Elves and Dwarves?

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

It is this passion for systems like Basic Role-playing (in all it's modified forms) that made me make a mental back-flip of joy when I got the word about a new RQ, and that the system would be OGL.
I immediately began envisioning as a large game with a multitude of settings to choose from. That might be unrealistic, but I hope that it is not, and that the new RQ will succeed in meeting my rather high expectations.

I'm sure that the basic rulebook will be generic enough to allow for that. Most of the genuine weirdness really did come from Glorantha.

I actually don't see why a company who have invested as heavily in D20 as Mongoose so abviously have would bring out an alternative system as easily adaptable as RQ is (and MRQ is touted to be) this far down the line, unless they had plans afoot!

 

[andakitty]

SteveMND, as a matter of curiosity only, you feel that RQ3 is the last real incarnation of BRP? :shock:

How about Elric!/Stormbringer 5? Just out of curiosity, now, remember, I am not jumping on you...

Personally I prefer Stormbringer and consider it to be the last real form of BRP done. RQ3 was OK, but I felt I had to excise too many of the rules to make it playable (such as the ENC rules), Stormbringer not so much. Anyway, just friendly curiosity, why RQ3 as the best of BRP?

 

[Adept]

I do not dispute that they are plants. What I dispute that they look like a miniature ent. I do not find it original, or even amusing, if you take an ent (which is a humanoid tree) and shrink it, and then label it an "elf".
If they looked like an elf, they would be an elf. That is my point.

What I am saying is that they look very un-gloranthan, since the original elves in Glorantha looked like elves.

No pictures or descriptions of a Gloranthan elf I've ever seen has been even close to an ent. That's a term somebody used here, on this forum.

The elves look different, but still rather human. As they grow older even the adventurous ones tend to return to their forests. The young elves look fairly human, and they take on more treelike qualities later in life. What exactly is the problem here? A 150 year old elf woodlord is hardly an adventuring character anyway.

Also the original elves of Glorantha are those found in Greg's stories that go back to the mid sixties. The visuals of RQ 1/2 are the work of some artist at the dawn of roleplaying. Some of the art is good, some less good, and often it's not all that accurate. Check out the earliest pictures (and even descriptions) of dragonewts, and see how much the world has gained over the years.

 

[Archer]

I actually don't see why a company who have invested as heavily in D20 as Mongoose so abviously have would bring out an alternative system as easily adaptable as RQ is (and MRQ is touted to be) this far down the line, unless they had plans afoot!

I agree. And I also hope these plans will be as grand as I imagined them.

On a personal level, I am working hard to complete the basic book detailing my fantasy setting at the moment, and hope to use the RQ rules for it.
If I can only manage to get hold of illustrators (I can do some drawing, but not very professionally), I will make this setting available. If not in print (it cost more than I can afford) then as a downloadable .pdf document with a nice layout.

 

[Archer]

No pictures or descriptions of a Gloranthan elf I've ever seen has been even close to an ent. That's a term somebody used here, on this forum.

The image posted on tis forum, the elf with large eyes and "bark skin", and the image with an elf that has small branches and leaves for hair. Being humanoid, they look rather much like Ents to me, just smaller, and slightly more human.

The elves look different, but still rather human. As they grow older even the adventurous ones tend to return to their forests. The young elves look fairly human, and they take on more treelike qualities later in life. What exactly is the problem here? A 150 year old elf woodlord is hardly an adventuring character anyway.

So, basically they start out as the standard-fare looking elf, except for the eyes, and then only at great age, they start to have branches, and other tree-like characteristics?
I can not really say much, as I have very little information regarding how this changes their appearance both as young and as old, about this at the moment. The descripton much more makes me think about dryads, not elves.

Also the original elves of Glorantha are those found in Greg's stories that go back to the mid sixties. The visuals of RQ 1/2 are the work of some artist at the dawn of roleplaying. Some of the art is good, some less good, and often it's not all that accurate. Check out the earliest pictures (and even descriptions) of dragonewts, and see how much the world has gained over the years.

Ok, I have very little information about teh Dragonewts, as the material I have is RQ3 + Glorantha Bestiary. So it is kind of hard to compare images and descriptions.

