45min - let alone make a 12,000km trip. The notion that you can make Mach 6 in a ship equipped with a 6G drive flys in the face of aerodynamics. One can just look at the ship illustrations and see that the flight dynamics for some of these craft would be nuts. High-speed flight requires more than just brute force - which has many drawbacks as well.

What you are proposing is pure hub and spoke - incoming ships from outsystem woudl drop cargo at the highport/downport and then it gets picked up by the planetary network for delivery onplanet or insystem. I thought I had stated that this will work for some of the cargo. However hub-and-spoke cannot economically compete with point-to-point across the board. That is impossible and illogical. I can pick up my 50dtons of cargo in my Free trader at Port A in system A and deliver it to spaceport ZZ in System B directly rather than drop it off at Port B in System B and then have someone else have to pick it up and fly it somewhere else on the planet, or say 2 days out to Planetoid ZZ to drop it off.

For some the system you are proposing works because you don't have to think about it and you don't have concern yourself with the actual process or logistics. Things magically work and everyone is happy. Others might want to actually to game this out because they are looking for more opportunities to adventure, encounter, or whatever. Having clear explanations on how it works, for both large and small, can be an important (and fun) detail for some, or needless blah-blah-blah for others. But if it ain't in the books you can't do any of it well unless you want to devolve to IMTU - which if you are paying for a great supplement like GURPS Starports, then I expect them to have it detailed out to some degree (which they did).

 

[phavoc]

Most systems have multiple spaceports. What the *Imperium* imposes is that there is *one* port that is the IMPERIAL STARPORT. That one is the one that is extraterritorial to the planetary government, has all the Imperial services, and generally is the most important for those reasons.

But there's lots of other ports. Corporate owned ports. Ports at colony worlds. Alternate space ports operated by the planetary government.

The Imperial Starport is probably the best port open to the public. But even that isn't guaranteed.

This is where a clear explanation benefits everyone. Many versions of Traveller have assumed the starport listed on the map is THE starport. GURPS Starports goes into some detail and provides explanations why a planet can have multiple STARports - but it too slants the explanation to the Imperial port is the one to rule them all. Historically and economically that has proven to not be how humanity has done it.

There are many advantages, and disadvantages, to having a singular facility. It's certainly not required thoug, and in many cases, it would be contraindicated because its more effecient to operate multiple locations and spread things around. There is no logical reason why even our own planet would have a singular starport to service NA, Europe, Asia, and Australia regions. Each zone if populous enough and industrialized enough to generate sufficient cargo and passengers - though people are a bit different in that they are the most time-sensitive of all cargos.

Each region having it's own port means you can shrink the footprint of it as well - which on some planets the size of the port can get limited based on what's growing around it. Sure, you can build a new one (we do it all the time with airports), but that also costs money. And in the case of the Imperium it means you would have to negotiate for new land if your previous plot wasn't large enough. It's probably not reasonable to assume the SPA always gets 100 sq miles of territory on every planet for any size port. While one can certainly wave the magic wand and make it so, Imperials are like everyone else and they plan and sometimes those plans turn out correct and others don't.

The TL question isn't easily answerable. Imperial standard TL is 12. A planet with a TL of 14 or 15 may not necessarily translate into the IMPERIAL port being of the same TL. For the most part there is no need - local TL 14/15 equipment can be purchased onplanet and loaded/installed at the port easily enough. A ship coming in for repairs that is TL15 may need to go to the non-Imperial yard to get access to TL14/15 repair bays, or maybe the Imperial port has some, but since it has to support a wide range of TL's as the standard, they could all be booked up.

There's myriad of ways to look at this. I just choose to look through the prism of possibilities to see multiple ways to make it work without trying to bust canon or hand-wave anything.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

I think you overestimate the speed of a transport in-atmosphere. Traveller freighters are rarely streamlined and they can't make that kind of speed.

The archtypical PC freight vessels, Free Trader, both Far Traders and the subsidized Merchant are ALL streamlined and these are the type of PC vessels people are talking about.

The big companies might not streamline those big ships (one more cost savings for them) but they are also the type to be able to get dispensations to land wherever they want or (literally) shuttle cargo wherever it needs to go with everything prepped for rapid unloading and shipping to final destination as soon as they land. They will get top priority and the vagabond Far/Free Trader will get to land hours or even days later.

 

[phavoc]

TLDR... it's a population A world in a strategic spot. A reminder:

View attachment 6598

A Zho fleet needs J-4 to get to Yres or Menorb. Or Efate, but Efate is THE major choke point and Naval fortress system on that front.

Louzy is far too populous to quickly occupy - but also has no gas giants, so you HAVE to go to the water on the planet.

It doesn't MATTER what Louzy's native tech is, or how dire their economy is - the Imperial Navy is going to station major defense assets there just to help protect their entire Spinward flank. But it's still a high population, pre-stellar, industrial world... it's got resources and a pretty big tax base.

