Farewell!

[KJohnston]

A mongoose representitive is trying to corrupt me! Think of the children!

Seriously though, could you define how it's lacking a little more? I'm curious. Although after 45 minutes don't reply. Just be with your loved ones, pray, and ignore those air raid sirens. :twisted: Oh and blame yourself because you gave me the idea! :lol:

 

[DigitalMage]

I am playing Savage Worlds with Deadlands and also think it could be used for Conan well. At £5.99 for the rules you can't go wrong!

As for Conan specific stuff have a look at this (direct link to PDF):
Savage Sword of Conan

 

[Azgulor]

The problem with the D20 system is far from being limited to the Conan forums. In my shop there are also heated debates between D20 lovers/haters. In thirty years of gaming (and twenty working in the gaming industry) I have never seen that. It's also the same on many RPG forums.
Even Wizards of the Coast choose to drop the system after less than 8 years of use. The old D&D system held for more than twenty years, even though it has erratic mechanics. Many of the systems created then are still around.
D20 is gonna die slowly. It won't be missed...

Many of those old systems whose longevity you're praising have been relegated to niche games for years as well. I'm not saying that they aren't good games or that they don't have their fans but their niche existence has no bearing on d20's success or longevity.

WotC came out with a new system to boost sales of core books and to morph the game such that new "core" books can be released in almost a subscription-like way. It has nothing to do with D20s popularity (or your perceived lack thereof).

If anything, your argument would point to d20/3.5 surviving amongst the gaming community for a long time to come. If smaller games can survive 20+ years, I'd bet a system that helped revitalize RPGs, the D&D brand, and help create/support a variety of 3rd-party publishers (like the one whose board your posting on...) has some legs to it.

 

[Thorvang]

Just to post my opinion, I really do like how d20 works for Conan and how the publishers altered some of the core rules mechanics to fit the game. I've played quite a few d20 games over the past decade, and I must say that Conan is my fave! D20 isn't a bad system in itself but it definitely works better with some games than others, and I think it is very complementary for Conan-- mainly due to all the combat that players are sure to engage in!! :twisted: I have a great love for the older systems, no doubt ( I still play 1E AD&D and Gamma World), but the Conan RPG is where I see d20 looking its best!
Oh, and I also see no problem with using fluff from one system to support another...that's just creative and innovative on the part of GM's who want to support their own favored system and style of play. I think Mongoose will survive despite those accursed free-thinkers! :lol:

 

[Supplement Four]

Just to post my opinion, I really do like how d20 works for Conan and how the publishers altered some of the core rules mechanics to fit the game.

What I like about Mongoose's choices with d20 and Conan is that the "level" system is almost eliminated.

A character level is almost like a rating for a low skill in something (or a group of skills). d20 Conan, to me, plays more like a skill based game rather than a level based game.

And, with the six second combat round combined with Feats, Special Attacks, and Combat Maneuvers, much of the abstractness of combat disappears. Combat in Conan is more like a blow-by-blow simulation game.

Conan is definitely an excellent version of what can be done with the d20 system (and that's coming from someone who hates d20 so much that he's avoided the game for the last 20 years).

I am truly impressed with d20 Conan.

 

[rabindranath72]

What I like about Mongoose's choices with d20 and Conan is that the "level" system is almost eliminated.

A character level is almost like a rating for a low skill in something (or a group of skills). d20 Conan, to me, plays more like a skill based game rather than a level based game.

And, with the six second combat round combined with Feats, Special Attacks, and Combat Maneuvers, much of the abstractness of combat disappears. Combat in Conan is more like a blow-by-blow simulation game.

Conan is definitely an excellent version of what can be done with the d20 system (and that's coming from someone who hates d20 so much that he's avoided the game for the last 20 years).

I am truly impressed with d20 Conan.

The level system is eliminated?! 90% (or more) of d20 Conan is D&D3.x, from the feats to the skills to the classes. Apart from some side details (e.g. removing Vancian magic, and making armor absorb points; all things which are described in one form or another also in d20 Unearthed Arcana as campaign options) d20 Conan works like D&D. I did not like d20 D&D, and d20 Conan is still too close to d20 D&D for me to like it. Try comparing the rules with the SRD, and you will see what I mean. In fact, the first printing of the Conan rules, lifted pieces of the SRD without even editing them to remove details which only applied to D&D!
How have you avoided d20 D&D for the latest 20 years if it has been scarcely on the market for 8 years, 5 years if we consider the version from which d20 Conan is derived (3.5, much worse than the original 3.0 if you ask me)?
A question: have you actually ever played D&D 3.x to say that it is so abysmally different and worse than d20 Conan?
It is one thing to say that Mongoose did a good job in adapting Conan to D&D, another to say that they are different games.

