Extra PL - level name ideas?

[admiral_tee]

Hi guys,
New player (about 2 months) of VaS.
I agree that there needs to be another PL to differentiate some classes.
Currently there are:
Patrol
Skirmish
Raid
Battle
War

People have been talking about adding another PL above War. Only problem is that there arent many descriptive words 'worse' than War besides 'Apocalypse' or 'Armageddon' - which dont sound that credible when playing a WW2 game (i suppose those terms could fit better for sci-fi).

There are two terms that i have come up with that i am fond of. Neither of them are 'above' War, and should probably be slotted between either Raid and Battle, or Battle and War.
They are:
Conflict or Escalation.
I say 'or' as i think the PL system only needs an extra 1 PL, not 2.

So, it would look like so:
Patrol
Skirmish
Raid
**insert here**(Conflict/Escalation)
Battle
**or here** (Conflict/Escalation)
War

How to easily change the current lists.
Well, perhaps most BB's could come 'down' a PL. Maybe some of the CV's too, tho until aircraft get their deserved 'buff' they are probably OK where they are atm.

The mostly vacated War PL would now be the domain of the 'best' vessels on the oceans. Vessels such as the Montana, Sovietski Soyez, Yamato, Lion, H39+, and the late war/projected fleet CV's.

Thoughts, Opinions?
Am I going crazy?

Tee out.

 

[Poi]

I'd challenge brigading the Sovietski Soyuz with the Iowa.

Tried a short experiment last night, Iowa +3 destroyers vs Sovietski Soyuz +3 destroyers.

The destroyers spend all game laying smoke, which the Iowa's Radar ignores. Iowa pummels Sovietski Soyuz whilst remaining untargetable. Yamato's added size gives it some defence, but Radar + smoke = world of pain.

 

[admiral_tee]

I'd challenge brigading the Sovietski Soyuz with the Iowa.

Tried a short experiment last night, Iowa +3 destroyers vs Sovietski Soyuz +3 destroyers.

The destroyers spend all game laying smoke, which the Iowa's Radar ignores. Iowa pummels Sovietski Soyuz whilst remaining untargetable. Yamato's added size gives it some defence, but Radar + smoke = world of pain.

True.
Which further highlights that further classification is needed.
In the Iowa's case, why would you ever need to choose a NoCar or SoDak?
Also, i have also experienced the benefits of the Radar trait and found it to be very powerful.
Perhaps a ship with the Radar trait needs to be considered better in its 'PL' - so maybe the Iowa (in the above idea) needs to remain at War, and the Montana take up 2 war slots (like the h44 etc does) and the SoDak and NoCar move 'down' to the next PL.

I believe it wouldn't do any harm to introduce another PL as well as introduce a '2 point' mechanic.

Hmm...

Tee out.

 

[Oly]

If a new level were needed it seems sensible to me to add it above war level. That way ships that do seem to be far more powerful than other war level ones can be bumped up to it.

As for a name, how's about Götterdämmerung? Bit of a mouthful but I think it captures it

 

[admiral_tee]

If a new level were needed it seems sensible to me to add it above war level. That way ships that do seem to be far more powerful than other war level ones can be bumped up to it.

As for a name, how's about Götterdämmerung? Bit of a mouthful but I think it captures it

It really doesnt matter where the level is implemented, it doesnt have to be 'higher' that War.
In fact, as i said earlier, there isnt much 'worse' than War, whilst terms such as Escalation and/or Conflict can still be slotted amongst the current PL terminology.
And Götterdämmerung is a valid description, but too wordy and doesnt portray enough 'oomph' to the masses.
Who wants to add this in and make War the higher PL level, insert Conflict/Escalation possibly beneath that (Conflict sounds better after Battle but before War, sounds more long term, describing a bigger military action that a single Battle, imo) and see what happens?
I would, but i'm at work atm and dont have all my stuff with me.

Tee out.

 

[Captain_Nemo]

How about one between Skirmish and Raid called Sortie?

You could fit some of the weird fleet support ships in there like the Brooklyn which is currently at Raid level.

 

[Oly]

It really doesnt matter where the level is implemented, it doesnt have to be 'higher' that War.

Maybe it's the programmer in me but I like the idea of meddling with the existing structure as little as possible and extending either end of it.

For example at the moment a each ship can be thought of as being twice as good as a ship on the level beneath it. Well roughly anyway.

If we insert a new level between say Raid and Battle then to keep the same difference between the ships that are in raid and battle now all the battle ships should be dropped down to the new level. Some might be moved back up but on the whole they should be dropped down to keep that one level of difference.

Then you would need to do the same for War too as most of the ships within in should be one level about what used to be the Raid level ships.

That just seems like a lot of changes to go through, all those articles to be checked.

Easier to stick the new level at the top and only move the ships that people feel don't belong in their current level thus keeping the relationships between all the other ships the same.

In fact, as i said earlier, there isnt much 'worse' than War, whilst terms such as Escalation and/or Conflict can still be slotted amongst the current PL terminology.
And Götterdämmerung is a valid description, but too wordy and doesnt portray enough 'oomph' to the masses.

