Errata: Tech-World UWP and write up don't match - Aslan and Trojan Reaches both broke

[MongooseMatt]

That is not to everyone's taste, but the "numbers are fuzzy" is baked into just about everything.

And this is the real reason behind it, and the same reason why we do not super-detail every world in a sector - we have to give Referees plausible room for their own creations, their own approaches, and own needs of their campaign. You can take a UWP and if a Referee needs to alter a world's population, starport, or anything else, we give enough wiggle room for them to do it without exploding Charted Space. We highlight this, occasionally, by doing the same thing in-universe - having a world where the UWP says one thing but once you get planetside, the Travellers see that the UWP may be technically correct... but does not tell the whole story by any means.

Steel, in the Sword Worlds, springs to mind for this.

 

[Vormaerin]

That goes all the way back to the beginning. Marc Miller's article on Victoria in JTAS 2 describes a world with a "tainted" atmosphere, but filter masks have no use on the world. Above 1000m elevation, the air is safe to breathe straight. And below that, it is poisonous in a way that only independent air supply will protect from.

Similarly, Craw by the Keith Brothers in JTAS 10 has several deviations from a strictly literal reading of the UWP.

 

[MasterGwydion]

And this is the real reason behind it, and the same reason why we do not super-detail every world in a sector - we have to give Referees plausible room for their own creations, their own approaches, and own needs of their campaign. You can take a UWP and if a Referee needs to alter a world's population, starport, or anything else, we give enough wiggle room for them to do it without exploding Charted Space. We highlight this, occasionally, by doing the same thing in-universe - having a world where the UWP says one thing but once you get planetside, the Travellers see that the UWP may be technically correct... but does not tell the whole story by any means.

Steel, in the Sword Worlds, springs to mind for this.

Then you need to not use it for out of game mechanics. You cannot calculate WTN without an accurate, out of game TL. Same with population. UWP is used as a game mechanic as well. It is not only an "in universe" thing. You are the Mongoose Matt. If you do not understand that mechanics need to be "solid" and in game stuff needs to be "fuzzy", then We are people who will never agree. Game rules are like the laws of physics. If you want to change the UWP in your universe, go ahead, the rules are there to permit that, but do not go and gaslight the rest of Us by saying the rules do not say what the rules say they do. A Population UWP Code of 4 should mean a population from 10,000 to 99,999. Period. No wiggle room. If the Referee wants to change the population of the planet, go ahead, change the UWP code to reflect you new reality. Do not penalize the rest of Us who think that "2+2 = 4" and not "2+2= whatever the Referee wants it to mean. That is not good roleplaying or good game design.

No matter how many different ways you guys try and explain it. It comes down to this, the world is fluid and changeable, because you can visualize the world differently within the limits of the UWP system. If you want your planet to have 500,000 people instead of 50,000, change the UWP code. The game rules allow for that, but please do not tell Me that the Population Code of 3 means that 8 Billion ppl live on that world. It doesn't. It means between 1,000 and 9,999 people live on that world. Any other interpretation is just gaslighting. In game world information, can be inaccurate. Out of game information should never be inaccurate. It is that simple. Otherwise, everytime a PC shows up at a new planet and finds that none of the UWP is accurate. Sorry mate! Those are the rules. UWP is fuzzy and actually means nothing.

Is that the "official" word from Mongoose, Matt? That all rules are fuzzy and mean nothing? If so, it sucks to know that Geir wasted his time writing all of those rules for the WBH if none of those rules are actually rules, even the optional ones. Ship sensors no long getting a bonus based on TL? Why? Because TL is part of the UWP and is therefore fluid. So maybe your TL-12 ship, isn't really a TL-12 ship. Maybe it is a TL-37 ship that was just misclassified by the Scout Service. Really? That is why I say that you can not use UWP unless it is first and foremost, an out of game mechanic. TL is used for tons of things. If you have a TL-12 ship, does that mean that only most of it is TL-12? What about sensors? Or any of the million other things that run off TL? Are all TL-12 rifles, TL-12 or are some of them TL-13 or TL-11?

Having a firm UWP does not ruin your gaming experience. If you want the planet to be different from the published UWP in YTU, go ahead and change it, but do not tell the rest of Us that game rules, like the UWP are not meant (within the rules) to convey specific information . As long as this information is used for out of game mechanics, it must be accurate.

