Fate points and "left for dead"
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Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
urdinaran said:
Which one? The Grey Lotus One?
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
The trap malfunctions- or the PCs have a chance to slide beneath the glass panel before they fully close.
Sutek
Mongoose
But you, Raven, are saying you wouldn't allow the expenditure of a FP to avoid that trap? I'm not following you. See, way I see it, the expenditure of the FP results in something going hay-wire (malfunction or near avoidanc).
You just don't like the safety valve?
Plus, can't the FP be spent to boost say...the check to locate the trap or to diable it? I can't remember...
You just don't like the safety valve?
Plus, can't the FP be spent to boost say...the check to locate the trap or to diable it? I can't remember...
Sutek
Mongoose
Well, al; the WEG force points did was double you dice pool, so if you started with 3d6 you double to 6d6. That doesnt' translate to either the d20 system not to the effect that they were trying to achieve mechanically.
I think fate points are great; powerful but few and far between. Remember, players only get a handful or less every adventure, not every gaming session. If you're characters set out to rescue a princess, you don't get new fate points until you accomplish that task. That could take many, many sessions - weeks of game play.
I think fate points are great; powerful but few and far between. Remember, players only get a handful or less every adventure, not every gaming session. If you're characters set out to rescue a princess, you don't get new fate points until you accomplish that task. That could take many, many sessions - weeks of game play.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Sutek said:
No- I wouldn't allow it- I was just giving urdinaran ideas about how the create a dues ex machina involving Fate points for his/her campaign. Note that I have never demanded that other people play their games like me. Whatever works for you is whatever works.
Show me the safety valve in this world and I'll show you the one in mine. One thing I despise about typical fantasy fiction is that there are 'chosen ones' special above all other people and thus must always get away in the end. Bulls***. Life is tough and if you don't learn how to be smart you learn how push up daisies. And sometimes beign smart isn't enough- bad luck can be lethal and deaths can be pointless. Take my laast game. A pair of Thieves in the group was dispatched to scout out the enemy defenses and report, but one got badly hurt and the other decided to try and assassinate the enemy leader alone. He died on the his and his bodyguard's blades. The rest of the group attempted a calvary charge on Riding Horses with some NPC troops and ended up taking more injuries from the horses spooking than from enemy fire. The only thing that saved their bacon was that the Nordenhiemer Barbarian/Soldier managed to eliminate most of the enemy troops himself and the rest of the group managed to run to ground an enemy Bandit sniping from the rough before she did too much damage. An experienced NPC Soldier is planning on taking them aside next session and explaining basic tactics......
We learn from mistakes. If the PCs used Fate Poitns to skate through this, what would they be learning? People with Fate Poitns are special? Next time around if they don't learn and f*** up again I will hammer them into the ground. I consider a valauable RL lesson as well- too many people out there with a false sense of indestructablity and an attitude to match.
Don't know. My point is though that if they aren't already looking for the traps before they enter the room their next character will likely do so. 8)
The trap in "Rogues in the House" is like this:
By pulling a tassled cord, 2 clear and indestructible panels quickly slide down and seal off a small corridor; another tug (or whatever) causes grey lotus pollen (?) to fall from the ceiling; whoever is in the trap goes mad and begins a killing frenzy, themselves included.
In the story, Conan saw how the trap functioned and was well aware of its effects, so detecting it or disarming it was not an issue.
My point is that if the PCs find themselves under the effect of said pollen, how can the expenditure of a FP save them? I guess you could go with the blanket "changing the world around you" portion, but to me that's a cop out. Using a FP is not a guaranteed avoidance of death in some instances. Kinda what Raven was getting at: Don't be stupid, and bad things won't happen to you (well, not all the time anyway).
By pulling a tassled cord, 2 clear and indestructible panels quickly slide down and seal off a small corridor; another tug (or whatever) causes grey lotus pollen (?) to fall from the ceiling; whoever is in the trap goes mad and begins a killing frenzy, themselves included.
In the story, Conan saw how the trap functioned and was well aware of its effects, so detecting it or disarming it was not an issue.
