FFW doing it my way

collins355

Emperor Mongoose
Have commenced solo game of GDW's Fifth Frontier War. Using a couple of house rules to assist getting a better challenge and avoid the need for pre-plotted orders.

SEtup with Imperial forces ready to meet (actually run from!) the five Zhodani assault fleets and four Outworld Coalition ally fleets.
 

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Not perfectly!

Instead of pre-plotting a number of turns based on the admiral's number, I'm taking that number and using it as a "target number" to roll against to "activate" a fleet/admiral. (Many modern wargames use such a mechanic to activate units)
 
That doesn't solve the problem of comm lag.

The point is you do not know where the enemy is when you recieve intel on theri past position, and you don't know where they are going to be. where they are going to be.

Which modern games model a 2 to six week comm lag with an activation roll?
 
If you want to model it (and let's be honest, that's gonna be hard), the side on offense has to pre-plot their movement, and at each encounter they'd have to roll on a chart that basically says - 'engage, stooge around, or withdraw'. And the defenders would do the same, except their withdrawl would be to random locations, based on how the commander thinks it should happen.

Defenders would have already planned on where to go in case of a fighting withdrawl. While you CAN say that a defender would engage only if forces were roughly equal, you also have to allow for the human condition of a commander thinking he's seeing a window of opportunity or something along those lines. It's how command works in reality - the local commander will make decisions based on his standing orders as well as his analysis of the situation in front of him. Heck, some might go blindly charging into terrible odds because they have to die for the Imperium or something silly like that.

You'd also have to set up nodal command points and plot out, for each fleet, what they were to do for X turns before information could flow back to the command staff and they could make a decision and get the commands back to the fleets. Pincer movements taking advantage of new information can easily blow up in your face if the enemy retreats or reinforces a location and changes the expected odds, not to mention you could waste weeks of preparation by emerging in a system w/o any real enemy presence to crush.

Most people really don't get the communication lag concept today since we really don't have it. There is a Starfire novel called Insurrection where the information about an insurrection on the frontier first shows up back on Terra. As usual someone says "we'll crush them with XX", and then someone points out that the information is already 4 months old. So there's gonna be a lot of random rolling and commanders will say "let's reinforce XX fleet" and that part of the line of battle gets reinforcements which may, or may not, turn the tide of battle.

Your attacker is obviously going to have it easier in planning, as they will set out their goals in advance with plans for fleets to link up or reduce nodal fleets/planets. Defenders have to react w/o much planning and fall back along pre-determined routes - but as defenders they typically enjoy certain advantages as well. Like all battles, eventually the success of the attacker means their lines of communication and supply get extended and the defenders get shorter, so things can easily flip at certain battles.

I think because you have so much randomness tossed in a strategic war of this kind is not very fun. If you played some of the early computer games like SSI's Star Fleet game (i forget the name), but you plotted out 32 impulses of play, and you put in about when you expected to fire your weapons, which meant you were looking into the crystal ball thinking where the enemy is going to be in XX turns. At the end you got to see where your ship was in relation to the enemy and then you repeated it. It wasn't a very fun game, though it was a closer simulator of having to think ahead and make decisions like you are wanting to do for your FFW game.
 
FFW as written doesn't fully model comm lag and lack of intel anyway
- firstly, both players have full view of the board and can see where enemy fleets are at all times (which is wholly unrealistic if we're being pedantic);
- secondly, a significant number of admirals in the countermix are allowed to react in advance of where comm lag would strictly let them (for example Duke Norris can react instantly)

One could envisage a much stricter play model that used double-blind mechanisms, two or maybe three complete gameboards and sets of counters and a referee to hew more closely to the "communication at the speed of travel" restrictions of the OTU and deny the players intel. I don't have the luxury of any of those things, and I suspect most people who might even vaguely consider playing FFW don't either.

Instead I'm just trying out this activation mechanic as a solo option, in the full knowledge it isn't perfect.

