EWF Pyramid scheme and enlightenemnt

[Exubae]

After a bit of delerious thought not sure how well the EWF pyramid scheme would work. It seemed doomed to fail before it started.

After reading the second Lunar book from Issaries (cool stuff), in particular illumination and enightenment;
This is a poor attempt to explain my perceptions of why the EWF is falling apart...
The EWF is based on multiple Mystic Paths all of which are grounded on purification and disentanglement from the gross material. These Mystic paths seem designed (from a world perspective) not to give members cool powers but to achieve oneness with Cosmic Dragon, in fact by using the powers you can stunt our spiritual growth (In particlar Dragonewts shy away from magic for this particular reason).
The EWF combine their mystic paths with their project to awaken a New dragon, to do this they need more converts, hence the inforcement of the pyramid scheme, this is where things breakdown for the EWF. They start attracting folk of the wrong mind set, i.e. those who like the flashy powers, the sharp armour, etc, these folk are more interested in the material self than the dragonself.
Instead of getting a country full of enlightned individuals (from a dragon perspective) you end up with a mass of ocluded individuals.

If this is the case, then its pretty understandable to see why the Dragons wiped out the EWF, as the human worshipers become more and more obussive of the dragon powers.

But I'm probably wrong...

 

[Rurik]

Wait, you mean this great dragon thing isn't going to work?

I think you are pretty well onto the right idea. No one will ever know exactly why dragonkind turned on the EWF (excepting dragons and their kin, and I don't expect them to be revealing any of their secrets to humans about why they turned on them) - but I have always believed that the empire led to a corrupted or flawed state of draconic conciousness.

Then again, perhaps they just became too good at the whole dragon mysticism thing, potentially were going to become more powerful than the dragons themselves. Can't have that happen, can we?

 

[Loz]

Wait, you mean this great dragon thing isn't going to work?

I think you are pretty well onto the right idea. No one will ever know exactly why dragonkind turned on the EWF (excepting dragons and their kin, and I don't expect them to be revealing any of their secrets to humans about why they turned on them) - but I have always believed that the empire led to a corrupted or flawed state of draconic conciousness.

Then again, perhaps they just became too good at the whole dragon mysticism thing, potentially were going to become more powerful than the dragons themselves. Can't have that happen, can we?

From reading 'King of Sartar' it was the Dragonwets that did the betraying, and the dragons the slaying. And because Dragonewts simply work on a level that's unfathomable to humans (even those speaking Auld Wyrmish), it might've been a simple whim, an extended plan, or just plain badness.

Whilst I like the idea of dragons feeling threatened by what EWF became capable of, I also quite like the idea of just rounding everybody up so that the dragons could have a good feed. Why bother going for out for a gourmet meal when you can have it delivered?

 

[homerjsinnott]

Wait, you mean this great dragon thing isn't going to work?

I think you are pretty well onto the right idea. No one will ever know exactly why dragonkind turned on the EWF (excepting dragons and their kin, and I don't expect them to be revealing any of their secrets to humans about why they turned on them) - but I have always believed that the empire led to a corrupted or flawed state of draconic conciousness.

Then again, perhaps they just became too good at the whole dragon mysticism thing, potentially were going to become more powerful than the dragons themselves. Can't have that happen, can we?

From reading 'King of Sartar' it was the Dragonwets that did the betraying, and the dragons the slaying. And because Dragonewts simply work on a level that's unfathomable to humans (even those speaking Auld Wyrmish), it might've been a simple whim, an extended plan, or just plain badness.

Whilst I like the idea of dragons feeling threatened by what EWF became capable of, I also quite like the idea of just rounding everybody up so that the dragons could have a good feed. Why bother going for out for a gourmet meal when you can have it delivered?

Your idea seems a bit Trollish rather than Newtish if you ask me.

From what I know it seems very unlikely that the Dragonnewts had lunch in mind when they were so eager to speak to the humans who contacted them. Also the Dragonewts lost a lot in the Dragon kill war as well, cities were destroyed, many many eggs were lost, as were thousands of dragonnewts, all this for a food?

The Dragonnewts did betray the EMF by withdrawing from the cosmic dragon project, but they were initially attacked by the EMF, the Dragon kill came out of that.

 

[Loz]

Trolls were involved - according to KoS p102, but the plan was Draconic. Certainly the Dragonwets were attacked - the Invincible Golden Horde did the attacking - but the Dragonewts weren't innocent victims in the bust-up. There seems to have been design and motive behind it. And KoS says... 'Most people... feel it was a long-term trick which the dragons played on humans in order to get them together in one place to be a great draconic meal'.