My point is that if the PCs find themselves under the effect of said pollen, how can the expenditure of a FP save them? I guess you could go with the blanket "changing the world around you" portion, but to me that's a cop out. Using a FP is not a guaranteed avoidance of death in some instances. Kinda what Raven was getting at: Don't be stupid, and bad things won't happen to you (well, not all the time anyway).
Sutek
Mongoose
Well, it can't help you from that. FPs can only save you if you take ability damage that would cause you to be dead (CON 0), like from poisons. Now, you could use a FP to enact the "alter the universe" option and cause there to maybe not be so much in there or that you were able to catch a breath just before the pollen was relased so at least there's a few rounds...something like that.
Useing a FP to be Left For Dead is a means of avoiding death in all instances...well...just about. You can't use them to avoid everything, but my main point is that if you're using them to inflict Mighty Blows then you ought to use them in all capacities.
There are only 4 uses for FPs:
1) Left for Dead
2) Mighty Blow
3) to remove Corruption
4) Destiny (altering the game world)
It's not a glorified Dodge or anything...
Useing a FP to be Left For Dead is a means of avoiding death in all instances...well...just about. You can't use them to avoid everything, but my main point is that if you're using them to inflict Mighty Blows then you ought to use them in all capacities.
There are only 4 uses for FPs:
1) Left for Dead
2) Mighty Blow
3) to remove Corruption
4) Destiny (altering the game world)
It's not a glorified Dodge or anything...
Sutek
Mongoose
Raven Blackwell said:
Well, this is pretend, Raven. (lol) I've been driving down the road late and night, swerved to hit an animal or road hazard or something and, by all rights, I should have crashed. However, I didnt'and not because of my great and powerful Drive (Taurus) skill. (hehe) No, instead I got lucky.
Fate.
Who said that FPs need be spent to make good things happen anyway? Surely you belive in Fate? Well, fate can be fickle, but if it makes the story good...well...maybe a good PC will notice an opportunity. I've done it before, ending up with scarred or mutilate characters in the process because it makes things more interesting.
Raven Blackwell said:
Jeeze...there's 3 friggin points to use for something like 5 character levels. An adventure ought to last many multiple sessions and huge personal goal ought not be achieved all that often.
I presume by your logic above that you only allow PCs with abillity ranges of 12 and lower, because higher than that and they are "special". 17 STR is super heroic. That's special Being able to use Magic...special.
I understand where you'r ecoming from, but FPs are a means of the players having a safety valve to avoid dying from stupid reasons...like spooked horses or being injursed on the way to the adventure. I'd never put my PCs through hardship and near death unless is was necessary for the story, and that's whay FPs lend to - th eplayers aiding in making a dramatic story.
Raven Blackwell said:
That's so fatalist and anti-climactic. There's no role playing involved; just a lot of walking around hoping the GM won;t kill me and constant rolling up of new characters.
The number of FP is very limited and so are the uses of them. I truly don't see what the issue is, using them to add an aire of cinematic drama to the game rather than bleak, negativistic "realism".
But to each thier own... :?
I'm with Sutek on this one. Yes Fate Points do make the characters "special" and that to me is a part of the feeling of the game. In the stories Conan is able to survive what a lesser man can't, he picks himself up after being crushed, beaten, crucified or having gone through yet another near death experience. Conan is "special", I want the PCs in my Conan game to be "special".
Even the core D20 system encourages that sort of style with it's ever increasing hit-point pool and automatic increases to defence and attacks. The Conan game then seems to build on that some more.
I do play and run other darker more realistic games. Games where the characters aren't special, they're not gifted with physical abilities way above the norm and where they don't have a "safety valve" with a pool of "Fate Points". There's a place for Dark Fantasy games where one false move will lead to an adventurer being killed as perhaps it would in the "real" world.
However to me that's not what Conan is about. "Real" it's not, "special" it is and "RL lessons" are few but that's the mood of the books and that's the mood the game guns for. It just wouldn't be Conan if he'd have run out of fate points and died crucified to that tree.