This assumes the Imperium is going to want to try and make stand at Louzy rather than concentrate it's fleets at Efate and fight a holding action/delaying action in Louzy. There are multiple ways to fight a Zho bridgehead. Having spoiling forces defending the lousy water resources of Louzy might be easier and cheaper (underwater missile batteries firing on fuel transports is cheap, or homing torpedoes in the water, etc). Sure, it would be 2 weeks before forces from Efate could get to Louzy, but it also means Efate will have days, if not longer, to prep it's defenses so the Zho cannot do a sneak attack on them.

The Louzy local economy and tech base are also, well, lousy. The planet is a mostly played-out mining colony with people who are too poor to leave it. So any real naval forces there would have to be Imperial and produced/supported from out-system. That's an expensive proposition for a Navy that already has too much to space to cover and not enough hulls to do it with.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think you overestimate the speed of a transport in-atmosphere. Traveller freighters are rarely streamlined and they can't make that kind of speed. to make hop around the planet means poking around in-atmo, or going up to the stratos or mesophere where the atmo is thin enough to make speed.

Why would you assume that? It's not like a D-class port costs much to build - stabilize some earth or even pave it, set up a transponder and you have a port. Have a water tank and you have fuel. When you start getting into other size ports costs go up. Imperial ports would generally be MORE expensive to operate due to their needing to provide a lot more things than a private port might need (or want to do). And if the Imperium is willing to subsidize its ports then a nation might as well for multiple various reasons.

In general, probably not. Where they will take cargo is from the spot market or else from the direct market. Smaller freight companies that are established can regularly compete with the big guys on many routes - especially in the direct delivery market. They actually have an advantage there because they don't have the hub-and-spoke expenses. Being established or staking a claim on the smaller routes gives you opportunities that big boys can't compete on due to low volume.

Though as we've seen, if you are big enough and willing to take on the losses you can bankrupt rivals through legal, if unethical, actions. American did it to Braniff by paying a $10 bounty for every Braniff ticket sold by travel agents that was printed on American ticket stock. American had 90 days to pay Braniff it's fares and it paid on the 90th day. They starved them of capital and Braniff never could recover.

The Imperium has vast wealth, but they also have vast expenses. It won't operate a port at massive losses since it still expects every port to be more or less self-sustaining or a profit center. The Imperium is also supposed to be doing all this in order to make trade as even a field of playing as possible. It's entirely probable that they could, or even do, break their own rules when convenient. But as a general rule of thumb they are supposed to be the 'good' guys.

And I think we've already established that the IMPERIAL port is Imperium territory - but that's it. A planet with other ports may have significant traffic bypass Imperial ports all day, every day. The assumption being made here is that Imperial ports are the de jeure port in every system - and that just doesn't pass the sniff test.

Legally, up to the 100D limit is planetary control not Imperial. So long as you aren't harassing traders who declare transit to the Imperial port there isn't much the planet can do to those starships. Conversely, if the ship makes it to the 100D limit its subject to planetary laws - if it declares it's docking at a planetary port. This is a legal conundrum built into the Imperial design. The rules are pretty clear about the delineation between planetary rule and Imperial rule. In this case the planets have the legal right to tell Imperial vessels to stand down unless Imperial law is being broken. While the Imperials have the iron fist, they are also limited in what they use it on without triggering internal problems. No single system can stand up to them, but they also depend on the systems to not be in open revolt.

GURPS clearly calls out that other ports (non-Imperial) may also be full starports. Its canon-Traveller, not my Traveller. I quoted the GURPS section in a previous post.

So at what point would a separate facility be considered separate? I have no issue with the downport/highport combo as two separate facilities but one entity. But by the same token you could have two downports and two highports (as well as additional orbital facilities located on an orbiting planetoid or at the 100D limit. Using the Glisten example, you may have facilities that are an AU apart. I would not classify those as being the same starport.

We can use intercity as an example. And we can use trucks or rail as an example. Let's say I have a container being unloaded at the Port of Los Angeles and I need to get it to NYC. I have a few options here. If I put it on a truck I can have it driven straight through. If I have it put on a train I can also have it driven straight through on the same train. Both options take me a few days at least. Now, if I had say LTL freight - that's most likely not gonna make it straight through. Both truck and rail are going to move that cargo X distance to a hub where it gets unloaded and reloaded and moved again.

45min ain't gonna get you from LA to NYC unless you can travel 4,000 MPH. To make that kind of speed you have to be streamlined, at a minimum, and you are going to heat up like crazy at low altitude not to mention you'll be making sonic booms. To make that 2,800 mile trip it would be more practicaly to go vertical, then horizontal, then descend. I don't think it's reasonable to expect all that in 45min - let alone make a 12,000km trip. The notion that you can make Mach 6 in a ship equipped with a 6G drive flys in the face of aerodynamics. One can just look at the ship illustrations and see that the flight dynamics for some of these craft would be nuts. High-speed flight requires more than just brute force - which has many drawbacks as well.