Sure Dragonewts lost eggs. But given their somewhat bizarre nature and psychology they probably wrote it off as collateral damage and a price worth paying for ridding Dragon Pass of humans. The inheritors were the Elder Races - Dragonwets, Trolls, Elves, Beast Men... their position became secure for a LONG time.

Whatever the reason (and arguing it here is pretty pointless, because I guess further RQ supplements will flesh things out), the idea of the dragons getting hungry and wanting a slap-up roast human supper, is quite appealing.

I'm sure the trolls used the bones for stock.

 

[richaje]

Trolls were involved - according to KoS p102, but the plan was Draconic. Certainly the Dragonwets were attacked - the Invincible Golden Horde did the attacking - but the Dragonewts weren't innocent victims in the bust-up. There seems to have been design and motive behind it. And KoS says... 'Most people... feel it was a long-term trick which the dragons played on humans in order to get them together in one place to be a great draconic meal'.

Especially since the Dragons ate their human allies as well. Many Orlanthi tribes opposed the IGH - especially the tribes in Dragon Pass (then again, many Orlanthi tribes supported the IGH). The Dragons ate them anyways.

Jeff

 

[EricJ]

The real check on the dragon mystics is this, as far as I can tell:

• Every ten spells a mystic successfully casts, he loses 1% of his abilities, which could take two weeks of effort to relearn.
• Every hundred spells a mystic casts, he loses a characteristic point, which takes much longer to regain.

Okay, mystics could use Hero Points to get rerolls, but that's extremely limited. Somehow, the EWF seems like a house of cards. Of course, it is.

 

[homerjsinnott]

There seems to have been design and motive behind it. And KoS says... 'Most people... feel it was a long-term trick which the dragons played on humans in order to get them together in one place to be a great draconic meal'.

Sure Dragonewts lost eggs. But given their somewhat bizarre nature and psychology they probably wrote it off as collateral damage and a price worth paying for ridding Dragon Pass of humans. The inheritors were the Elder Races - Dragonwets, Trolls, Elves, Beast Men... their position became secure for a LONG time.

The idea of the dragons getting hungry and wanting a slap-up roast human supper, is quite appealing.

I'm sure the trolls used the bones for stock.

You seem to have misunderstood what I was trying to say, as does richaje.
What I am trying to say is that you seem to be attributing very Trollish motives to Dragonnewts. Just cause the local populace thought the meal idea was true doesn't mean it was. KoS is just one version of what happened and one point of view.
Dragonnewts,Trolls and Elves et were the inheritors in an ad hoc way, but we all know how well they get on.

 

[Loz]

You seem to have misunderstood what I was trying to say, as does richaje.
What I am trying to say is that you seem to be attributing very Trollish motives to Dragonnewts. Just cause the local populace thought the meal idea was true doesn't mean it was. KoS is just one version of what happened and one point of view.
Dragonnewts,Trolls and Elves et were the inheritors in an ad hoc way, but we all know how well they get on.

And you seem to have misunderstood both my points, Homer. I wasn't saying it WAS true, or the only version. I was simply saying that I, personally, liked the idea, based on what I'd read in KoS. Whether it seems Trollish or not (and I don't think Trolls have the monopoly on wanting to eat things) is irrelevant. Neither am I attributing Trollish attributes to Dragonewts. What I said is that they had motive and method in their actions, which ended with dragons doing the slaughtering in the Dragonkill. One interpretation of that being that the dragons used the opportunity to eat everyone - as proposed in KoS.

I was simply stating that I liked the KoS interpretation: not that that established it as what actually happened. I also quite like the Grassy Knoll theory of JFK's assassination, but that doesn't mean Lee Harvey Oswald didn't do it.

 

[homerjsinnott]

And you seem to have misunderstood both my points, Homer. I wasn't saying it WAS true, or the only version. I was simply saying that I, personally, liked the idea, based on what I'd read in KoS. Whether it seems Trollish or not (and I don't think Trolls have the monopoly on wanting to eat things) is irrelevant. Neither am I attributing Trollish attributes to Dragonewts. What I said is that they had motive and method in their actions, which ended with dragons doing the slaughtering in the Dragonkill. One intepretaton of that being that the dragons used the opportunity to eat everyone - as proposed in KoS.

I wanted to distinguish between between eating and hunger.
You did attribute a very trollish view to the episode (as does KoS), that of planing it primarily for the culinary aspect "the idea of the dragons getting hungry and wanting a slap-up roast human supper" to quote you. Would humans, elves or even broos do this? The Lunars didn't invade Sartar so they could eat the inhabitants.

The dragons did eat many of the people but it seems to me (and I don't say this of anyone else) that it was a byproduct. Although having said that there were many Dream Dragons there, who are prone to eat people, but they don't seem the sort to plan this.