For example. If you have a planet code of 7 and only 10% of the population participates in the interstellar economy, you could say that economically, they function as a Population Code of 6, but that still doesn't change the actual Population Code for the planet. This allows for differences in the Actual UWP and the Economic UWP, but if that difference exists, then it should be noted that all UWP are the Economic UWPs and not the Actual UWPs. That would resolve the problem, but it would require Referees to go back and for every system, figure out if those numbers are the same, or if they differ.

The easiest change to make would be this. The UWPs as published are the Economic UWPs, not the actual UWPs. Problem fixed. If done this way, the UWPs do not tell you what is actually there, they merely tell you how the planet functions economically. How does that sound as a fix Matt?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Having a firm UWP does not ruin your gaming experience. If you want the planet to be different from the published UWP in YTU, go ahead and change it, but do not tell the rest of Us that game rules, like the UWP are not meant (within the rules) to convey specific information . As long as this information is used for out of game mechanics, it must be accurate.

For example. If you have a planet code of 7 and only 10% of the population participates in the interstellar economy, you could say that economically, they function as a Population Code of 6, but that still doesn't change the actual Population Code for the planet. This allows for differences in the Actual UWP and the Economic UWP, but if that difference exists, then it should be noted that all UWP are the Economic UWPs and not the Actual UWPs. That would resolve the problem, but it would require Referees to go back and for every system, figure out if those numbers are the same, or if they differ.

The easiest change to make would be this. The UWPs as published are the Economic UWPs, not the actual UWPs. Problem fixed. If done this way, the UWPs do not tell you what is actually there, they merely tell you how the planet functions economically. How does that sound as a fix Matt?

Sounds like a good way to play - but there will always be exceptions because Charted Space is just too big (and even just the last portion of the UWP relates to more than just economies).

For example, you will not have to go far to find a world perhaps described as (say) TL12, but being able to construct small numbers of items in a specific field at TL13 while its shipyards might be lagging behind at TL11. Tech Levels are, after all, a range and not every industry gets bumped up at the same time. So... you get fuzziness.

Things get further muddied when it comes to the presence of ships, weapons and vehicles on a world. Just because a world is TL12, it does not automatically follow that all ships built there are TL12 nor, and this begins to complicate things, all components on a ship built there are at TL12. Ships can be built to a lower TL, higher TL components can be imported, and a TL12 world may not have shipyards that can effectively manufacture certain ships anyway. Fuzziness.

The trick there is not to tie a world's TL into all equipment found on that world (a ship's sensors need not be tied directly into any world's UWP). To use your example, yes, a TL12 world will probably have mostly TL12 rifles in its armed forces - but you may also find older TL11 weapons and imported (or simply advanced) TL13 weapons, and that happens in today's world. Think of the current USAF - the cutting edge is the F-22, but there are plenty of updated F-15s flying to represent the middle ground, and the A-10, despite updates, is very much representative of older technology. You get an effective spread of TLs in just one arm of one country's armed forces, so it is not beyond any realm of imagination to think what will happen with a planet-wide military.

You also run into problems with populations and the definition of an actual citizen (and this seems to happen a lot on corporate-owned worlds). If you have a lot of regular employees (or even visitors, if you think of a tourist world) who only stay for a few months or years but yet outnumber the 'true' citizens of a world, you run into difficulties showing that on a simple UWP, especially if their numbers tend to fluctuate. There are also problems when certain citizens are intentionally marginalised and effectively removed from interaction with the wider world and universe - again, plenty of real world examples there.

At the end of the day, UWPs are a blunt instrument that can spec a great deal very quickly for a world, and that is their function (and goal). However, it would not be wholly wise to lock players, Referees and writers into them in totality. Put another way, a whole planet (or star system) is big enough and major enough that it should be acceptable to write exceptions for them: Yes, this world is listed as X and Y, and that is true from a certain perspective, but Referees should be aware that Z also happens.

Finally, there is also the further issue that things can happen in Charted Space that directly affect a UWP - plague, planetary bombardment, etc. This gives us a choice: either find a way to update every mention of that UWP (impractical), do not have such events (boring), or have an in-universe explanation of how events can outpace stated UWPs (sometimes for decades or centuries, depending on where the world is). As you allude, the likes of Travellermap (representing official IISS surveys) are all well and good, but Travellers are advised to update their local library data regularly.