Götterdämmerung's got "oomph" for me but I do agree it's a bit wordy, nicely doom laden though.

How's about something as simple as "World War", it's the obvious escalation of a "War". We've seen many wars, but thankfully only two World Wars.

You could also argue for "Great War" as an historical term too.

 

[Jellicoe]

Between Battle and War - Campaign and then adjust accordingly.

 

[BuShips]

Between Battle and War - Campaign and then adjust accordingly.

I'm not sure that it would ever happen, but if it did I like "Campaign" fine. A name that I had come up with was "Theater", but the British of us would be changing the letters around some, I'm sure. :wink:

 

[juggler69uk]

Has anyone thought about how the "points" allocation might work with one or two extra levels ?

or are we going to have similar gaps in the level distribtion if they "double up" each time and end up with 1 war + level = 64 patrol ???

 

[BuShips]

Has anyone thought about how the "points" allocation might work with one or two extra levels ?

or are we going to have similar gaps in the level distribtion if they "double up" each time and end up with 1 war + level = 64 patrol ???

Well, that's probably the best argument for leaving the system alone. Just by adding even one level you alter the game, and in fixing it you might break it again. :roll: Another possible idea would be to leave the PL levels alone, and just have a few ships have an "*" next to it. This would mean that at a certain mix, an additional small ship could be given to the other side, or an initiative roll bonus maybe even as an effort at balance.

 

[Keith]

There is a level above war in ACTA, its called Armageddon.

The only practical way of dealing with the intermediate levels I can see is to adopt a straight points sytem 1 point patrol ... 4 Skirmish, 8 raid. etc. Poninteing intermediate levels would be easy e.g. 6 points for a level between skirmish and raid.

 

[juggler69uk]

Another possible idea would be to leave the PL levels alone, and just have a few ships have an "*" next to it. This would mean that at a certain mix, an additional small ship could be given to the other side.

Good Idea maybe something like :
If a ship with a "*" is chosen the opponent gets one extra point worth of ships from the level below.
e.g. one War* ship chosen means opponent get an extra 1 battle point worth of ships to pick

 

[BuShips]

Another possible idea would be to leave the PL levels alone, and just have a few ships have an "*" next to it. This would mean that at a certain mix, an additional small ship could be given to the other side.

Good Idea maybe something like :
If a ship with a "*" is chosen the opponent gets one extra point worth of ships from the level below.
e.g. one War* ship chosen means opponent get an extra 1 battle point worth of ships to pick

Yuppers, it would be a similar method to Keith's, just above. His is really something to ponder, as it uses the PL as a guideline, but assigns points. It becomes a blending of the two separate ideas pooling the advantages of both. I'm really liking this the more I think about it. Thanks Keith! You can even break his mid-point of a "6" value into sub-catagories of 5 & 7. So, to build upon the idea, you still use the PL, but more as a general desciption of the scenario's level of action or complexity. PL becomes the level of game points used, and fills up from the individual points of varied ships (thinking as I'm typing, of course). Think of PL as game point threshold, which it has already been.

 

[BuShips]

This is all fun to think about, of course. We have to keep in mind that a lot of effort has gone into figuring out how to build the structure of the game as written (trying out house rules of course sometimes :wink, and how the parts of it all interact. For now I'll just go with any errata that is released and play the game. Maybe after I get a bunch of games completed I'll give this additional thought. Lots of possibilities, to be sure.

 

[admiral_tee]

Another possible idea would be to leave the PL levels alone, and just have a few ships have an "*" next to it. This would mean that at a certain mix, an additional small ship could be given to the other side.

Good Idea maybe something like :
If a ship with a "*" is chosen the opponent gets one extra point worth of ships from the level below.
e.g. one War* ship chosen means opponent get an extra 1 battle point worth of ships to pick

Hmm, this idea could be better (damn, i hate it when mine arent :wink: :lol: ).
So the Iowa and Yamato could be * whilst the H44 and Monty (for eg) could be **.

Hmm....

Tee out.

 

[BuShips]

Another possible idea would be to leave the PL levels alone, and just have a few ships have an "*" next to it. This would mean that at a certain mix, an additional small ship could be given to the other side.

Good Idea maybe something like :
If a ship with a "*" is chosen the opponent gets one extra point worth of ships from the level below.
e.g. one War* ship chosen means opponent get an extra 1 battle point worth of ships to pick

Hmm, this idea could be better (damn, i hate it when mine arent :wink: :lol: ).
So the Iowa and Yamato could be * whilst the H44 and Monty (for eg) could be **.

Hmm....

Tee out.

We can call it the "Whiner's bonus". :lol: :twisted:

 

[DM]

I used avery similar system for rating age-of-sail ships withing rates in the later editions of "Form Line of Battle" and it works well. "Third rate" covers anything from a 64 to an 84, so I set the "standard" as a 74 gun ship, 70s as "3rd rate minus" and 80s and 84 as "3rd rate plus".