I feel that it is a shame that they have been attributed this trollish motive (in KoS et al) when they are almost always written in other instances to be unknowable creatures.

I am not saying that you or I see ether view as being gospel, but I wash that Glorantha writers (I'm looking at you Greg) could get over this obsession with all things trollish.

 

[Loz]

Oh well, if you think eating, being hungry, and perhaps even scheming to trap a meal are exclusively trollish traits, I'm not going to argue the point any further.

I wash that Glorantha writers (I'm looking at you Greg) could get over this obsession with all things trollish.

You'd better change your signature then, Homer, lest you get accused of having the same troll obsession as all the other Gloranthan writers. :wink:

I also think that Greg's a bit more than just a 'Gloranthan writer' too. He DID invent the place...

 

[homerjsinnott]

Oh well, if you think eating, being hungry, and perhaps even scheming to trap a meal are exclusively trollish traits, I'm not going to argue the point any further.

That's not what I meant and I feel it is a bit dismissive of you to suggest that. But it could be seen as the trollish bit in all of us (the id). It also suggests that the dragonnewts have a huge amount of power that they have never exhibited before and did so just for a (big) meal.
I just find the idea that the Newts got it wrong more interesting.

I wish that Glorantha writers (I'm looking at you Greg) could get over this obsession with all things trollish.


I also think that Greg's a bit more than just a 'Gloranthan writer' too. He DID invent the place...[/quote]

I agree, others are guilty too, but he is still a Glorantha writer.

 

[richaje]

I wish that Glorantha writers (I'm looking at you Greg) could get over this obsession with all things trollish.

First off, Greg is a lot more than a Glorantha writer - Glorantha is a byproduct of Greg's writings and not the other way around. Like calling Michael Moorcock an Elric writer or Larry Niven a Known Space writer.

Second, Greg isn't particularly troll focused (unless he is writing a troll story). That was and is Sandy.

Jeff

 

[Loz]

That's not what I meant and I feel it is a bit dismissive of you to suggest that. But it could be seen as the trollish bit in all of us (the id). It also suggests that the dragonnewts have a huge amount of power that they have never exhibited before and did so just for a (big) meal.
I just find the idea that the Newts got it wrong more interesting.

I'm sorry you thought I was being dismissive; I didn't intend to be. But I certainly feel frustrated that you keep saying I'm attributing trollish attributes to dragons and dragonewts. I wasn't. KoS doesn't, either. I also think you've read into my original, somewhat light-hearted and throwaway post, a great deal that genuinely isn't there, and reached some very tenuous conclusions. The way you've worded your previous statements implies that ONLY trolls would scheme to round-up humans and eat them.

Just because dragons (and let's be clear that I'm talking dragons, not dragonewts - you seem to get the two mixed up) are otherwordly with unfathomable motives does not mean that they wouldn't stoop to scoffing a puny little foe that's gathered in one place if it was the most expedient thing to do. That doesn't make them trollish or acting like trolls. It makes them a terrifying killing machine without pity for humans.

I quite agree with Jeff, too. Glorantha isn't particularly troll-biased and neither are its writers. If it seems that way, it's because the trolls got the first look-in with Trollpak. I'm actually really pleased to learn that there are Aldryami and Dragonewt books in the pipeline because both are races that deserve fleshing-out in the way trolls have been over the years.

 

[homerjsinnott]

I wish that Glorantha writers (I'm looking at you Greg) could get over this obsession with all things trollish.

First off, Greg is a lot more than a Glorantha writer - Glorantha is a byproduct of Greg's writings and not the other way around. Like calling Michael Moorcock an Elric writer or Larry Niven a Known Space writer.

Second, Greg isn't particularly troll focused (unless he is writing a troll story). That was and is Sandy.

Jeff

I'm sorry if I said something bad about Greg :shock: , I understand that, that is blasphemy to many Gloranthphiles [slightly tongue in cheek smiley]. I assumed that Greg had quite a lot of imput into Trollpak et al, but I am willing to admit that I was wrong.

However, I suggest you read my posts again and try to find the bit where you think I said that was all he is. If you find it and can post it here, I will eat my copy of KoDP. I think you will find the word 'just' missing. And I made no comment as to how much or little he had contributed, nor to the quality.

I really wish I had added to the comment about Greg at the top of this page.

 

[homerjsinnott]

That's not what I meant and I feel it is a bit dismissive of you to suggest that. But it could be seen as the trollish bit in all of us (the id). It also suggests that the dragonnewts have a huge amount of power that they have never exhibited before and did so just for a (big) meal.
I just find the idea that the Newts got it wrong more interesting.