That is our thinking behind UWPs at this time. More than happy to hear any further thoughts you have and discuss them!

 

[MasterGwydion]

Sounds like a good way to play - but there will always be exceptions because Charted Space is just too big (and even just the last portion of the UWP relates to more than just economies).

For example, you will not have to go far to find a world perhaps described as (say) TL12, but being able to construct small numbers of items in a specific field at TL13 while its shipyards might be lagging behind at TL11. Tech Levels are, after all, a range and not every industry gets bumped up at the same time. So... you get fuzziness.

Things get further muddied when it comes to the presence of ships, weapons and vehicles on a world. Just because a world is TL12, it does not automatically follow that all ships built there are TL12 nor, and this begins to complicate things, all components on a ship built there are at TL12. Ships can be built to a lower TL, higher TL components can be imported, and a TL12 world may not have shipyards that can effectively manufacture certain ships anyway. Fuzziness.

The trick there is not to tie a world's TL into all equipment found on that world (a ship's sensors need not be tied directly into any world's UWP). To use your example, yes, a TL12 world will probably have mostly TL12 rifles in its armed forces - but you may also find older TL11 weapons and imported (or simply advanced) TL13 weapons, and that happens in today's world. Think of the current USAF - the cutting edge is the F-22, but there are plenty of updated F-15s flying to represent the middle ground, and the A-10, despite updates, is very much representative of older technology. You get an effective spread of TLs in just one arm of one country's armed forces, so it is not beyond any realm of imagination to think what will happen with a planet-wide military.

Let Me use your rifle analogy to see if I understand you correctly. Is that rifle a TL-11 rifle or a TL-13 rifle. I can build a TL-11 rifle at TL-11 using TL-11 parts at TL-12 and it is a TL-11 Rifle, or I can build a TL-11 Rifle using TL-12 parts and it is a TL-12 rifle with the stats of a TL-11 Rifle, but the rifle itself is still TL-12 and will require TL-12 facilities to maintain. Under no circumstances will a TL-9 world with a TL-9 Shipyard be building TL-15 ships. Now, you can have a TL-2 world with a TL-15 Shipyard, but all of the parts will have to be imported or built at the starport. This doesn't change the TL of the world. The world's TL is what is generally available. With the rules in HG and in the CSC, We know that building at up to 2 TLs higher is possible, but is not the standard. This is already taken into account in the rules for items. This should not change the TL of the planet. So, again. Why is it fuzzy?

You also run into problems with populations and the definition of an actual citizen (and this seems to happen a lot on corporate-owned worlds). If you have a lot of regular employees (or even visitors, if you think of a tourist world) who only stay for a few months or years but yet outnumber the 'true' citizens of a world, you run into difficulties showing that on a simple UWP, especially if their numbers tend to fluctuate. There are also problems when certain citizens are intentionally marginalised and effectively removed from interaction with the wider world and universe - again, plenty of real world examples there.

I referred to this in My other post on Trade Codes and UWPs. If what you want as a game designer, is for the UWP Codes to refer entirely to a world's economic numbers as opposed to actual physical numbers, that would make sense, but that is not how it is explained currently. Then the world's actual physical numbers could be different, as then the UWP only refers to a world economic information. No changes to published systems needed, just explain, so that everyone understands that these numbers are measurements of economic forces, not a physical descriptions of the world. Then you could have all of the "real-world" deviation that you wanted without issue.

At the end of the day, UWPs are a blunt instrument that can spec a great deal very quickly for a world, and that is their function (and goal). However, it would not be wholly wise to lock players, Referees and writers into them in totality. Put another way, a whole planet (or star system) is big enough and major enough that it should be acceptable to write exceptions for them: Yes, this world is listed as X and Y, and that is true from a certain perspective, but Referees should be aware that Z also happens.

What I just described above, allows for that creativity. It locks writers, Referees, and players the base economics stats, but does nothing to explain why they are the way they are. That is left up to the writers, Referees, and players to decide.

