Errata: Tech-World UWP and write up don't match - Aslan and Trojan Reaches both broke

[kaladorn]

Aslan book says:

Tech-World A455154-F

...

The human population of Tech-world is around four thousand. The robot population is around a million and rising, ...

Okay, I might be crazy, but a UWP population digit of 1 means how many zeroes after the population value of index of 4? Exactly ONE! That does not line up with a population four thousand!

So either we need a UWP population digit of 3 for Tech-World, or all of a sudden the magical robot run spaceport is being managed entirely by a maximum of 40 people, not 4000. Hmmm.... maybe not impossible, but not what the text in Aslan indicates.

So, which is it? I personally imagine the UWP digit should be 3 for Tech-World. 4000 staff does not seem ridiculous for a type A port, whereas 40 might well be a bit ridiculous.

Note: This issue with UWP pop digit exists in Aslan and is repeated in Trojan Reach. It wasn't caught, so it was never fixed. I just caught it because I was fascinated when I saw a port A, high tech, pop 1 planet.... and the description jumped out as not matching a pop 1 planet!

Not sure where or who is keeping/collecting/deciding this sort of errata, but someone ought to be. Somewhere accessible too.

Sincerely,
Tom B

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hey there,

It is not always that easy with UWPs, especially on population, and you will see this pop up every now and again.

The UWP is assumed to be the 'official' record within Charted Space, derived from the IISS and distributed by organisations like TAS. So, it may not always match what is happening on the ground, so to speak.

For example, imagine a bunch (thousands or tens of thousands) of Aslan Ihatei landing on a planet and having stayed there for the past three years. They start building makeshift starports, habitation areas, and so forth - however, no one has checked this planet out for a while (it is a big universe) or they are just assumed to be temporary. So, the UWP of that world does not change.

As a specific example, check out the Steel system in the Spinward Marches. That has an official population of 0 - however, anyone who has played/read Project Steel knows there are quite a few people living there and civilisation is being constructed in a fairly robust way. Officially, however, the Sword Worlds should not be settling there, hence the official Population 0.

Hope that insight helps!

 

[Tay]

It's also slightly different on Traveller Map and the Wiki.

UWP: A 5 5 5 1 5 4 – E

 

[Ursus Maior]

That's how we handled it for ages. Take Drinax as an opposite example: The official 'world' is the palace above Drinax proper. They don't have a working starship yard that can build j-drives, yet the starport is rated A. The TL of E is equally bogus, since the palace probably has no means of producing large amounts of diverse TL E gear. And no-one ever counted the Vespexer population on the planet itself, so the population code of 4 is true only for the palace itself again. Yet, as long as the Imperial consul or the IISS itself take no interest in changing the information, Drinax will remain the same old A43645A-E it has been for decades or centuries.

 

[phavoc]

The argument makes sense, on both sides - which is the problem. A planet with a write-up needs to explain the discrepancy. When taking in reams of UWP data it's best to discard anything that doesn't fit the narrative.

And this is the problem with the massive number of systems randomly generated without any sort of logic applied to it. Using Drinax as an example, it violates the classification rule of an 'A' starport. While that could be remedied by stating "it imports it's J-drives", that, too, then sets up a massive problem because that rule ISN'T part of the stated rule for how a starport gets it's classification.

There are many examples of the rules conflicting with each other. We really don't have "rules", what we have is a GAAP-style set of things - accept or reject whatever you like.

And thus the fires of the canon wars are forever continually flamed.

 

[Geir]

It's just a "guideline" there are other examples in the Drinax Companion, like Acris and Cordan where the official population numbers don't match the narrative.

Look at it this way: you (IISS Survey Office) have this little UWP form and you have put in numbers at the top of the form. There's probably hundreds of pages (millions of bytes?) of text behind it, but the number at the top has to be both descriptive and politically correct, avoiding protests from locals who insist you're misrepresenting their form of government, technological sophistication or whatever. The detail is there - that's either in the adventure or for the referee to create.

Or the data is bad for reasons mentioned. It's a snapshot from 40 years ago that week when the Aslan came through. The Third Survey will fix it in a few hundred years.

Or think of a real world example: What's the population of Antarctica? Officially it's 0, but there are thousands during the summer and hundreds during the winter.