 

[Supplement Four]

The level system is eliminated?!

Yessir.

"pretty much" eliminated.

What I mean by that can be explained in two ways.

1 - Levels in Conan represent the character's actual experience in a certain profession. Somebody who is new to a profession is level 1, while someone who is experienced is level 4 (as described in the front of the rule book).

In old D&D (AD&D too), levels did not actually adhere that closely to actual experience. The level system wasn't static, as it is in Conan. The old D&D level system was dynamic.

So, in a 1-3 level dungeon, back in the D&D days, a city guard may be first level, while the watch captain may be 3rd.

Same world. Same charcters. Higher level scenario, at 4-6. The guards may be 4th level (as high as the watch captian in the lower level adventure!) and the watch captain may be 6th.

Levels were scaled.

In Conan, they're static. To be a certain level actually means something--it's not variable.



2 - Multi-Classing and Skills actually work more like a skill-based game rather than a level-based game.

In the old D&D days, a thief would get X-amount of increases to his pick locks and find traps each level, and the thief was the only class that could do such a thing.

Multi-classing was highly restricted (and penalized).

Conan removes the penalty from multi-classing, making it easy, nay, encouraged.

And skills work almost the way they do in a level-less game where most professions can pick training in all areas (no longer is the thief the only lock picker, the ranger the only tracker, the cleric the only healer).


So, yes, I stick by my assessment that d20 Conan has taken large steps to remove the negatives of level/class limitations from characters, allowing people to be individuals.

A multi-classed character in d20 Conan really isn't so different from a strictly skill-based character from D6 Star Wars.

How have you avoided d20 D&D for the latest 20 years if it has been scarcely on the market for 8 years, 5 years if we consider the version from which d20 Conan is derived (3.5, much worse than the original 3.0 if you ask me)?

The last time I played a d20 game was 1989. That's 19 years.

 

[Ichabod]

I think I get what S4 is saying about levels not being quite the same as levels in, say, old D&D. Yes, the character only changes through levels, but it's more like each level is an ability package as if you could almost spend experience on what you wanted rather than be (completely) locked in to a particular progression. Certainly a different feel. The differences in the magic system may have something to do with the difference in feel as well.

On a separate note, to me, d20 refers to the engine that was created with D&D 3.0. Prior versions of (A)D&D, IMO, should not be referred to as d20 since they lacked the skill systems that drive most of the resolution in d20 games - D&D not being the only d20 game. There are numerous individual similarities between (A)D&D prior to 3.0 and 3.X, but they function very differently and shouldn't be confused as one system.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think I get what S4 is saying about levels not being quite the same as levels in, say, old D&D.

To use a comparison to further explain my point:

A stormtrooper from D6 Star Wars has a certain amount of skills, and those skills are set at a certain general level.

So, a regular stormtrooper met on one planet would be about the same as another stormtrooper met when your ship was boarded.

Old D&D did not represent characters like that. You couldn't "count" on a certain type of character to be respresented the same way from adventure to adventure because the adventures were scaled.

A city wall guard in one adventure might be 1st level, where as if you played a high level adventure, the same city wall guard might be 8th level.

Conan changes all that (as described in the front of the rule book). If you see a seasoned soldier who's been on the battefield several times, then he's probably around 4th level. This doesn't change if you're playing a higher level scenario.

An 8th level character is a skilled individual, probably famed across the land.

Characters higher than 12th level are extremely rare and are probably legendary figures!!

So, if you're playing a 12th level adventure, you can count on the wall guards being about the same level that they were when you were 1st level.

Actual levels refer to a state of experience. The levels are static. They're not dynamic and change as your character gains levels.

Therefore, levels, in the traditional dynamic sense, have been eliminated. If Star Wars were to use the d20 Conan rules, then a stormtrooper would have a set of skills, a set of feats, and be a certain level no matter the level of the playercharacters.

On a separate note, to me, d20 refers to the engine that was created with D&D 3.0.

I can see where you're coming from with that, but, to me, the d20 based games in D&D, AD&D, and AD&D 2E were enough like 3.0+ to be considered d20 games.

Skills were used in AD&D 2E (and prior), but they were called "non-combat proficiencies" instead of skills. They operated about the same, with a d20 roll. Feats were included too, except they weren't called "feats". They were called "special class abilities" and usually detailed under the class section.