Finally, there is also the further issue that things can happen in Charted Space that directly affect a UWP - plague, planetary bombardment, etc. This gives us a choice: either find a way to update every mention of that UWP (impractical), do not have such events (boring), or have an in-universe explanation of how events can outpace stated UWPs (sometimes for decades or centuries, depending on where the world is). As you allude, the likes of Travellermap (representing official IISS surveys) are all well and good, but Travellers are advised to update their local library data regularly.

That is our thinking behind UWPs at this time. More than happy to hear any further thoughts you have and discuss them!

The problem here is you are thinking of the Travellermap as an evolving thing. It is not. It is a view of the universe at one specific time. Day 1, Year 1105 Imperial. Like a photograph. That is it. Changes may happen after that, that will effect a systems's UWP Code, but that would not be reflected in the Travellermap, nor should it be. It happened after the Travellermap's effective date. I am just saying that, if you use the Travellermap, all it represents is one slice of time. It is not made to show changes that occur in the future. That is why I run all of My games, that use the Travellermap (which is all of them. lol) with a starting date that matches the date on that particular Travellermap. The Travellermap is a static construct from the date of its creation, not a living document that is updated regularly. So if you play in 1049 3I, the Travellermap will not be 100% accurate. A lot can change in 50+ years.

 

[Nelphine]

I think the point is that for some refs, they want UWP to refer to physical population. Some want economic. Some want permanent. Some want imperial subjects. Some want 'human' (whatever that means). All of these are different things.

The UWP is vague because it can be any of these, and in some cases, it may be different even by the same author or game master. No matter which is chosen, it's not going to make sense in some cases, and will be inaccurate (even to the one it's supposed to represent).

And the traveller map, while super awesome, certainly isn't perfect - at least I never refer to it as the Final Source. If I run a game and I have an event that happened 5 years prior, which changes lots of things.. I can still use that map on that date for 'close enough' and for my players to make informed decisions, knowing it might be wrong sometimes.

 

[ottarrus]

Folks, there are LARGE discrepancies between all UWP sources. While some are meta-story related [increase in Pop, change of TL or Gov't Code during the Rebellion, for example] and some are 3rd party sources [using DGP sources, for example], most are just plain errors. Travellermap does its best to correlate all the info, but it's an uphill climb.
What I've decided to do for my campaigns is select ONE source for my UWP info and publish that to the players as the 'official' UWPs, telling them that all other sources are incorrect for this campaign.

 

[AndrewW]

The problem here is you are thinking of the Travellermap as an evolving thing. It is not. It is a view of the universe at one specific time. Day 1, Year 1105 Imperial. Like a photograph. That is it. Changes may happen after that, that will effect a systems's UWP Code, but that would not be reflected in the Travellermap, nor should it be. It happened after the Travellermap's effective date. I am just saying that, if you use the Travellermap, all it represents is one slice of time. It is not made to show changes that occur in the future. That is why I run all of My games, that use the Travellermap (which is all of them. lol) with a starting date that matches the date on that particular Travellermap. The Travellermap is a static construct from the date of its creation, not a living document that is updated regularly. So if you play in 1049 3I, the Travellermap will not be 100% accurate. A lot can change in 50+ years.

Travellermap represents several different time periods. If you pull down the menu (3 vertical lines) and then go to the clock face icon and set the Milieu. Also, the data on their does evolve over time. A lot of times if Mongoose changes the UWP travellermap will also get updated to reflect this for example.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Travellermap represents several different time periods. If you pull down the menu (3 vertical lines) and then go to the clock face icon and set the Milieu. Also, the data on their does evolve over time. A lot of times if Mongoose changes the UWP travellermap will also get updated to reflect this for example.

This is exactly what I said. It is a snap shot in time. You have several options for which time period you choose on the Travellermap, but each one is just a snap shot in time. As it is supposed to be.

 

[Vormaerin]

What I just described above, allows for that creativity. It locks writers, Referees, and players the base economics stats, but does nothing to explain why they are the way they are. That is left up to the writers, Referees, and players to decide.

But it shouldn't lock them into base economic stats unless those stats are so generic as to be meaningless. The only way that possibly makes sense if if you assume physical resources and culture have no impact on economic stats. Or that everyone has the exact same.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Folks, there are LARGE discrepancies between all UWP sources. While some are meta-story related [increase in Pop, change of TL or Gov't Code during the Rebellion, for example] and some are 3rd party sources [using DGP sources, for example], most are just plain errors. Travellermap does its best to correlate all the info, but it's an uphill climb.
What I've decided to do for my campaigns is select ONE source for my UWP info and publish that to the players as the 'official' UWPs, telling them that all other sources are incorrect for this campaign.

