Enhance INT, Enhance POW - warning, contains munchkinnery

[PhilHibbs]

I knew there must have been a good reason that these spells weren't available in AH RQ. It's fairly simple to create a character that can double their INT and POW from, say, 15 each to 30. That adds 30 to all Grimoire skills and to Manipulation. As to whether you can then cast the same spells again taking advantage of the improved duration is potentially questionable, but I wouldn't stop someone replacing their Shapechange spell with no gap between old and new, so why not allow this?

I've just realised it's even more open to abuse than I first thought. You start with 15 in each, and a Grimoire skill of 70 (30 base, +10 from Occupation, +30 Free Points). This lets you get a bonus of 7x2=14 to each, so INT and POW are now 29 each. This boosts your Grimoire skill to 98. Now you can cast them for +20 to each, which takes them to 35, bumping your Grimoire to 110. One more re-cast at +22, and your stats are now 37 each, and this does not take your Grimoire over the next 10% barrier so you're stuck with that. Your spells now can be cast to last for over 7 hours, 6h45m in the case of these two Combined spells.

I think I just won "munchkin of the week" award!

 

[Rungard]

God Learners love powergaming.
That's why I think these spells are included in Mongoose RQ.

 

[Loz]

Except that you can't boost a characteristic beyond twice its original value, so, in your example, INT and POW wouldn't, and couldn't, get beyond 30.

Do I get the Killjoy of the Week award?

 

[PhilHibbs]

God Learners love powergaming.
That's why I think these spells are included in Mongoose RQ.

Although only Hrestol and Xemela have Enhance (POW). Loads of orders get Enhance (INT). Hrestoli get both, so they're the real Gloranthan munchkins.
*Edit*: Wizards of Zistor do get both, I was being overly restrictive in my searching.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Except that you can't boost a characteristic beyond twice its original value, so, in your example, INT and POW wouldn't, and couldn't, get beyond 30.

Do I get the Killjoy of the Week award?

Hm, I read it earlier today but my eyes must have drifted right over that, reinforced also by the NPC in GLS that boosts a stat from 5 up to 25. Still, you can start with 18s and get them up to 36, then cast all 7 Enhance spells (which will last over 3 hours) so all but one of your other stats are all 18 (assuming 80 point method). Collecting a full set is something of a challenge.

 

[Blackyinkin]

Hi,

Ok spoilers ahead.

There is a typo in the GLS in that the Vadeli hasn't used any magic, he really is that high in Charisma as stated in his background, it gets even better when he uses his magic :-D

I wanted the Vadeli to be super charismatic, to completely overthrow their other images. Yes they may eat babies, reproduce by sodomy, and read the Abiding Book backwards to summon demons, but when you meet one face to face they are actually hugely charming and manipulative. Greg told me that they are actually extremelly polite, well mannered and charismatic.

Simon

Simon

 

[gran_orco]

I've just realised it's even more open to abuse than I first thought. You start with 15 in each, and a Grimoire skill of 70 (30 base, +10 from Occupation, +30 Free Points). This lets you get a bonus of 7x2=14 to each, so INT and POW are now 29 each. This boosts your Grimoire skill to 98. Now you can cast them for +20 to each, which takes them to 35, bumping your Grimoire to 110. One more re-cast at +22, and your stats are now 37 each, and this does not take your Grimoire over the next 10% barrier so you're stuck with that. Your spells now can be cast to last for over 7 hours, 6h45m in the case of these two Combined spells.

I think I just won "munchkin of the week" award!

I read somewhere that the sorcery (grimoire) skill boosted with magic or situational modifiers only improves the possibility of casting the spell with success, not the intensity of the spell.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I read somewhere that the sorcery (grimoire) skill boosted with magic or situational modifiers only improves the possibility of casting the spell with success, not the intensity of the spell.

That makes sense. Go beat up Loz and take his killjoy award!

It's still damn nice being able to take your INT and POW up to 32-34ish. Enhance POW on its own is awexome for the spell duration.

 

[Deleriad]

I read somewhere that the sorcery (grimoire) skill boosted with magic or situational modifiers only improves the possibility of casting the spell with success, not the intensity of the spell.

There was ruling that situational modifiers such as taking more time do not change the intensity of the spell.

It's debatable whether this ruling applies to Enhance INT et al. The reason being that a skill is based on its base score plus what has been learned. Increasing your INT therefore wouldn't count as providing situational modifier but an actual increase in the skill.

That looks like a judgement call to me.