I'd of course welcome suggestions of a better mechanic.
 
To be fair, there's an unseen flow of information (at one week per jump... but not one week per hex) from non-fleet assets such as individual spy ships and commercial traffic, and I would expect that all sides are using intensive modelling to inform their movements.

(Norris' perk is mostly to model him taking charge and essentially being the centre of action... and maybe a degree of reckless competency and luck?)
 
FFW as written doesn't fully model comm lag and lack of intel anyway
- firstly, both players have full view of the board and can see where enemy fleets are at all times (which is wholly unrealistic if we're being pedantic);
- secondly, a significant number of admirals in the countermix are allowed to react in advance of where comm lag would strictly let them (for example Duke Norris can react instantly)

One could envisage a much stricter play model that used double-blind mechanisms, two or maybe three complete gameboards and sets of counters and a referee to hew more closely to the "communication at the speed of travel" restrictions of the OTU and deny the players intel. I don't have the luxury of any of those things, and I suspect most people who might even vaguely consider playing FFW don't either.

Instead I'm just trying out this activation mechanic as a solo option, in the full knowledge it isn't perfect.

I'd of course welcome suggestions of a better mechanic.
Yeah, Battleship-style gaming is only fun at small scale. Best way to do the wargame is to do the semi-random die roll for each encounter to see how the commander on the scene would react (for both sides).

But it's a game, so if you aren't having fun then what's the point?
 
FFW as written doesn't fully model comm lag and lack of intel anyway
I agree, the god's eye view that the players have would be absent from the participants.
- firstly, both players have full view of the board and can see where enemy fleets are at all times (which is wholly unrealistic if we're being pedantic);
Yup, I have often pondered secret movement and an information wave front for each fleet move, but it gets really complicated.
- secondly, a significant number of admirals in the countermix are allowed to react in advance of where comm lag would strictly let them (for example Duke Norris can react instantly)
I don't mind individual admirals being able to react to a changing situation faster, bu they should not be aware of anything beyond the information wavefront their scouts and couriers can bring them.
One could envisage a much stricter play model that used double-blind mechanisms, two or maybe three complete gameboards and sets of counters and a referee to hew more closely to the "communication at the speed of travel" restrictions of the OTU and deny the players intel. I don't have the luxury of any of those things, and I suspect most people who might even vaguely consider playing FFW don't either.
It cries out for a computer game...
Instead I'm just trying out this activation mechanic as a solo option, in the full knowledge it isn't perfect.
I am looking forward to seeing how it plays out. Please keep us updated.
I'd of course welcome suggestions of a better mechanic.
Moving blank counters is the only one I can think of, while ther are other fog of war mechnisms there are none that I know of that simulate a commlag that varies between a week and several months.
 
I've already (re)learned a few things - like don't attack Louzy with a substandard Zhodani fleet.

The Louzy SDB force chewed up a whole Zhodani colonial fleet and spat it out. Had to divert a second fleet from its mission to rescue the survivors and finally squash those pesky SDBs. Then had to battle 20,000 battalions of the Louzy ground forces! And all for 8 measly VPs!
 
Not sure how Louzy would have 11 million soldiers (avg of 550 troops per BN) at a high enough TL to defeat Zho mainline troops who were invading.

I sometimes wonder if these numbers are evaluated against reasonableness.
 
Louzy doesn't have to do it all on itself. You can expect that strategically important border systems get extra Imperial presence. FFW doesn't get into exactly what the planetary defenses are - some of it would be orbital, some of it would be troops on the ground. Numbers also matter... 10s of billions are always going to be a difficult job for an invasion to deal with unless they're prepared to just nuke from orbit.
 
Not sure how Louzy would have 11 million soldiers (avg of 550 troops per BN) at a high enough TL to defeat Zho mainline troops who were invading.