From the minis and few images I have seen, they seem like a intresting race to play as a player character though.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

No pictures or descriptions of a Gloranthan elf I've ever seen has been even close to an ent. That's a term somebody used here, on this forum.

Look a bit enty to me...

Wulf

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Surely an Elf's appearance, behaviour and motivation is a function of setting rather than of game mechanics? Are we talking specifically about Gloranthan elves here, or are we talking about a set of stats?

 

[SteveMND]

SteveMND, as a matter of curiosity only, you feel that RQ3 is the last real incarnation of BRP?

I meant in the sense of it being a 'generic' system, as opposed to a sytem designed for a specific setting. 3rd edition came with the little super-thin Glorantha setting book to give, as the game itself said, GMs a taste of an example campaign world RQ 3rd ed could be used for, but it wasn't by any stretch of the imagination setting-specific.

I will admit, however, that I I do have a rather sizable gap in my RP days since when I used to play RQ all the time and when I recently got involved in RPing again, so there may have been another 'generic' version of the BRP system, but I'm not aware of one.

 

[andakitty]

Ah, a slight misunderstanding there. I agree, RQ3 was the most generic of the BRP systems (although I don't think the most playable, necessarily). I will always wonder why Chaosium didn't continue to develop BRP as a generic system, as they seemed to be doing with Worlds of Wonder back in the early 80's. That is the multi-genre pack that came out several years before GURPS.

 

[Archer]

Surely an Elf's appearance, behaviour and motivation is a function of setting rather than of game mechanics? Are we talking specifically about Gloranthan elves here, or are we talking about a set of stats?

We are talking about the archetypical elf, and about how Gloranthan elves looks like (should look like).
Game mechanics does not factor into it.

 

[Archer]

Ah, a slight misunderstanding there. I agree, RQ3 was the most generic of the BRP systems (although I don't think the most playable, necessarily). I will always wonder why Chaosium didn't continue to develop BRP as a generic system, as they seemed to be doing with Worlds of Wonder back in the early 80's. That is the multi-genre pack that came out several years before GURPS.

They had economical problems, and they put all their cards into the one license and brand they actually made a larger amount of money from. I do not think Chaosium yet has recovered completely from their economic crisis, as can be seen in that they continue to push CoC, while mostly ignoring Stormbringer (or at least have an extremely slow publishing rate).

 

[Archer]

Look a bit enty to me...

Wulf

"a bit". LOL.
I think that was quite an understatement
An ent shrunk in size.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Surely an Elf's appearance, behaviour and motivation is a function of setting rather than of game mechanics? Are we talking specifically about Gloranthan elves here, or are we talking about a set of stats?

We are talking about the archetypical elf, and about how Gloranthan elves looks like (should look like).
Game mechanics does not factor into it.

I don't really see why what Gloranthan elves look like (or are) should affect the appearance (or nature) of elves in any other hypothetical RQ setting then. In fact, the only thing they would have in common is the stats, assuming you don't modify them to suit your setting. The RQ rules are pure mechanics and should not dictate how an elf looks. I'd be very surprised if the elf we're going to see in the rules is not reasonably generic, with a different description appearing in the Glorantha book. Remember - these guys want you to use RQ in this kind of fashion.

So you can quite happily ignore everything that's been written here about Gloranthan elves. Result.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

So you can quite happily ignore everything that's been written here about Gloranthan elves. Result.

The OP specifically asked about Gloranthan Elves (and Dwarves), so we are talking about Gloranthan Elves.

Wulf

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

So you can quite happily ignore everything that's been written here about Gloranthan elves. Result.

The OP specifically asked about Gloranthan Elves (and Dwarves), so we are talking about Gloranthan Elves.

Wulf

That's fair and I'm happy to stand corrected on that point.

His concern seemed to me to then become more a case of using RQ elves in a more generic setting. Just trying to help....