 

[PhilHibbs]

...and you get 4 combat options. Throw in an Enhance DEX (Bardan's Book - The Army Book gets INT and DEX, as does Talor's The Book of Laughter and Tears) as well and you can get 5 quite easily.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Heh heh. I just thought of another one.

GM: "OK, you all arrive back home after a successful mission, lets work out how many Improvement Rolls you get."

Player: "I'm casting Enhance APP for the bonus IR!"

 

[Chronos]

RAW says, "this reflects the relationship the character has with his community, peers and colleagues, or, if CHA is particularly low, the difficulty of attempting to improve one’s capabilities without the assistance of others."

I would argue that if one were to attempt this sort of munchkinnery, the effect of the Enhance (APP) would have to have been in effect the entire period of time during which the IRs were earned. That could be a lot of recasting.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I would argue that if one were to attempt this sort of munchkinnery, the effect of the Enhance (APP) would have to have been in effect the entire period of time during which the IRs were earned. That could be a lot of recasting.

I'd say "for the entire period of downtime between scenarios" - or at least, most of the daylight hours - since it's when they are back home in their community that their CHA is working to their benefit in this way. Oh, and I should have said "Enhance CHA" not "Enhance APP".

If someone 16 INT, 16 POW, and 8 CHA, they could keep up Enhance INT, POW, and CHA effectively indefinitely, each casting lasting over 4 hours. I'd allow that.

 

[Chronos]

Oh, and I should have said "Enhance CHA" not "Enhance APP".

Duh. I should have noticed that. It's really early yet.

If you really want to munchkin it up, you could slap on Enhance (Characteristic) as an Enchantment, perhaps. Then you'd remove the need for it to be repeatedly cast.

 

[PhilHibbs]

If you really want to munchkin it up, you could slap on Enhance (Characteristic) as an Enchantment, perhaps. Then you'd remove the need for it to be repeatedly cast.

Hmmm, now we're talking.

When Enhance POW is cast, your MPs don't change instantly, but they will regenerate up to your new POW, if the spell lasts that long. When the spell expires, do the additional MPs disappear instantly, or do they hang around like Tapped MPs do? Aw, rats, Tap says that the MPs disappear when the spell expires, so that puts the kibosh on that plan. But... if I enhance my POW from 16 to 32, spend 3 MPs on an Enchantment, and then the Enhance spell drops... I suppose the nasty killjoy DM is going to say "No, the MPs are still gone, you go down from 29 to 13 MPs".

Just to clarify what this thread is for - I'm trying to think of abuses of the game system before my players do so I can decide whether to allow it or not.

 

[Harshlax]

Just to clarify what this thread is for - I'm trying to think of abuses of the game system before my players do so I can decide whether to allow it or not.

In that vein, can I run past you what one player in my pcoming game has asked for - and my compromise.

He wants to pay an Yelornan Unicorn Rider. I'mm going to adapt Yelorna from the Pavis and Big Rubble book, using Cults yelmalio etc for ideas and scale. The issue is the unicorn - it's significantly better than even a warhorse. What I had in mind is :require a dedicated POW, and spend 400sp (equivalent to warhorse) to get it. The unicorn will not enter combat, and is not in mindlink at initiate status. It will also only use magics it knows orabilities in the direst straits/to preserve itself.

The bond can deepen as the initiate goes up in rune level, enabling mindspeech, cooperation, and ultimately sharing mp.

What do you think?

edit: oops, spelling! Thed unicorn would be verry nasty...

 

[Loz]

I'm thinking I'd steer well clear of a Thed unicorn... :wink:

 

[Jujitsudave]

There is another thread that talks about the use of horses that actually may have relevance here. This unicorn he may want to use as a mount is a wild magical being, not necessarily a trained mount. This creature as a kind of pet may be totally KEWL, but useless in battle as it will not obey command, buck riders when frightened, etc. Only through devoted training and time would such a thing learn to trust it's master and even longer to use it as a kind of warhorse.

 

[Harshlax]

To explain a bit further - the unicorn would behave as a riding horse to begin with, but his yelornan is mainly a horse archer anyway. She doesn't intend to get into melee generally, certainly not risk her unicorn in it.

She would need ride 90% to open up the magical linkage that Yelorna teaches, probably through a Heroquest.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I'm seriously considering halving the effect of Enhance (Characteristic) spells. I think +7 is quite enough for a starting character. After casting Enhance INT and Enhance POW at that level, they might then get +8 due to increased skill, and maybe +9 if they started with INT and POW at 17-18, but it stops there.