I sometimes wonder if these numbers are evaluated against reasonableness.
Sorry if I wasn't clear - it was the SDBs that caused most of the trouble, not the ground forces. "SDB"s in FFW represent monitors, actual SDBs and anti-aerospace ground defences.
Louzy, with a population in the tens of billions, has a lot of them in the game. Billions of taxpayers I guess means you can afford a fair bit.
 
Sorry if I wasn't clear - it was the SDBs that caused most of the trouble, not the ground forces. "SDB"s in FFW represent monitors, actual SDBs and anti-aerospace ground defences.
Louzy, with a population in the tens of billions, has a lot of them in the game. Billions of taxpayers I guess means you can afford a fair bit.
SDB's make more sense. But their presence at Louzy does not. I do not have the current version of the FFW, so can only speak to the older stuff. Louzy is a TL8 world, off the main trade routes and purportedly is a played-out mining world. It's got low hydrographics, low gravity, a tainted atmosphere and a relatively low tech base with a D class port. Pretty much any settlement is going to require it being domed or pressurized. The played-out mineral issue could account for the base that would have allowed it to grow so large and for it to have the initial base to have domed/pressurized settlements. The native TL-8 should be sufficient to maintain such locations, or even repair/build new ones, albeit I would expect in limited quantities.

The SDBs would have to be imported as it's not possible for them to build on their own. The original FFW materials have the system with 500 SDB's, which seems rather high. Granted it's a single J-3 away from Zho space, and a possible invasion route into the marches. With 500 SDB's to maintain I would expect it to have at least a small naval base. Deploying ships as the primary support structure is possible, though it doesn't seem plausible for the long term. Efate, next door, certainly could be the building point for SDB's, and with proper fleet structure, could rotate units back for maintenance. But it would be cheaper and more effective to have them maintained at Louzy.

FFW materials (the original ones) talk about the siege of Efate by the Zho during the FFW. The Louzy system doesn't have a gas giant, so the SDB's stooging around the outer system is rather pointless. They'd need to be protecting the planet and it's surface water as the primary refueling location(s). That makes their effectiveness much less since a 400ton SDB isn't a match for say a 50,000 Dton cruiser. In swarms it can be deadly, but w/o the ability to strike in a gas giant their effectiveness against warships should be limited like most small ships.

The data just seems to be the normal Traveller mish-mash of things that leaves you scratching your head.
 
SDB's make more sense. But their presence at Louzy does not. I do not have the current version of the FFW, so can only speak to the older stuff. Louzy is a TL8 world, off the main trade routes and purportedly is a played-out mining world. It's got low hydrographics, low gravity, a tainted atmosphere and a relatively low tech base with a D class port. Pretty much any settlement is going to require it being domed or pressurized. The played-out mineral issue could account for the base that would have allowed it to grow so large and for it to have the initial base to have domed/pressurized settlements. The native TL-8 should be sufficient to maintain such locations, or even repair/build new ones, albeit I would expect in limited quantities.
The planet is TL-8, the Starport should be TL-12. Plenty high enough to maintain SDBs. The problem is the Class D part. No good repairs there.
 
The planet is TL-8, the Starport should be TL-12. Plenty high enough to maintain SDBs. The problem is the Class D part. No good repairs there.
It's a D class port... why is the expectation it should be TL12? Is there some additional info I'm missing?

This is where the system should have some sort of naval base or at least SDB-support ships similar to real-world submarine and destroyer tenders and other depot that get forward deployed for support. Or like how the USN deployed drydocks to a few places like Ulithi for field repairs and servicing of ships. 500 SDB's is a LOT of ships to support. I'd think that they would have probably been supported via a ground naval installation since there is no indication there is any orbital infrastructure at Louzy (especially with a D class port).

Personally I think this is another knock against random system generation. With so many planets its not practical to try and fit them all together in a planned expansion - the challenge when you provide details at lower levels. This is where you'd want to update the Library data when adding in supplements (much easier electronically than dead-tree versions).
 
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