I use the 1105 Travellermap for all of My "official" UWPs. Meta-story changes are all well and good as they occur over a period of time, so they can be changed however the writer or Referee wants to change them. What I am saying is that the UWPs as of 1105, or whatever date on the Travellermap that you use, should all be mechanically accurate. If It is one UWP on the Travellermap, and a different UWP on the same date in a book that was published after the Travellermap existed, that is just wrong. That is just poor quality control.

 

[MasterGwydion]

But it shouldn't lock them into base economic stats unless those stats are so generic as to be meaningless. The only way that possibly makes sense if if you assume physical resources and culture have no impact on economic stats. Or that everyone has the exact same.

Then why even have a system? Just go write story with no rules. What are you even talking about? You can't have it both ways. Either the rules are the rules in which case, follow them, or there are no rules and We are just storytelling and not playing a game.

You seem to want things to have stats, but for those stats to be so variable as to be meaningless. I do not even know what the point of that would be.

I want things to have stats that actually mean something and allow for you to create infinite variations of things without changing the base rules. For example. Body Pistol CRB, pg 126. TL-8, Range 5m, Damage 2D, Weight -, Cost 500Cr, Magazine 6, Magazine Cost 10Cr, Traits -. Those are the stats of a body pistol. Now you can write the descriptive text any way you want that doesn't violate these stats. Think about all of the ways you can describe the innumerable different types of small, concealable, small-caliber gun. For all you know it could be twin-barreled but can still only fire one barrel at a time. If it could fire both at once, it would be a different gun, with different stats. It is the same with UWPs and Trade Codes and everything about the combat system. The rules just give you the mechanics, they do not tell you hows or the whys. I shoot you in combat, I roll Gun Combat. I get above an 8. I hit you. Those are the mechanics, but it doesn't tell you the details of what happened. It just gives you the broad strokes, but in enough detail that you can create the how from the outcome. Outcomes are all that are represented in die rolls. Not the hows or the whys, just the outcomes. The hows and whys are left to Referees or writers.

 

[ottarrus]

But sometimes the 1105 data doesn't match other sources for the same era. Sources for 1110, 1030, etc. can be highly variable with each other. This is what I'm trying to explain.
Mongoose contradicts some GDW material and GDW often contradicts itself. Then there's the third party groups [DGP, FASA, etc.].
This is why I suggest picking a source, copying it, and publishing it to your players as The One Correct Source For This Campaign.

 

[MasterGwydion]

But sometimes the 1105 data doesn't match other sources for the same era. Sources for 1110, 1030, etc. can be highly variable with each other. This is what I'm trying to explain.
Mongoose contradicts some GDW material and GDW often contradicts itself. Then there's the third party groups [DGP, FASA, etc.].
This is why I suggest picking a source, copying it, and publishing it to your players as The One Correct Source For This Campaign.

Travellermap needs to pick a source then. Rank the sources from most important to least important. In a case where you have two conflicting sources, use the source deemed more important. No writers should contradict whatever the Travellermap states is the official map, unless MM wants to go and change stuff. It is his world We are playing in anyhow. His world, his rules. lol

 

[Vormaerin]

You are talking about building all this economic data based on UWP. I'm saying that UWP is absolutely useless for that purpose. Not that all mechanics of all types are useless.

Mercury and Ganymede have the same UWP. They are not remotely similar planets physically nor are the colonies on them at all similar. They would not have the same trade behaviors, imho. Callisto, which is a third different type of world, would also have the same UWP if the military outpost were a proper military base.

 

[tytalan]

Drinax still has the ability to maintain TL-14 things, so their TL is definitely 14. They still have the knowledge of TL-15 technologies in their entirety. They just do not have much in the way of manufacturing capacity (probably a few TL-15 fabricators), and they have next to no resources with which to build with. In another 200 years, if they have not fixed that problem, they will likely only be able tot maintain TL 12 or 13. Provide them with resources though, and they are back to TL-15 in less than a year.

