Errata: Tech-World UWP and write up don't match - Aslan and Trojan Reaches both broke
- Thread starter kaladorn
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Pop 2 since it doesn't represent economics.
Pop 3. Only sophants count as population. My Roomba is not a sophont. If it were Conscious, then it would be a sophont. Not sure why people have an issue with that.
If they are stationed there long-term, then they live there, so, yes. It should. If they are just "passing through" like Planet Disney, then no, they would not. Simple and cut and dried. Same as the mechanical dividing line between a sophont and a robot.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
By metagame number, you mean an out of game mechanical number?
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
CT '81. It was certainly the intent in '77 but there are obstacles between me and that hardcopy so I can't verify what was actually written.
Yes. CT has several editions. I happened to grab my 77 edition. It has the text I described. The facsimile is based on a one of the later versions, where they changed the chart a bit.
I am at work, so I can't paste it at the moment.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
So, that hasn't been a rule in over 40 years. Even the original CT got rid of it. That is the hill you want to die on? That I don't understand either.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Yes, a defined number that is fixed for that era.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
When you do, go back a few pages and see if this text is there:
You could charitably say that 'approximately' means 'nearest to', and let Pop 6 mean 500,000 to 5,000,000. But this is probably a low relevance digression.
No, you referred to CT. I looked up in the most convenient copy of the rules, which happend to be the 77 edition. Every printing has little changes like that. The hill I am "Dying" on is that the UPP/UWP was never designed to be rigid the way you want it to be.
As for the robots, I don't think they should count. But other people on this forum certainly do. Had that discussion about 6 months ago.
Not sure what the difference is between Cordan's "only these people count" and Disneyworld's "only these people count".
Look at pg 8. Right after the paragraph on Law Level.
"This procedure for world creation is intended to provide a wide variety of features for worlds to which adventurers will travel. Specific characteristics should be taken as guides arther than strict statistics.
For example, a population digit of 6 indicates a population of 1,000,000; it can be construed to actually cover a range from slightly more than the next lowest level (100,000) to slightly less than the next highest level (10,000,000)."
I don't have my 81 edition at hand to see if that text was removed or not. Not really relevant. Just happened that I used the 77 edition when I looked up an answer about CT.
that's actually how i interpret it for my games
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
It does seem to actually be that rigid. "Almost every" version of the Pop number is rigid. 6 is a number followed by 6 zeros.
If they are not sophonts, they are not population. That is easy. Consciousness is the requirement. I have no idea why they ignore populations of Chirpers and the like, since they are sentient. The only excuse I can come up with is the Scout Service is a bunch of humanists... lol Although that doesn't help as an out of game mechanic.
This one is easy. Tourists at Disney World do not live there, the people of Cordan do. Again. Easy. When the US government does a population census every ten years, do they count tourists as part of the local population? Of course not. Again. Easy.
Anstett
Emperor Mongoose
Minor point. We (the US Government) actually count Residents. Not Citizens.
So that means if you live in Massachusetts but are in California for X number of months to vacation (I forget the actual number of days in the rules) then you do get counted as a resident of CA and not MA.
Leading it back to Traveller the comment earlier about do you count the Naval personal stationed at a Depot even when they are out on maneuvers... yes. The Census would take them into account as residents of the Depot... unless the Referee decides to use the US Census rule about time in a place for residency.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I also said yes for the soldiers, but no for the tourists. Also, I never said citizens. I merely said people who live there long-term.
No. You have seen the quotes from the designers and from the current publisher. The original quote "Specific characteristics should be taken as guides rather than strict statistics" from the guy who you elsewhere said "it is his world, etc". It is phrased a little differently in the reprint, but it is still that the values are approximations and can be flexed as needed. Matt Sprange has said the same thing.
The fact that most of the time the descriptions decided upon will fall neatly into the categories, because the categories are pretty solid. But 6 numbers with 12 point spread is not remotely enough variety to match real life, much less sci fi. So the actual rule as written and as intended is that you can deviate from the the literal definition given.
You are the one who doesn't want to play by the rules. And that's fine. No one expects you to. But pretending your house rules idea of how the game should work is right and everyone else is wrong is not very nice. You could easily say "gosh, 3 of these 750 planets in these two sectors are defined in a way I don't like. I'll change them." And the problem goes away.
Would some game design eden that slots neatly between UWP and WBH be neat? Sure. I'm sure lots of people would like that. Traveller has had 50 years, 10 editions, and 5 or 6 game design companies, not to mention hundreds of intense fans without figuring it out without success, though. And the experience of all that has been that every time you increase complexity, you reduce uptake. So it always ends up with a simple system and a complex system. Classic Traveller had Book 3 (UWP) and Book 6 (early version of WBH). Megatraveller had core rules and WBH. Mongoose has Core rules and WBH. Well, T5 just has complex.
The basic world building rules are a sandbox to build your own sandcastles and landscapes quickly and easily. Book 6, WBH, etc are your hardcore construction sets for those who want more. The fact that GURPS Far Trader tried to build a stone castle on the sand and it doesn't always work is not the fault of the sand, which is doing the sandy things it was designed to do.