I'm sorry you thought I was being dismissive; I didn't intend to be. But I certainly feel frustrated that you keep saying I'm attributing trollish attributes to dragons and dragonewts. I wasn't. KoS doesn't, either. I also think you've read into my original, somewhat light-hearted and throwaway post, a great deal that genuinely isn't there, and reached some very tenuous conclusions. The way you've worded your previous statements implies that ONLY trolls would scheme to round-up humans and eat them.

A Troll ish thing. Not, ONLY troll. For me Trollish = a bit like a troll, acting from the id, and/or working at the basic level of Maslows hierachy of needs esp hunger. Sorry, I should have made that clear from the begining.

Just because dragons (and let's be clear that I'm talking dragons, not dragonewts - you seem to get the two mixed up) are otherwordly with unfathomable motives does not mean that they wouldn't stoop to scoffing a puny little foe that's gathered in one place if it was the most expedient thing to do. That doesn't make them trollish or acting like trolls. It makes them a terrifying killing machine without pity for humans.

No, I give in, you are right. Its the only motive that fits and therefore the best one. One thing though, when I said Newts I meant Newts. They called the dragons who responded. When I talked of Dragons I meant Dragons. And I never said that other races would not work to trap their food.

I am honestly sorry I draged you into a debate you didn't want to have.

I quite agree with Jeff, too. Glorantha isn't particularly troll-biased and neither are its writers. If it seems that way, it's because the trolls got the first look-in with Trollpak.

Publications dealing exclusively with Trolls 5

Publications dealing exclusively with Elves 0

Publications dealing exclusively with Dwarfs 0

Publications dealing exclusively with Dragonnewts 0

?

Granted that a lot of it was reprited, but the total number of publications was small. But we did get one that dealt with all of them

I'm actually really pleased to learn that there are Aldryami and Dragonewt books in the pipeline because both are races that deserve fleshing-out in the way trolls have been over the years.

So am I.

Thanks for your imput.

 

[Loz]

I am honestly sorry I draged you into a debate you didn't want to have.

That's okay!



Loz

 

[soltakss]

Publications dealing exclusively with Trolls 5

Publications dealing exclusively with Elves 0

Publications dealing exclusively with Dwarfs 0

Publications dealing exclusively with Dragonnewts 0

Wyrms Footprints 14 dealt mostly with Dragonewts, although not exclusively.

In Glorantha, Trolls have been very active. Elves in particular and Aldryami in general, have been very passive. A lot of the Monomyth dealt with trollish/darkness deities who invaded the surface word and conquered it, so trolls are very important to the history of Glorantha.

What did the Aldryami do? They covered the world with forests several times. Zorak Zoran ate all the plants once. They formed an empire in Pamaltela that ended with the other empires in the Second Age. They helped the Earth Deities and did a few things in the Godtime and they took part in I Fought, We Won. They also helped both Arkat and Nysalor, sitting squarely on the fence and killed a few Heroes. Not a lot, really.

Of course, with any new Aldryami sourcebook, we will see that they were far more important and did a lot of things that we didn't know about. But, compared to the trolls, they are an inspid bunch, really.

Mostali are just a bunch of 1970s British Shop Stewards and Unions, with the Foremen telling other dwarves how much work to do. Everybody Out!

 

[homerjsinnott]

In Glorantha, Trolls have been very active. Elves in particular and Aldryami in general, have been very passive. A lot of the Monomyth dealt with trollish/darkness deities who invaded the surface word and conquered it, so trolls are very important to the history of Glorantha.

What did the Aldryami do? They covered the world with forests several times. Zorak Zoran ate all the plants once. They formed an empire in Pamaltela that ended with the other empires in the Second Age. They helped the Earth Deities and did a few things in the Godtime and they took part in I Fought, We Won. They also helped both Arkat and Nysalor, sitting squarely on the fence and killed a few Heroes. Not a lot, really.
Of course, with any new Aldryami sourcebook, we will see that they were far more important and did a lot of things that we didn't know about. But, compared to the trolls, they are an inspid bunch, really.

Ummm... seems like a lot to me, even more than the trolls did. FI the empire in Pamalt seems much bigger than the OOO's in Holy Country.

The two world views we have had most of so far are the Orlanthi and the Trolls, who seem to be frequent allies...

A lot of people seem to have (said they) ruled most of the suface world before time... usually after Yelm.

Sorry I totally forgot about WF, but then again that had Troll stuff too.

 

[Loz]

I think the Second Age is a great opportunity to focus on non-Troll societies (even if there is an MRQ Trollpack coming out), especially Dwarfs, Aldryami and Dragonewts because each is under threat in its own way from either the God Learners or the EWF.

Whilst the Avalon Hill 'Elder Races' boxed set info is good, it doesn't give enough detail to realy make these races live in the same way Trollpack dd for Uz, so I'm looking forward to seeing much more work done for MRQ.