 

[Archer]

I don't really see why what Gloranthan elves look like (or are) should affect the appearance (or nature) of elves in any other hypothetical RQ setting then. In fact, the only thing they would have in common is the stats, assuming you don't modify them to suit your setting. The RQ rules are pure mechanics and should not dictate how an elf looks. I'd be very surprised if the elf we're going to see in the rules is not reasonably generic, with a different description appearing in the Glorantha book. Remember - these guys want you to use RQ in this kind of fashion.

So you can quite happily ignore everything that's been written here about Gloranthan elves. Result.

Of course it does not matter for other RQ settings. But I would like to try and sell Glorantha as a setting to my players, and that will be near impossible if their two favorite races (elves and dwarves) are extremely strange, so much changed that they should not even be called elves or dwarves anymore, because they have left the fantasy archetype behind a long ago.

His concern seemed to me to then become more a case of using RQ elves in a more generic setting. Just trying to help....

Your help is appreciated. And as for using Gloranthan elves, see above.

 

[Adept]

Well, with regards to the elves... perhaps it's just that the special effects technology finally caught up with Stafford's vision of how he really wanted to present Glorantha: A New Hope all those thirty-odd years ago?

Good Star Wars metaphor. The originals were good, watchable and... original. The newer versions are shite. Very good metaphor.
Wulf

I can't believe I'm hearing this. Are you saying all the stuff that's been produced for HeroWars & HeroQuest are crap? Thunder Rebels alone is a strong contender for the best RPG book ever. That's how one does a culture book with stuff relevant to actual play.

We've finally gotten Sartar fleshed out, and are starting to get the full picture on the Lunar Empire. This is a glorious time to be a Glorantha gamer.

[Personally I find the Unspoken Word material even better, but that doesn't mean the offiscial HeroQuest stuff would be bad. Unspoken Word is just even better, and their stuff builds on the offiscial products.]

 

[Adept]

Exactly. And if the setting doesn't adapt to suit the audience, it'll lose it. And like it or lump it, the audience, and the sales figures, were massively higher for the old vision of RuneQuest. That is where the popular imagery and writing was. People just haven't bought into the new Glorantha.
Wulf

Most people seem to think this was because RQ2 Glorantha was strongly tied to Glorantha. When Avalon Hill did their RQ3 version that was a generic fantasy game, and and published generic Alternative Earth stuff that connection was lost. A large part of the death of RQ was also the fact that Avalon Hill overpriced the books terribly, timed the products terribly and published a lot of crap along with the good stuff (Daughter of Darkness springs to mind...)

If you are saying (as you seem to be) that RQ died because elves got leaves in their hair then you are the first person I've ever heard say that.

 

[Adept]

So, basically they start out as the standard-fare looking elf, except for the eyes, and then only at great age, they start to have branches, and other tree-like characteristics?
I can not really say much, as I have very little information regarding how this changes their appearance both as young and as old, about this at the moment. The descripton much more makes me think about dryads, not elves.
<snip>
From the minis and few images I have seen, they seem like a intresting race to play as a player character though.

On Glorantha elves and dryads are very closely related. Both are members of the "marching aldryami", and see themselves as kin to the trees of the forest. They are the hands and mind of the goddess Aldrya.

Dragonewts, btw, are very much a species that was never intended for player characters. Their minds are so alien that no offiscial guides for their behaviour has ever been given. With dragonewts, expect the unexpected. If you find a group of dragonewts dancing in the shallow water of a river crossing, wearing bee's nests on their heads and hissing a song that makes your head hurt... well, that's pretty normal.

They are what hatches from dragon eggs on Glorantha. A Dragonewt is immortal, and develops slowly through many stages. Death, for them, is just a minor inconvinience, as they will be reborn in a few days from their egg. The best theory is, I think, that they start with no personality, and develop a strange draconic one as they slowly mature over the centuries.

 

[Adept]

Look a bit enty to me...

Wulf

"a bit". LOL.
I think that was quite an understatement
An ent shrunk in size.

It's not a very good picture (the armour & sword are extreme crude), but an ent? An ent is a walking tree that is hardly humanoid by any sense of the word. The creature on the cover is wearing armour (or bark) and wielding a sword in it's human like hands.

(if case you can't tell from the small picture, the elf is _wearing_ armour made from bark. That's not his skin)