Drinax's UWP should be D436455-E. If given the resources, they could be C436455-F within a year. If not, within 200 years, they will likely be D436555-C and now can only work on ships of TL-12 and below.

The description should follow the game mechanic, not the other way around. I understand that UWP is used in game as well by the Scout Service. They need to separate in-game knowledge out from game mechanics. One can be wrong, the other should never be.

Also. Why would any idiot use the Second Survey results which may be decades out of date over using the star charts local in their region? They would actually be way more accurate than out of date Imperial charts? Plus, Aslan, Zhodani, Hivers, etc. None of them use the Second Survey charts. Why would they? The Hivers would automatically assume that any publicly available start chart would be a manipulation.

So if a PC buys a chart of the local subsector, now the Referee has to almost entirely rewrite the subsector UWPs and every published map is now useless. That is a huge waste of time and money for any Referee.

Actually if you read pirates of Drinax no where do they say they can maintain TL 14 in fact there are strong indications they can’t for example much of the Harrier is only TL 14 yet Drinax couldn’t even repair that (the repairs using ship shares represent the PCs resources). Another example is when the hydroponics broke down Drinax had to invade Asim in order to feed its people. It’s even explicitly stated that Rachando control the palace’s economy and makes money by trading Drinax Art for repair parts. The palace has no factories only a few work shops (pg 21 PoD book 2). Saying that Drinax can repair TL 14 is completely counter dictating the whole description in book 2.

Why would local charts be more accurate? You don’t have the imperium updating them they got enough to do with out sending surveys to worlds not members of the imperium? Also PoD book 2 pg 125 “The Imperium has little knowledge of the rest of the sector, especially Aslan-held subsectors and Menorial, Egryn, Yggdrasil and Dpres. Surveys of Menorial were only completed in 1105, and the Scout Service rates all charts of the sector as ‘questionable’. “ Yes you’re likely to get more accurate information locally from local merchants and governments but both will depend much on the important of the world. Drinax for example gets maybe a few merchants a year if that ( same book at the other information). The UWP is a tool its accuracy is up to the GM. there are worlds where the description itself indicates that the UWP is currently inaccurate. You should actually look it up by the way the second survey is the primary source of the UWPs but in the imperium the scout service updates it with information gotten from the Starports(this is why the UWP is more accurate in the boarders of the imperium) but its software and without instant communication the data changes can lag and sometimes the changes get lost.

Infrastructure is a lot more than just resources! It’s the ability to refine and fabricate with those resources. Drinax would take decades possibly a century to restore its infrastructure to support a TL 14 or 15. World Builder Handbook pg 173 “ A world’s Tech Level represents the technology that is commonly available and representative of the world’s infrastructure.” Drinax doesn’t have any infrastructure anymore (This is actually one of the hidden drives for the restoration of the Drinax empire )

The UWP is a Resource for a quick reference but the worlds with actual descriptions (about a third of listed worlds) it’s the description which will tell the current story. Other worlds are completely left to the GM to flush out and how much he wants to use the UWP.

 

[Geir]

Anything in a book with "Pirates" in the name is really more what you would called 'guidelines'

 

[tytalan]

As for the original post the answer is again in the world description PoD book pg 189 “
The human population of Tech-World is around four thousand. The robot population is around a million
and rising, depending on how one tallies distributed- intelligence computer with numerous slave bodies. Experiments in using nanotechnology, cloning and other technologies of questionable legality are ongoing, and Tech-world is attracting increasing numbers of researchers who wish to pursue lines of inquiry not permitted in the imperium”. This is a world that by the description is rapidly growing in population from the influx of researchers to the use of cloning the world is changing fast.

 

[tytalan]

Anything in a book with "Pirates" in the name is really more what you would called 'guidelines'

The whole post is about Pirates since the issue is with the description in pirates book 2. And maybe you didn’t notice but I also quoted the Worlds Builders Handbook for support

Edit: also not to argue but as far as I know Pirates book 2 “The Trojan Reach” is still the official MgT2 source book. Or has there been a new Trojan Reach book release or in the works?

 

[Vormaerin]

This is the information available to an Imperial merchant company (Barracai Technetium) about the Egyrn subsector in the 1107 adventure Leviathan for Classic Traveller: