Dual Wield
- Thread starter Arkat
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Utgardloki
Mongoose
Personally, I think a person should be able to fight with a weapon in her off hand, at a -50% penalty. That is harsher than the rules as written, but I'll house rule it.
I also would allow a person to take Off Hand <weapon> as a specialization, which could mitigate this penalty. Thus someone with 90% sword skill using a sword in her off hand would take a -50% penalty, but if she has 45% specialization, she can still fight at 85%.
I have a Two-Weapon Fighting advantage, but making it a specialization skill also fits the RQ system.
I also would allow a person to take Off Hand <weapon> as a specialization, which could mitigate this penalty. Thus someone with 90% sword skill using a sword in her off hand would take a -50% penalty, but if she has 45% specialization, she can still fight at 85%.
I have a Two-Weapon Fighting advantage, but making it a specialization skill also fits the RQ system.
Im houseruling that you must have the combined stats for both weapons if you are going to attack with a weapon in the off hand - so 2 bastards swords needs 26 str, 18 dex or penalties apply.
Plus off hand skill seems fair (as previously), i would start that at the better of basic (ie Dex + STR) or half actual skill. I would treat shield bash in the same way - the one weapon for which you have an attack and a parry skill.
Plus off hand skill seems fair (as previously), i would start that at the better of basic (ie Dex + STR) or half actual skill. I would treat shield bash in the same way - the one weapon for which you have an attack and a parry skill.
Usually force the off hand weapon to start with a 5% base
But in reality a second weapon would be learnt and practised as part of a style of combat. The two weapons would be learnt in tandem and used to support each other.
ie Foil/rapier and maingauche.
Oh well its fantasy I suppose
But in reality a second weapon would be learnt and practised as part of a style of combat. The two weapons would be learnt in tandem and used to support each other.
ie Foil/rapier and maingauche.
But a bastard sword is more or less a broad sword with an extended grip for one or two handed use. Using one in each hand seems odd, as you'ld lose the real flexibility of the weapon using it one handed.
Oh well its fantasy I suppose
Durand Durand
Banded Mongoose
I like the two weapon style thingy myself, so learning two-sword, axe and dagger or such appeals. Finding a good way to simulate it is a problem. I tend to stick to old solutions. As per Old RQ (ORQ), I'd make LH & RH skills seperate. Since we now use one skil for attack and parry, I'd make the off hand (whichever) take a penalty on attacks but not parry.
Whichever stance you take, there are flaws to each approach.
DD
Whichever stance you take, there are flaws to each approach.
DD
Exubae said:Usually force the off hand weapon to start with a 5% base
But in reality a second weapon would be learnt and practised as part of a style of combat. The two weapons would be learnt in tandem and used to support each other.
ie Foil/rapier and maingauche.
But a bastard sword is more or less a broad sword with an extended grip for one or two handed use. Using one in each hand seems odd, as you'ld lose the real flexibility of the weapon using it one handed.
Oh well its fantasy I suppose
Well, let's see, My WK Combat Card lists 5 weapon types, one of which is "Case of Rapier", or dual rapiers. Most of my fellows in the Guild also train both hands fairly close, and most will train for an off hand weapon (all new ones will, as the authorization process has changed and now requires an off-hand for "basic rapier").
A -50% penalty would make case basically impossible for newer fighters; it isn't. People with only a few dozen hours of training are able to begin to use case effectively. (note the effectively, not well.)
You're as likely to get stabbed with the off hand weapon as the on-hand.
At least by those who have trained.
Dual weapon use and stance:
Just a little point not a rules issue unless your house rules'ing it, as its not be consider in any of the editions.
Also you can't Fleche (charge) as well.
I Suppose its easier to present two guards with two weapons.
The long and the short of it being: two weapons are used differently from a single, body position is different, arcs and maneouvering of weapons different.
These changes modify both your maneoverability, defense, and attack - in essence a different style of combat.
Paul
Just a little point not a rules issue unless your house rules'ing it, as its not be consider in any of the editions.
For example using a case of rapier your present a larger target (your front) to your 'main' opponent as opposed to single rapier where his target is your side.
Also you can't Fleche (charge) as well.
I Suppose its easier to present two guards with two weapons.
The long and the short of it being: two weapons are used differently from a single, body position is different, arcs and maneouvering of weapons different.
These changes modify both your maneoverability, defense, and attack - in essence a different style of combat.
Paul
Exubae said:
Most of the fighters i've known use the same stances and moves with case as with rapier and dagger. Including one of the Tattershall guys. The difference is reach, not as much stance.
I use a 3/4 on stance with case or dagger. I'm only full on with cloak and rapier or cloak and dagger.
Single sword, in order to follow the historical masters, you almost never bring the non-sword hand back anyway, so you're usually 3/4 on. And most of them recommend the use of the off hand to parry; EXCEPTION for Spanish style... and Spanish is a single sword style anyway. (And quite effective, too... though only practical for duels...)
The Fleché isn't a terribly bright idea with rapier; you've traded accuracy and defense for a powerful attack. When it works, it's spectacularly potent...
For weapons like axes and maces, the biomechanics are not going to allow terribly much less frontage than 3/4-on stances; getting a good swing on an ax, broadsword, or mace requires one rotate the entire body. A pure-arm strike is weak; get the knees, abdomen, hips and knees involved, and you can literally knock a man over... been on both ends.
Now, knife fighting IS very different... and olympic fencing styles owe far more to knife fighting than to more massive weapons.
I agree, easy to avoid as well...
One of the best aspect of fencing... is getting to work out, how your opponent thinks and reacts, building on his patterns and responses, till you can more or less predict his reaction or draw him into a mistake... its wicked almost like chess - its a shame there are no rpg combat systems that can emulate the beats and slides, guard changes, as you try to pick apart style... it is really wicked.
Used Foil, Epee, Epee with dagger, tried duel Epee, a bit of Sabre (didn't enjoy sabre- standing two foot from my opponentl trying smack him round the head, and avoid being smacked back...)
Must say I prefer one weapon (but two does give a def advantage)
Sorry went a bit off topic...
Two weapon use is very different from single weapon use, both in defensive, and offencesive action
Exubae:
With olympic-style weapons, yes, it might be; I've only fenced with olympic weapons twice; they are light, usually taught 1-handed (the off hand used solely for balance), and taught with a 1/4th on stance (body center line points 75 degrees off target; sometimes as much as full-off aka 90 degrees...). And they react NOTHING like a rapier, let alone a broadsword. More on that later.
With historical baited rapier, no, it isn't, since the open hand is used as a parrying device as a default; you can't do that save in 3/4 on to full-on stances. The second weapon thus makes far, far less difference.
It's later...
Double-Epee (AKA Musketeer), triple-Epee and Schlager are fairly close to baited rapier in weight, but the response is somewhat different. I have an oval-schlager, 40", that I use as my off-hand sword, with my hanwei 36" practical rapier (a baited blade with a built in tip blunt). I've used a wide variety of practical rapiers and schlagers... oval and diamond, 34" to 44"... I've even used a baited shamsheer. None of them felt like the double epee, and it felt nothing like the foil. Them foils will teach a man deadly-to-himself errors...
For historical broadsword C&T, two weapons is the norm: Sword and Shield is the default taught technique; single sword is derivative, AND the biomechanics prevent much adjustment if one is to maintain the power swing. Twin swords versus sword-n-board is not much adjustment, but it is an adjustment. Twin swords is actually easier than sword and dagger, however! (With twin swords, you just alternate coil-recoil/molinet, and you can get incredible amounts of hurt going. Spectacular to watch, bloody fast, and you can wind up being hit several times before you can fall! I've been on the receiving end of this ONE TIME... Sir Phelan Swordbreaker, KSCA, beating me mercilessly... and it is capable of rendering a concussion through the heavily padded 14ga steel helm.) I know three guys who can do it, two of whom are also Knights within the SCA.
I've been fortunate to get to observe several of the best KSCA's training sessions on combat biomechanics; they overlap Tattershalls' fencing biomechanics. Both match the biomechanics of Kendo fairly well, too.