Or do you count workers at a port or in a mine? Do you count military personnel on a base? If you look at shipyard staffing alone, you can't have a Class A starport without at least a thousand workers, but that doesn't mean they're considered citizens. As for Drinax, do you really want to be the guy in the room telling Oleb he doesn't have a Class A port?

Or the OTU is 40+ years old, created by dozens of authors and we should be glad there are people out there doing their best to try to keep it at least partially consistent. Once upon a time I was a history major. I don't expect the sources to be consistent, looking into the contradictions can be either fun or frustrating, but that's a choice you get to make.

 

[Reynard]

"And this is the problem with the massive number of systems randomly generated without any sort of logic applied to it. Using Drinax as an example, it violates the classification rule of an 'A' starport. While that could be remedied by stating "it imports it's J-drives", that, too, then sets up a massive problem because that rule ISN'T part of the stated rule for how a starport gets it's classification."

I was assuming Drinax a long time ago created an A class starport which follows all the parameters in High Guard starport section. Problem is the world of Drinax got blasted and all that was left was a floating palace and a starport rendered near useless without the population or, especially, resources to run it fully. I also assume neither the Imperium or Hierate claimed it so no support. It meets all the criteria but not the ability to function as an A class. Lots of areas with the lights off.

 

[Garran]

Yeah, that's my take on it too. They *have* a class A-worthy starport, if only there was the means to run it like one.

Likewise with the tech. They have the tech-theory and can make things on an artisanal scale if they have the resources... but they usually don't. Not without selling off yet another priceless treasure via Rachando, anyway. Making use of that tech to produce things on a large scale would require an industrial base, which they clearly don't have and can't buy their way into, although PCs might be able to do something about it in the long term since planetary restoration/terraforming operations do exist.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It's just a "guideline" there are other examples in the Drinax Companion, like Acris and Cordan where the official population numbers don't match the narrative.

Look at it this way: you (IISS Survey Office) have this little UWP form and you have put in numbers at the top of the form. There's probably hundreds of pages (millions of bytes?) of text behind it, but the number at the top has to be both descriptive and politically correct, avoiding protests from locals who insist you're misrepresenting their form of government, technological sophistication or whatever. The detail is there - that's either in the adventure or for the referee to create.

Or the data is bad for reasons mentioned. It's a snapshot from 40 years ago that week when the Aslan came through. The Third Survey will fix it in a few hundred years.

Or think of a real world example: What's the population of Antarctica? Officially it's 0, but there are thousands during the summer and hundreds during the winter.

Or do you count workers at a port or in a mine? Do you count military personnel on a base? If you look at shipyard staffing alone, you can't have a Class A starport without at least a thousand workers, but that doesn't mean they're considered citizens. As for Drinax, do you really want to be the guy in the room telling Oleb he doesn't have a Class A port?

Or the OTU is 40+ years old, created by dozens of authors and we should be glad there are people out there doing their best to try to keep it at least partially consistent. Once upon a time I was a history major. I don't expect the sources to be consistent, looking into the contradictions can be either fun or frustrating, but that's a choice you get to make.

I both love and hate that UWP is an in-game piece of information and an OOC game mechanic. What I hate, is when a UWP is inaccurate, because the messes with things on the game mechanics side. I do not care that the TAS or the Scout Service got it wrong. If I am a Referee, I am not in the game universe and therefore not subject to its errors. As a Referee, I need the actual UWPs. Give Me the errors as well, but I need both in order to do My job well and consistently.

 

[Vormaerin]

What makes you think that the UWP value and the fiction not matching messes with the mechanics? Perhaps the situation performs mechanically equivalent to the UWP value, despite the situation on the ground seeming to be something else.

 

[MasterGwydion]

What makes you think that the UWP value and the fiction not matching messes with the mechanics? Perhaps the situation performs mechanically equivalent to the UWP value, despite the situation on the ground seeming to be something else.

Then the UWP values need to be redefined. The Population Code is supposed to represent how many people are on a planet. That is why I said, "Give Me both" The real number and the Error or Equivalent number. Ambiguity is for players, not Referees. If two sources do not match, and neither is stated as being an error or an equivalent, then one of them is wrong. Wrong information is fine for PCs and players, not for Referees.

Cordan is another one. Population Code 3, but that is only for the Baronial Households, not for their subjects who are TL-5, nor for the barbarian tribes that are more numerous than both other groups combined. So what is the "real", out of universe reason for this? It creates conflicting information between players and referees, not in game, but out of game. If they can not trust the mechanics of the game, how are they supposed to decide what they want to do? How can you decide to go for a walk, if you can't trust gravity? How do you eat food if you do not know from one bite to the next if that food will kill you? Game mechanics are like the laws of physics. They tell us how the world functions. If I want to adventure, making allies among the groups of Cordan and establish trade with all of them, should they be Pop 3 or more? Should they still be considered Lo Pop and be a place that I can buy Radioactives? If they are not actually Pop 3 or less, I can not buy Radioactives there. It is a string of problems like this. It is never just Cordan or Exocet or Drinax. It is not being able to trust any of the information that is out there.

 

[Anstett]

It is not being able to trust any of the information that is out there.

It seems Mongoose has been ahead of the dis-information game for a long time.

 

[Vormaerin]

It seems Mongoose has been ahead of the dis-information game for a long time.

It's not Mongoose. It's Traveller. This goes back to the design intent of the original rules, which were to create inspiration for where you, as GM, feel more detail is needed and give a quick reference where you don't think it is needed. It was always intended that deviations from the "hard" definition of the UWP were acceptable.

The very first example of expanded world building (CRAW in an early JTAS 10/11 in 1981) did the same thing. They had the "tainted" be low oxygen, so respirators rather than filter masks were required. And they had an indigenous race that served as coolies for the human population but didn't count in the pop figures.

That is not to everyone's taste, but the "numbers are fuzzy" is baked into just about everything.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It's not Mongoose. It's Traveller. This goes back to the design intent of the original rules, which were to create inspiration for where you, as GM, feel more detail is needed and give a quick reference where you don't think it is needed. It was always intended that deviations from the "hard" definition of the UWP were acceptable.

The very first example of expanded world building (CRAW in an early JTAS 10/11 in 1981) did the same thing. They had the "tainted" be low oxygen, so respirators rather than filter masks were required. And they had an indigenous race that served as coolies for the human population but didn't count in the pop figures.

That is not to everyone's taste, but the "numbers are fuzzy" is baked into just about everything.

Then it needs to be never used for things that require "hard numbers", such as game mechanics.

 

[Vormaerin]

That's certainly an opinion one can have.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If the laws of physics are not constant, they are not the laws of physics. That is not an opinion. As soon as you can disprove it, and others can repeat that same disproval, it is no longer a law. Just like rules in RPGs. If the rule can be disproven, then it is not a rule.

 

[Vormaerin]

The original rules, on which the modern rules are heavily based, were not written to be load bearing foundations for a universal structure of how the universe works. They were designed to be procedures help spark GM creativity and aid in the design of adventures. They mechanically do not work as a stand alone mini game divorced from GM intervention and interpretation. They were never designed to.

As much as you want them to, they will fail you if you try to use them that way. The purpose of the UWP was let you have your 20+ worlds in your subsectore easily listed on a single sheet of paper with mechanics for what happens if the world is just a flyby visit that isn't worth detailing or for which you were not given time to spend your creativity on.

They were not designed to cover every eventuality or to significantly handcuff referees who had a cool idea for what that world was like. The idea was that if your players were coming to a world often enough that they might have permanent contacts and scheduled cargo and all that, then you wouldn't be using random procedures to generate content. Because you and the players would have invested yourself in the specific details of the world and would tweak anything that needed tweaking to suit your personal vision of what Darmot IV is like.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The original rules, on which the modern rules are heavily based, were not written to be load bearing foundations for a universal structure of how the universe works. They were designed to be procedures help spark GM creativity and aid in the design of adventures. They mechanically do not work as a stand alone mini game divorced from GM intervention and interpretation. They were never designed to.

As much as you want them to, they will fail you if you try to use them that way. The purpose of the UWP was let you have your 20+ worlds in your subsectore easily listed on a single sheet of paper with mechanics for what happens if the world is just a flyby visit that isn't worth detailing or for which you were not given time to spend your creativity on.