What you are proposing is pure hub and spoke - incoming ships from outsystem woudl drop cargo at the highport/downport and then it gets picked up by the planetary network for delivery onplanet or insystem. I thought I had stated that this will work for some of the cargo. However hub-and-spoke cannot economically compete with point-to-point across the board. That is impossible and illogical. I can pick up my 50dtons of cargo in my Free trader at Port A in system A and deliver it to spaceport ZZ in System B directly rather than drop it off at Port B in System B and then have someone else have to pick it up and fly it somewhere else on the planet, or say 2 days out to Planetoid ZZ to drop it off.

For some the system you are proposing works because you don't have to think about it and you don't have concern yourself with the actual process or logistics. Things magically work and everyone is happy. Others might want to actually to game this out because they are looking for more opportunities to adventure, encounter, or whatever. Having clear explanations on how it works, for both large and small, can be an important (and fun) detail for some, or needless blah-blah-blah for others. But if it ain't in the books you can't do any of it well unless you want to devolve to IMTU - which if you are paying for a great supplement like GURPS Starports, then I expect them to have it detailed out to some degree (which they did).

Streamlined and Aerofins. 45 minutes or less.

 

[phavoc]

The archtypical PC freight vessels, Free Trader, both Far Traders and the subsidized Merchant are ALL streamlined and these are the type of PC vessels people are talking about.

The big companies might not streamline those big ships (one more cost savings for them) but they are also the type to be able to get dispensations to land wherever they want or (literally) shuttle cargo wherever it needs to go with everything prepped for rapid unloading and shipping to final destination as soon as they land. They will get top priority and the vagabond Far/Free Trader will get to land hours or even days later.

I'm talking actual streamlining, the kind that a high-speed aircraft needs in order to fly. I know what the book says, and one look at the images will show you that these craft are NOT streamlined in the dictionary sense. Oh, they can do a few hundred KPH with ease, but you start getting closer to mach numbers and their hulls will start pulling all kinds of vortices, shockwaves and buffeting. Sure, the magic of anti-gravity means they never have to fight conventional lift factors. But they still have to live with aerodynamic laws. They won't fall out of the sky, but at speed they'll build up massive heat and buffeting. And the faster they go the worse it gets.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm talking actual streamlining, the kind that a high-speed aircraft needs in order to fly. I know what the book says, and one look at the images will show you that these craft are NOT streamlined in the dictionary sense. Oh, they can do a few hundred KPH with ease, but you start getting closer to mach numbers and their hulls will start pulling all kinds of vortices, shockwaves and buffeting. Sure, the magic of anti-gravity means they never have to fight conventional lift factors. But they still have to live with aerodynamic laws. They won't fall out of the sky, but at speed they'll build up massive heat and buffeting. And the faster they go the worse it gets.

I think you need to learn the difference between the art and the rules. Or do you think Aslan are 12' tall now?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

I'm talking actual streamlining, the kind that a high-speed aircraft needs in order to fly.

So not streamlined by the rules but by your own personal definition.

Don't forget they can flight at high altitudes where there streamlining is less important and should be able to achieve multi Mach speeds as they do so on their way to orbit.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Isn't there a rule in a book somewhere, not sure what edition, that covers the speed of spacecraft in an atmosphere? FFS maybe?

 

[phavoc]

View attachment 6609
Streamlined and Aerofins. 45 minutes or less.
View attachment 6610

I can't, and won't, argue with a book that doesn't follow the actual rules of aerodynamics. The book(s) can say what they want, but I won't believe any spacecraft in Traveller is capable of Mach 35.

The rule designers got this way wrong.

 

[phavoc]

So not streamlined by the rules but by your own personal definition.

Don't forget they can flight at high altitudes where there streamlining is less important and should be able to achieve multi Mach speeds as they do so on their way to orbit.

They aren't flying bricks, but they are also not streamlined enough to make the speeds that MasterGwydion posted.

The first issue is one of materials science - we already know Traveller hulls are magically strong.

The second issue is how airflow works. Even the smallest protrusion or surface change can produce a lot pressure and airflow shocks - and the faster you go the worse it gets. These 'streamlined' ships are fine at lower atmospheric speeds, but they'd have to expend so much energy and effort to maintain control that it's not practical - even if it was possible (and since they have no magical field surrounding their craft other than the magic of anti-grav) they are still subject to the laws of aerodynamics. The only one they get a pass on is lift since they don't need it. They still have to deal with drag and the other forces that would be fighting them for just flying in a straight line.