Conan probably defined "typical fantasy fiction", why not play some other grittier system (BRP is a pretty good one) set in a Hyborian like world if that's not what you're after?
Even the core D20 system encourages that sort of style with it's ever increasing hit-point pool and automatic increases to defence and attacks. The Conan game then seems to build on that some more.
I do play and run other darker more realistic games. Games where the characters aren't special, they're not gifted with physical abilities way above the norm and where they don't have a "safety valve" with a pool of "Fate Points". There's a place for Dark Fantasy games where one false move will lead to an adventurer being killed as perhaps it would in the "real" world.
However to me that's not what Conan is about. "Real" it's not, "special" it is and "RL lessons" are few but that's the mood of the books and that's the mood the game guns for. It just wouldn't be Conan if he'd have run out of fate points and died crucified to that tree.
Conan probably defined "typical fantasy fiction", why not play some other grittier system (BRP is a pretty good one) set in a Hyborian like world if that's not what you're after?
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
My players have no complaints about the way I run it. I throw in RL problems like supply, morale, weather, supply and demand, racial and religious intolerance, etc. because it makes it feel more real and thus gives it a greater depth. Also stories are driven by dramatic tension and Fear is a good one and Fear of dying even better. FP remove that Fear and make the game little more than a video game with a set number of lives.
Besides I do believe in Fate. I believe that a player will lose PCs until they find the one that's meant for them to play. When they do, they tend to last no matter what I throw at them. That's Fate Herself in action- and I don't pretend I can do a better job than the Weaver. 8)
Besides I do believe in Fate. I believe that a player will lose PCs until they find the one that's meant for them to play. When they do, they tend to last no matter what I throw at them. That's Fate Herself in action- and I don't pretend I can do a better job than the Weaver. 8)
As I've said before fear of death isn't all that a player fears, they should fear what you are going to do to their character. Death is the end of a characters story line, "left for dead" keeps it running with hopefully a very nasty and awkward twist in it.
A character drops to -10HP in an ambush that the PCs are loosing, if he's dead then that's one outcome. However if he's "left for dead" then there's a nasty problem for the PCs. Do they try and carry him away as they flee? If he's left behind then he becomes a prisoner that they will presumably try and rescue. In the mean time he'll be tortured and give away his secrets. What about his equipment? If he's carried it'll have to be left because of the weight, if he's captured or just left behind on the field then all his beloved equipment will be taken.
FP can make the game a bit like a video game if you're unimaginative. However with some thought they're invaluable, there's nastier things you can do to a PC other than kill them.
Yes fear of dying is one source of dramatic tension, however we know that Conan in the books is never going to die yet I'm sure we all agree they're dramatic. "Left for dead" isn't a miracle, it's a means of making the groups lives even more complicated than they already were.
A character drops to -10HP in an ambush that the PCs are loosing, if he's dead then that's one outcome. However if he's "left for dead" then there's a nasty problem for the PCs. Do they try and carry him away as they flee? If he's left behind then he becomes a prisoner that they will presumably try and rescue. In the mean time he'll be tortured and give away his secrets. What about his equipment? If he's carried it'll have to be left because of the weight, if he's captured or just left behind on the field then all his beloved equipment will be taken.
FP can make the game a bit like a video game if you're unimaginative. However with some thought they're invaluable, there's nastier things you can do to a PC other than kill them.
Yes fear of dying is one source of dramatic tension, however we know that Conan in the books is never going to die yet I'm sure we all agree they're dramatic. "Left for dead" isn't a miracle, it's a means of making the groups lives even more complicated than they already were.
The game is about epic stories.
Having a player lose his character just due to an old drunk city guard getting lucky roll is not epic.
And most players should feel some conection to their characters, else this would be a videogame. As such, most will hate having their character which has such a cool background killed in a pathetic manner.
However, I have thought about it, and I think Raven has a point. Players must be on their toes and not say "I have 3 FPs, nothing bad can happen". But as Oly said, there are fates worse than death. I can assure you players can find being imprisoned at the mercy of their foes far worse than being dead.