With olympic-style weapons, yes, it might be; I've only fenced with olympic weapons twice; they are light, usually taught 1-handed (the off hand used solely for balance), and taught with a 1/4th on stance (body center line points 75 degrees off target; sometimes as much as full-off aka 90 degrees...). And they react NOTHING like a rapier, let alone a broadsword. More on that later.
With historical baited rapier, no, it isn't, since the open hand is used as a parrying device as a default; you can't do that save in 3/4 on to full-on stances. The second weapon thus makes far, far less difference.
It's later...
Double-Epee (AKA Musketeer), triple-Epee and Schlager are fairly close to baited rapier in weight, but the response is somewhat different. I have an oval-schlager, 40", that I use as my off-hand sword, with my hanwei 36" practical rapier (a baited blade with a built in tip blunt). I've used a wide variety of practical rapiers and schlagers... oval and diamond, 34" to 44"... I've even used a baited shamsheer. None of them felt like the double epee, and it felt nothing like the foil. Them foils will teach a man deadly-to-himself errors...
For historical broadsword C&T, two weapons is the norm: Sword and Shield is the default taught technique; single sword is derivative, AND the biomechanics prevent much adjustment if one is to maintain the power swing. Twin swords versus sword-n-board is not much adjustment, but it is an adjustment. Twin swords is actually easier than sword and dagger, however! (With twin swords, you just alternate coil-recoil/molinet, and you can get incredible amounts of hurt going. Spectacular to watch, bloody fast, and you can wind up being hit several times before you can fall! I've been on the receiving end of this ONE TIME... Sir Phelan Swordbreaker, KSCA, beating me mercilessly... and it is capable of rendering a concussion through the heavily padded 14ga steel helm.) I know three guys who can do it, two of whom are also Knights within the SCA.
I've been fortunate to get to observe several of the best KSCA's training sessions on combat biomechanics; they overlap Tattershalls' fencing biomechanics. Both match the biomechanics of Kendo fairly well, too.
Tend to use foils only as a training weapon, you can get away with using just a face mask, though you have to watch your arm pit.
Can't stand wearing a plast and jacket in the summer to bloomin' hot.
Must admit to hating competition foil-fencing - folk rely on the flimsy build of the foil to flick the point. Prefer to see a good flex on a hit.
Epee is good, has a nice feel and weight - foil is horribly light - but if you fence with out plast/jack you end up with bruises on your bruises.
On the frontal presentation, if your fighting some one, with single weapons who trains with two alot they tend to drop their far shoulder down and present a larger target.
Toyed with Kendo, but the club was eventually closed down
Not used a rapier - is the edge used? or is it still point orientated.
Played with re-enactment broad swords, but your pulling blows and following set routines so it lacks any dynamism.
Paul
Rapier: Mostly tip, but edge used for push/draw, and recently the SCA has authorized using pulled percussive cuts in limited circumstances. I've gotten no serious injuries under SCA WK Rapier rules; we do reduced contact, but there IS a huge lot of dynamism.
Broadsword: The non-sca reenactment group I was with for a while used both baited blade and reinforced boffer. RB is just about perfect mass, and the bruises are not bad. Take the PVC framed boffers, but use a wooden dowel inside the PVC. This makes the mass right, and the stiffness about right. Unlike SCA Rattan, the Pipe-Insulation foam leaves shallow and wide bruises on a truly potent hit, but you get just the same overall force delivery. You can do unscripted and very dynamic free-fight with these, given a decent helmet and at least a gambeson and leather gorget. I'd recommend leather on the arms and legs, but it's not essential for safety, merely for comfort.
Broadsword: The non-sca reenactment group I was with for a while used both baited blade and reinforced boffer. RB is just about perfect mass, and the bruises are not bad. Take the PVC framed boffers, but use a wooden dowel inside the PVC. This makes the mass right, and the stiffness about right. Unlike SCA Rattan, the Pipe-Insulation foam leaves shallow and wide bruises on a truly potent hit, but you get just the same overall force delivery. You can do unscripted and very dynamic free-fight with these, given a decent helmet and at least a gambeson and leather gorget. I'd recommend leather on the arms and legs, but it's not essential for safety, merely for comfort.