They were not designed to cover every eventuality or to significantly handcuff referees who had a cool idea for what that world was like. The idea was that if your players were coming to a world often enough that they might have permanent contacts and scheduled cargo and all that, then you wouldn't be using random procedures to generate content. Because you and the players would have invested yourself in the specific details of the world and would tweak anything that needed tweaking to suit your personal vision of what Darmot IV is like.

Tweaking is fine, not being able to have a general idea of what a planet is without having to tweak every part of the game is ridiculous. WHy pay for something if I have to rewrite everything? That seems like I am just paying to do the work myself. I pay people so that I do not hav eto do that bit of work over and over and over again every time a new system is visited. Maybe one of My players read a blurb in one of the books and wants his character to visit that world, only to get there and the player, not the character, feels lied to because the blurb written in the material didn't match the UWP and the Referee created something that did match the UWP, but none of the written material. Why buy the book at all if you cannot trust the information in it? To Me, that is just lazy writing and a failure of editing and proofreading dressed up as, "It was supposed to generate stories for the players." I can generate a nearly unlimited number of adventures and do tons of worldbuilding for My games and never once go outside of the UWP. Never once treat the UWP as hazy. I can worldbuild multiple times for the same world, using the same UWP, and still have vastly different planets. Then I just have to decide which of the many options I created fits best for My players.

I buy new books on the assumption that they are following the rules and creating new ideas to get My creative juices flowing. I love Drinax! I love how it was written, but I have made changes to it to bring it in line with the UWP. The UWP says that there are 70,000 people living on Drinax. Fine. 30,000 crowded into the Floating Palace and the other 40,000 are Vespexers. Problem fixed. Class-A starport? They have one, but it is only 100 tons. The rest was destroyed by the Aslan. They can make jump drives, so the Shipyard costs 0.75MCr/ton, but because it is so small, they can not install them on ships. They could make ships up to 50-tons as well, but they are resource poor, so you will have to bring them the materials to actually do the building. Stuff like that. I made changes so that the story still worked, but does not ever give you a result that is not covered by the world's UWP. I have no idea why that is so hard for other people. This is by far not the first time that I have encountered, "the story is more important than the rules" viewpoint. To Me that has always been a lack of creativity. I can build almost anything and still stay within the rules. I have never understood why others can't.

 

[tytalan]

One of the things I always remind my players as well as keep in mind myself is that the UWP is based on the grand imperial survey (or its equivalent). While the actual universe is more dynamic. Drinax is a great example before the Aslan bombed it there was a class A starport and its TL was 15 now its port is somewhere between a C and a D and the TL is closer to 4 or 5. This is why you need to consider the description as well as the UWP

 

[MasterGwydion]

One of the things I always remind my players as well as keep in mind myself is that the UWP is based on the grand imperial survey (or its equivalent). While the actual universe is more dynamic. Drinax is a great example before the Aslan bombed it there was a class A starport and its TL was 15 now its port is somewhere between a C and a D and the TL is closer to 4 or 5. This is why you need to consider the description as well as the UWP

Drinax still has the ability to maintain TL-14 things, so their TL is definitely 14. They still have the knowledge of TL-15 technologies in their entirety. They just do not have much in the way of manufacturing capacity (probably a few TL-15 fabricators), and they have next to no resources with which to build with. In another 200 years, if they have not fixed that problem, they will likely only be able tot maintain TL 12 or 13. Provide them with resources though, and they are back to TL-15 in less than a year.

Drinax's UWP should be D436455-E. If given the resources, they could be C436455-F within a year. If not, within 200 years, they will likely be D436555-C and now can only work on ships of TL-12 and below.

The description should follow the game mechanic, not the other way around. I understand that UWP is used in game as well by the Scout Service. They need to separate in-game knowledge out from game mechanics. One can be wrong, the other should never be.

Also. Why would any idiot use the Second Survey results which may be decades out of date over using the star charts local in their region? They would actually be way more accurate than out of date Imperial charts? Plus, Aslan, Zhodani, Hivers, etc. None of them use the Second Survey charts. Why would they? The Hivers would automatically assume that any publicly available start chart would be a manipulation.

So if a PC buys a chart of the local subsector, now the Referee has to almost entirely rewrite the subsector UWPs and every published map is now useless. That is a huge waste of time and money for any Referee.