Having a player lose his character just due to an old drunk city guard getting lucky roll is not epic.
And most players should feel some conection to their characters, else this would be a videogame. As such, most will hate having their character which has such a cool background killed in a pathetic manner.
However, I have thought about it, and I think Raven has a point. Players must be on their toes and not say "I have 3 FPs, nothing bad can happen". But as Oly said, there are fates worse than death. I can assure you players can find being imprisoned at the mercy of their foes far worse than being dead.
Sutek
Mongoose
Fear is a WIll save, Raven. I think that's all we're saying. Obviously you can run your games how you like if your players are having fun, but FP aren't a "Get out of jail free" card by any means.
In fact, I could see you having a lot more fun with pesky players trying to cash them in.
Say I'm going to use a FP to avoid dying and end up LFD. You say "Fine, Sutek, but you know what? The reason you've survived being nailed to the tree is because you have been saved by a dark god for his own sinister purposes. You need to make a corruption check and he'll probably make his purposes known to you sooner or later..."
The ramification of spending a FP can be more fearsome than simply dying. Death is sometimes the easy way out...
:twisted:
In fact, I could see you having a lot more fun with pesky players trying to cash them in.
Say I'm going to use a FP to avoid dying and end up LFD. You say "Fine, Sutek, but you know what? The reason you've survived being nailed to the tree is because you have been saved by a dark god for his own sinister purposes. You need to make a corruption check and he'll probably make his purposes known to you sooner or later..."
The ramification of spending a FP can be more fearsome than simply dying. Death is sometimes the easy way out...
:twisted:
Don't forget, Left for Dead doesn't mean "Get Out of Dead Free", you still have to make a save an hour later, and if you fail that saving throw, then you're totally and irrevocably dead, no matter how many FP you had still in your possession.
I too think Raven has a good point, but I do agree with Sutek. By the way, I have no idea how many FP my group's players have, because I think maybe one player used 1 FP once? I've even mentioned to them the alternate uses of it when they were stumped and had no ideas what to do next (referring to altering the universe in some minor way), but they usually don't bite. And then I stall until they obviously will never figure out what's what and then I'll introduce another clue to try to reel them back in.
IF fate points were used like they are in the DnD Eberron setting, then I could easily see Raven's point. As it is, I have no problem with either side of the debate, it's just a matter of opinion. 8)
I too think Raven has a good point, but I do agree with Sutek. By the way, I have no idea how many FP my group's players have, because I think maybe one player used 1 FP once? I've even mentioned to them the alternate uses of it when they were stumped and had no ideas what to do next (referring to altering the universe in some minor way), but they usually don't bite. And then I stall until they obviously will never figure out what's what and then I'll introduce another clue to try to reel them back in.
IF fate points were used like they are in the DnD Eberron setting, then I could easily see Raven's point. As it is, I have no problem with either side of the debate, it's just a matter of opinion. 8)
Sutek
Mongoose
The only thing I dislike about FPs is that the GM get's no of his own - he has to use complete GM fiat to intervene, but it's unlimited whereas the players have a known, finite pool. Just doesn't seem on the same "scale" to me.
I like the Action Dice like in Stargate. Levels 1-5, players get three d4s that can be used to increase rolls after the fact. Whole dice are cashed in to "activate" threats to upgrade them to criticals. Every time the spend one, it's gone for good, but the GM can award new dice on the fly and there's no upward limit a player can attain.
The flip side is that the GM has Action Dice too, but they are always d12and he has 3+1 per player. Every time he awards a new dice to a player, he gets another d12 too.
Similar, but random boost.
I like the Action Dice like in Stargate. Levels 1-5, players get three d4s that can be used to increase rolls after the fact. Whole dice are cashed in to "activate" threats to upgrade them to criticals. Every time the spend one, it's gone for good, but the GM can award new dice on the fly and there's no upward limit a player can attain.
The flip side is that the GM has Action Dice too, but they are always d12and he has 3+1 per player. Every time he awards a new dice to a player, he gets another d12 too.
Similar, but random boost.
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