Anyway, this is well into repetition with nothing new being said. You can play by the rules, you can make up your own house rules. No one cares either way. It is what everyone does, because no two people want exactly the same thing from the game.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
So, I figured it out. Count all planets as Ht and Hi for figuring out the things available in the trade rules. Get all of the bonuses and cheese the game as much as possible. If the UWP and Trade Codes, are fuzzy enough to mean nothing, then none of the Trade Rules in the CRB work. You can't roll for types of goods and passengers, the amount of goods and passengers, etc. Now, according to what MongooseMatt says, that is how it is supposed to be. None of the Trade Rules are supposed to function as written. I cannot look at the UWPs at a glance and have a general idea of what the planet is like, which is the UWPs original job and now I cannot use the Trade Rules as written, since a Pop 3 doesn't necessarily mean Pop 3. Maybe it means Pop 4, in which case the Lo Trade Code goes away.
CRB pg 242, "Availability is influenced by the size of the market. On Population 3– apply DM–3 to the roll for quantity. This can result in a number of zero or less, reflecting no availability of even common goods. Conversely, Population 9+ worlds have vast economies and grant DM+3 on the roll for lot quantities."
and CRB pg 240,
"The Effect of an Average (8+) Broker or Streetwise check
Rolling for Major Cargo DM-4
Rolling for Incidental Cargo DM+2
For both source and destination worlds, apply these DMs:
World Population 1 or less DM-4
World Population 6–7 DM+2
World Population 8 or more DM+4
Starport A DM+2
Starport B DM+1
Starport E DM-1
Starport X DM-3
Tech Level 6 or less DM-1
Tech Level 9 or more DM+2
Amber Zone DM-2
Red Zone DM-6
Each parsec of destination past the first DM-1"
Can anyone, (almost) please explain how these rules are to be used with the "current" (flawed) understanding of UWP not being a hard rule?
Without having to house rule it, please. MgT2 only
Edit:
If you know the rules, you can decide the future for your character. If you don't, you cannot. If I know the rules, I know that increasing My Broker skill or My INT Score will help Me make more money trading. Those are rules and they are always true, so players can make decisions based on that knowledge. If I do not know that, then My PCs will always be at an unrealistic disadvantage over NPCs who are controlled by a Referee who, "makes it up as he goes along" or a writer who "does whatever he wants, and the rules be damned"
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UWP will be accurate 99% of the time.
The 1% is why we can't call it a hard rule.
The 1% can be for all kinds of legitimate reasons.
Players who are making decisions, because of the 99%, will have enough information to make an informed decision. They should mention their decision to the referee PRIOR to acting on it, because some of those 1% reasons will be something that the referee knows AND the characters should know, and so by mentioning it, the referee will be able to tell the players, and they can refine their decision. Sometimes the 1% is a reason the characters nor the players will know, and will feel like a gotcha moment, but as long as these are used by the referee in moderation, that's part of the game. Sometimes the 1% will be something the game designers or authors will decide - and the referee can absolutely feel free to ignore that (such as changed star generation). If that's something the players know (it says 4 million, but this other thing says pop 2!) then they can ask the referee what their characters know in that TU and the referee can make a call, and let them know (or not, depending on what makes sense for the game).
The 1% is why we can't call it a hard rule.
The 1% can be for all kinds of legitimate reasons.
Players who are making decisions, because of the 99%, will have enough information to make an informed decision. They should mention their decision to the referee PRIOR to acting on it, because some of those 1% reasons will be something that the referee knows AND the characters should know, and so by mentioning it, the referee will be able to tell the players, and they can refine their decision. Sometimes the 1% is a reason the characters nor the players will know, and will feel like a gotcha moment, but as long as these are used by the referee in moderation, that's part of the game. Sometimes the 1% will be something the game designers or authors will decide - and the referee can absolutely feel free to ignore that (such as changed star generation). If that's something the players know (it says 4 million, but this other thing says pop 2!) then they can ask the referee what their characters know in that TU and the referee can make a call, and let them know (or not, depending on what makes sense for the game).
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
This will become more of a problem over time as writers write more material if that new material is not beholden to game rules. Personally, I say, fix the 1% and then, oh look, it's a hard rule. Or alter the meaning of the UWPs so that nothing needs changed and it all fits inside of the rules. Don't keep copying and pasting the same mistakes from previous editions of MgT or the earlier editions just because no one bothered to fix it. That should be what each new edition does. Identify what problems exist and fix them as they can. I thought that was one of the reasons We discuss these things on this forum, to refine ideas and help Mongoose make an even more amazing product.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
It would bring the UWP in line with all of the other stats in the game. Pretty much all of the rest of the stats in the game are 100%, every stat on a character sheet for sure. All a UWP is, is the STR DEX END INT EDU and SOC, but for planets.
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Why is 99% a feature and not a bug? If you want a world to have a different UWP in your world, change it. Why does it need to not be a hard number? What is the benefit in that? You could achieve the same thing by changing it in your game.
To Me saying a fuzzy UWP is a feature and not a bug, sounds a lot like saying, "In this game I want My Gun Combat (slug thrower)/4 to count as a 5. Why would it count as a 5? There are no rules that cover it. Because I feel like it. But every other Gun Combat (slug thrower)/4 counts as 4, not 5. Yep. I just feel like it."
It makes no sense. It is the same as calling an apple an orange. It's not and saying it repeatedly or saying it is a feature and not a bug, does not make it true. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a planet with a Population of 6 can have 8 billion people. It just doesn't.
That is your house rule, one that is shared by tons of people on here, but that is not in the rules in the MgT books. Other Editions may have been different, but check the top of the page, this is a Mongoose forum. Most of Our setting info comes from previous editions, but the rules We are discussing in here are MgT rules, mostly MgT2.
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