 

[rabindranath72]

S4 perhaps you could play D&D 3.x before making meaningful comparisons.
Go check how the skills work (capped by level+3) and you see how levels not only matter, but they work the same as in D&D 3.x. This affects the probability of succeeding at something, AND THEY ARE EQUAL TO D&D.
What are you referring to is something which does not depend on game mechanics, but on the interpretation of the game world. Remove spellcasting classes and races from D&D 3.x, and you get something which can be used for Hyborian Age games (I did exactly this when 3.0 was printed.)
Also, you compare the dynamics of AD&D and d20, which are completely different. D&D 3.x is closer to Rolemaster than (A)D&D. Skills is AD&D where only loosely based on level.
Finally, d20 has a specific meaning, also formally (there exists a "brand name") and lumping any edition of D&D under the name d20 is simply wrong.

 

[Malcadon]

Old D&D did not represent characters like that. You couldn't "count" on a certain type of character to be respresented the same way from adventure to adventure because the adventures were scaled.

A city wall guard in one adventure might be 1st level, where as if you played a high level adventure, the same city wall guard might be 8th level.

Conan changes all that (as described in the front of the rule book). If you see a seasoned soldier who's been on the battefield several times, then he's probably around 4th level. This doesn't change if you're playing a higher level scenario.

An 8th level character is a skilled individual, probably famed across the land.

Characters higher than 12th level are extremely rare and are probably legendary figures!!

So, if you're playing a 12th level adventure, you can count on the wall guards being about the same level that they were when you were 1st level.

I dont think OD&D was ever scaled like that!

In OD&D, a [guard, soldiers, mooks, whatever] had no level. They counted as "1 man" in the Chainmail rules (or "0-level man" in AD&D), and was cannon-fodder for parties at any level. It was rare to have Mooks with levels, and an 8th level NPC fighting-man (or Superhero, as titles where more commonly used) thats watching the walls would likely be the lord of the castle. In high-level adventures, the mooks are all the same as the ones in low-level adventures, but there are just a lot more of them! This was the same with AD&D. How the Conan game differs from the older D&D games, is that mooks have levels (form 1-3) that make them as strong as PCs.

In truth, the level-system was based on how special characters fight in the Chainmail rules. Heroes (& Anti-Heroes) fight like 4 men in combat, and became the 4th level Fighter in D&D. That is, a Hero can attack 4 men at one time, and can take hits that can kill 4 men. Superheroes were 8 men strong, and they became the 8th level Fighter in D&D. The booklet also noted that Conan was the template for the Superhero class. It was the first D&D booklets that added the other "levels" between such heroic plateaus.

The only time I had ever seen adventures scaled where "the wall guards being about the same level as the party" was for the 3rd edition of D&D.

 

[Supplement Four]

Finally, d20 has a specific meaning, also formally (there exists a "brand name") and lumping any edition of D&D under the name d20 is simply wrong.

We'll have to disagree on that.

 

[Supplement Four]

I dont think OD&D was ever scaled like that!

The section you quoted was me describing Conan's scaling, not OD&D.

In OD&D, a [guard, soldiers, mooks, whatever] had no level. They counted as "1 man" in the Chainmail rules (or "0-level man" in AD&D), and was cannon-fodder for parties at any level.

I've got several AD&D and D&D modules in front of me that say differently. The guards are scaled to the module. Low level modules have low level guards. Higher level scenarios have higher level guards.

Either I'm not making myself clear, people are just skimming what I write and misinterpreting what I say, or you don't know D&D very well. Something here is amiss.

 

[Hervé]

No Conan party should be hindered by an handful of city guard. Conan wouldn't.

 

[rabindranath72]

Finally, d20 has a specific meaning, also formally (there exists a "brand name") and lumping any edition of D&D under the name d20 is simply wrong.

We'll have to disagree on that.

We will definitely have to disagree.
d20 has a specific meaning: all mechanics are resolved by a d20 roll.
Any other version of D&D is quite far from that. But if you have not played any version of D&D 3.x you have no way of knowing it.
I suggest you not suggesting that classification on any "old school" board to avoid inflammatory comments by people who do not agree with you (I suspect there are precious few who lump all versions of D&D under the same umbrella; unless they are just D&D haters who in any case may lack a fundamental appreciation of the differences between all the versions).

 

[Supplement Four]

No Conan party should be hindered by an handful of city guard. Conan wouldn't.

There are other types of stories to tell in the Hyborian Age. Following might Conan, who is incredibly strong and destined to be a king, is definitely interesting.

It's also interesting to follow a young, weak, street scamp who has to kill rats in order to eat.

There's room for all types of stories in Conan's universe. And, all can be very fun to play.

I just started my campaign. None of the three PCs come anywhere close to Conan, even at 1st level. And, we had a great time (judging by people wondering when we're playing next).

But, we're talling a different story in the same universe. We're not doing Conan's story...we're doing our story.